The Ayton Plan

[Covert Rain]

Could be Connie Hawkins. Hawk had 2120 rebounds in his first 228 games with the Suns. He easily made the points. That would put Hawk making it in about 213 games just based on his averages that year.

I was going to say Amare, Hawkins or Davis just throwing some names out there.

 

[95pro]

I’m watching the knicks and warriors. I’m watching Draymond not even attempt to looks at the rim. We know he’s not looking for his shot 90 percent of the time and likes to make the smart pass.

I’m wondering if the suns are trying to make ayton our draymond, it’s more suited to aytons lack of skill set.

 

[Finito]

I would guess Amare or Alvan. Probably Alvan.

Everybody loves to compare Ayton to Amare but Amare was flat out pathetic on defense and the boards. For all his size strength and athleticism he never even averaged double digits once in his career in rebounds.

 

[Finito]

I’m watching the knicks and warriors. I’m watching Draymond not even attempt to looks at the rim. We know he’s not looking for his shot 90 percent of the time and likes to make the smart pass.

I’m wondering if the suns are trying to make ayton our draymond, it’s more suited to aytons lack of skill set.

Huh

Ayton plays nothing like Draymond and we def lean on Ayton when we need to offensively it’s just not every night. You’ll never GS just feed Draymond the way we did tonight

 

[95pro]

Everybody loves to compare Ayton to Amare but Amare was flat out pathetic on defense and the boards. For all his size strength and athleticism he never even averaged double digits once in his career in rebounds.

Huh

Size and strength? He was an undersized center, even Lou Amundson was taller in person if you went to games.

 

[Finito]

Huh

Size and strength? He was an undersized center, even Lou Amundson was taller in person if you went to games.

Right cause height determines how strong and athletic you are. He was 6’10 let’s not act like he was a little guy

 

[Covert Rain]

Huh

Size and strength? He was an undersized center, even Lou Amundson was taller in person if you went to games.

Who was a center? Amare never was a center. He was a PF asked to play center because they played small ball so often. Ayton is no more a PF than Amare was a center. However, when it came to playing on the block against other PFs Amare could hold his own. He was no weakling. Night in and night out he abused most opposing defenders. He was a beast.

No question Ayton is the better defender and rebounder but he is not as athletic as Amare. He isn't as strong either. That doesn't mean Ayton IS NOT athletic but he doesn't play above the rim like Amare did. That's why everyone jumps out of their seat with Ayton puts it down. Most of the time he puts it up.

Everybody loves to compare Ayton to Amare but Amare was flat out pathetic on defense and the boards. For all his size strength and athleticism he never even averaged double digits once in his career in rebounds.

Who is comparing them? I don't see many people doing that unless they are talking about relative draft position. One was a PF and the other a center. Yes they both played in the FC but two different players. Also, pathetic on the boards? He averaged almost 9 rebounds per game when he played here? Since when is 9 rebounds per game pathetic? That would have put him somewhere between 11 to 15 most years when he was at his peak here. In today's NBA he would be #11. Then again, he was often matched up against taller centers when playing small ball which put him at a huge disadvantage. Had he played less at center I bet he would of averaged at least two more which would have made him easily top 10 during his time here.

 

[Mainstreet]

The article by Gerald Bourguet is a good read which includes video about Ayton's development.

I especially liked the first video.

Bourguet Breakdown: Deandre Ayton's immense growth in the Suns' dominant pick-and-roll - PHNX Sports

In Tuesday night's overtime win over the Portland Trail Blazers, Deandre Ayton's Herculean return to action was the big headline.

gophnx.com

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Everybody loves to compare Ayton to Amare but Amare was flat out pathetic on defense and the boards. For all his size strength and athleticism he never even averaged double digits once in his career in rebounds.

True. But he also played beside a high volume rebounder in Marion. Ayton has zero competition for rebounds. On the defense you’re right, zero comparison.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

The article by Gerald Bourguet is a good read which includes video about Ayton's development.

I especially liked the first video.

Bourguet Breakdown: Deandre Ayton's immense growth in the Suns' dominant pick-and-roll - PHNX Sports

In Tuesday night's overtime win over the Portland Trail Blazers, Deandre Ayton's Herculean return to action was the big headline.

gophnx.com

Good article. He’s definitely continued to develop this year. Hope it continues its upward arc.

 

[Mainstreet]

Good article. He’s definitely continued to develop this year. Hope it continues its upward arc.

Just a thought and I haven't tracked it, but perhaps Ayton plays better when he is rested.

When he is fresh he seems to play well. I do think Ayton will keep getting better with the occasional blip.

 

[Finito]

Who was a center? Amare never was a center. He was a PF asked to play center because they played small ball so often. Ayton is no more a PF than Amare was a center. However, when it came to playing on the block against other PFs Amare could hold his own. He was no weakling. Night in and night out he abused most opposing defenders. He was a beast.

No question Ayton is the better defender and rebounder but he is not as athletic as Amare. He isn't as strong either. That doesn't mean Ayton IS NOT athletic but he doesn't play above the rim like Amare did. That's why everyone jumps out of their seat with Ayton puts it down. Most of the time he puts it up.


Who is comparing them? I don't see many people doing that unless they are talking about relative draft position. One was a PF and the other a center. Yes they both played in the FC but two different players. Also, pathetic on the boards? He averaged almost 9 rebounds per game when he played here? Since when is 9 rebounds per game pathetic? That would have put him somewhere between 11 to 15 most years when he was at his peak here. In today's NBA he would be #11. Then again, he was often matched up against taller centers when playing small ball which put him at a huge disadvantage. Had he played less at center I bet he would of averaged at least two more which would have made him easily top 10 during his time here.

He’s compared to Amare all the time on this board especially on offense. People look at Amare through rose colored glasses.

No sorry no way you can get 9 rebounds for a guy that big,athletic, quick and strong is flat out not good. It’s not and in 8 seasons here he only got 9 in three of those seasons the other 5 were 8.

Now do I blame Amare for his lack of rebounding and defense? Nope not one bit. You just have to look at the coach that brought him up. D’Antoni didn’t even try and coach that end so he never asked him to get better at those things that’s why I don’t hold it against him.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

He’s compared to Amare all the time on this board especially on offense. People look at Amare through rose colored glasses.

No sorry no way you can get 9 rebounds for a guy that big,athletic, quick and strong is flat out not good. It’s not and in 8 seasons here he only got 9 in three of those seasons the other 5 were 8.

Now do I blame Amare for his lack of rebounding and defense? Nope not one bit. You just have to look at the coach that brought him up. D’Antoni didn’t even try and coach that end so he never asked him to get better at those things that’s why I don’t hold it against him.

Amare also played alongside Marion who averaged between 9 -12 rebounds per game. The biggest competition for boards that Ayton has is book at 4.9/game. If Ayton had a Marion who took 2 rebounds per game away from him he’d be at . . . 9/game.

 

[Phrazbit]

Amare also played alongside Marion who averaged between 9 -12 rebounds per game. The biggest competition for boards that Ayton has is book at 4.9/game. If Ayton had a Marion who took 2 rebounds per game away from him he’d be at . . . 9/game.

I don't think it is that simple. Ayton also boxes out, creates rebounds for teammates, he is excellent at tipping the ball out to the perimeter or to himself. Amare didn't do any of that well.

Ayton could use some of Amare's aggression, that is for sure, Amare was far more confident about using his athletic ability to score, he could play finesse and play really physical... unfortunately it only translated to his offense.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I don't think it is that simple. Ayton also boxes out, creates rebounds for teammates, he is excellent at tipping the ball out to the perimeter or to himself. Amare didn't do any of that well.

Ayton could use some of Amare's aggression, that is for sure, Amare was far more confident about using his athletic ability to score, he could play finesse and play really physical... unfortunately it only translated to his offense.

And Ayton doesn't yell AND ONE every time he goes to the basket which always pissed off the refs so DA has a huge advantage when it comes to technical fouls too.

 

[elindholm]

I don't think it is that simple. Ayton also boxes out, creates rebounds for teammates, he is excellent at tipping the ball out to the perimeter or to himself. Amare didn't do any of that well.

Ayton could use some of Amare's aggression, that is for sure, Amare was far more confident about using his athletic ability to score, he could play finesse and play really physical... unfortunately it only translated to his offense.

Ayton is fundamentally a better rebounder than Stoudemire was. It's not like Stoudemire's numbers spiked once he no longer had Marion alongside him.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Ayton is fundamentally a better rebounder than Stoudemire was. It's not like Stoudemire's numbers spiked once he no longer had Marion alongside him.

Interestingly his rebounds per 36 minutes actually got worse when he no longer had Marion around.

 

[Hoop Head]

Amare also played alongside Marion who averaged between 9 -12 rebounds per game. The biggest competition for boards that Ayton has is book at 4.9/game. If Ayton had a Marion who took 2 rebounds per game away from him he’d be at . . . 9/game.

You can look up rebound percentage and in Amare's 4th year he grabbed 10.1% of offensive rebounds and 23.3% of defensive boards for a total of 17.0%. Compared to Ayton's 10.3 offensive and 26.4 defensive for a total of 18.5%. That's really not all that different.

I used Amare's 4th full season rather than his actual 4th year which was limited to 3 games. So he grabbed those boards coming off microfracture as well.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

And Ayton doesn't yell AND ONE every time he goes to the basket which always pissed off the refs so DA has a huge advantage when it comes to technical fouls too.

Oh no, Ayton does it a ton too. He’s just not as loud. Start listening for it. It’s common. And watch him look at the ref after nearly every fade away where he expects a foul called. He’s not as aggressive about it as amare, but it’s there. I was just thinking about it again last night as he said it and complained and I’m thinking “you go up soft big guy, what do you expect they are going to call when you look like you’re purposefully avoiding contact?”

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Ayton is fundamentally a better rebounder than Stoudemire was. It's not like Stoudemire's numbers spiked once he no longer had Marion alongside him.

When Marion was replaced by shaq who was pulling down 9 boards? Or post surgery not nearly as athletic amare in NY?

 

[Phrazbit]

When Marion was replaced by shaq who was pulling down 9 boards? Or post surgery not nearly as athletic amare in NY?

Those Suns teams with Marion and Amare were in the bottom 5 in rebound differential every year. Ayton gets more boards individually and his team rebounds better than those Suns. I just don't see any comparison. Amare got rebounds that went his way and even those he often let the opposition beat him to by not boxing out, Ayton does not have those problems, just watch how many times someone like Crowder or Cam get a board because Ayton is holding 2 guys back.

You are right about Ayton looking at the ref for calls, he isn't as bad as Amare was but he does his share of griping.

Another ying and yang with Ayton and Amare is in offensive transition. I think part of Amare's poor rebounding was knack for wanting to attack in transition. Amare would often be the first guy across mid court, looking to cause a mismatch in transition or get an easy lob. Ayton is typically the last guy to enter the frame often because he got the board and looked to dump it off to a guard but also because he just doesn't have that aggressive mindset on offense... and I think Amare was generally a faster player, freakishly fast for a guy his size.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Those Suns teams with Marion and Amare were in the bottom 5 in rebound differential every year. Ayton gets more boards individually and his team rebounds better than those Suns. I just don't see any comparison. Amare got rebounds that went his way and even those he often let the opposition beat him to by not boxing out, Ayton does not have those problems, just watch how many times someone like Crowder or Cam get a board because Ayton is holding 2 guys back.

You are right about Ayton looking at the ref for calls, he isn't as bad as Amare was but he does his share of griping.

Another ying and yang with Ayton and Amare is in offensive transition. I think part of Amare's poor rebounding was knack for wanting to attack in transition. Amare would often be the first guy across mid court, looking to cause a mismatch in transition or get an easy lob. Ayton is typically the last guy to enter the frame often because he got the board and looked to dump it off to a guard but also because he just doesn't have that aggressive mindset on offense... and I think Amare was generally a faster player, freakishly fast for a guy his size.

Agree with all this. But I think Hoop Head’s rebounding percentage stats above are salient:

“You can look up rebound percentage and in Amare's 4th year he grabbed 10.1% of offensive rebounds and 23.3% of defensive boards for a total of 17.0%. Compared to Ayton's 10.3 offensive and 26.4 defensive for a total of 18.5%”

 

[Phrazbit]

Agree with all this. But I think Hoop Head’s rebounding percentage stats above are salient:

“You can look up rebound percentage and in Amare's 4th year he grabbed 10.1% of offensive rebounds and 23.3% of defensive boards for a total of 17.0%. Compared to Ayton's 10.3 offensive and 26.4 defensive for a total of 18.5%”

That was the best individual rebounding season of Amare's career (the Suns as a team were still near the bottom of the league) and even then he falls short of the numbers Ayton has been putting up year in and year out.

I don't think it's even close.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

That was the best individual rebounding season of Amare's career (the Suns as a team were still near the bottom of the league) and even then he falls short of the numbers Ayton has been putting up year in and year out.

I don't think it's even close.

Eh you could be right.

 

[Covert Rain]

He’s compared to Amare all the time on this board especially on offense. People look at Amare through rose colored glasses.

No sorry no way you can get 9 rebounds for a guy that big,athletic, quick and strong is flat out not good. It’s not and in 8 seasons here he only got 9 in three of those seasons the other 5 were 8.

Now do I blame Amare for his lack of rebounding and defense? Nope not one bit. You just have to look at the coach that brought him up. D’Antoni didn’t even try and coach that end so he never asked him to get better at those things that’s why I don’t hold it against him.

You either didn’t read what I wrote in terms of where he ranked with peers, where he would rank today or who he was paired with.