The Ayton Plan

[Hoop Head]

There are many here that have been pushing this narrative far more than you. Why do you have to take things so personally?

Bitching about Jalen Smith has become the current fad for people that are so used to the losing they spend energy complaining about a traded role player. Nobody thought Jalen was with anything for a year and a half until he had a good stretch of 2 weeks This year. Now he’s a lost integral piece of our future? You’d think we have no hope moving forward.

A lot of us called out the error when the option was declined and it was amplified when he showed he could play.

I don't think anyone is saying it's as big of a deal as you're making it out to be.

I said you had the view of a homer before because you refuse to accept that JJ and the team can make a mistake. Failing to pick up Stix option was a mistake. They did their best to salvage that mistake by trading him for Craig but it shouldn't have come to that. They could have resigned Craig and picked up Stix option, putting us in a better position going forward.

 

[Finito]

Stop the fight...stop the fight!!!!

Chap it’s over bud. It’s not even that serious

 

[AzStevenCal]

A lot of us called out the error when the option was declined and it was amplified when he showed he could play.

I don't think anyone is saying it's as big of a deal as you're making it out to be.

I said you had the view of a homer before because you refuse to accept that JJ and the team can make a mistake. Failing to pick up Stix option was a mistake. They did their best to salvage that mistake by trading him for Craig but it shouldn't have come to that. They could have resigned Craig and picked up Stix option, putting us in a better position going forward.

Are you sure? I haven't researched this at all but I thought that almost all of the Stix conversation on this board was about how stupid it was to draft him in the first place and that not picking up his option was just further proof JJ had blown it? I remember Mainstreet still in Jalen's corner but that's about it. To me the conversation didn't shift to how stupid it was to let the option expire until injuries/Covid created a need at the center spot.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Settle down gents. It should be all roses right now.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Are you sure? I haven't researched this at all but I thought that almost all of the Stix conversation on this board was about how stupid it was to draft him in the first place and that not picking up his option was just further proof JJ had blown it? I remember Mainstreet still in Jalen's corner but that's about it. To me the conversation didn't shift to how stupid it was to let the option expire until injuries/Covid created a need at the center spot.

I don’t think your recollection is accurate. I think we were all shocked at not picking up his option after one year understanding it wasn’t enough time to see if he had anything. I got that and I had never been a stix fan.

 

[Hoop Head]

Are you sure? I haven't researched this at all but I thought that almost all of the Stix conversation on this board was about how stupid it was to draft him in the first place and that not picking up his option was just further proof JJ had blown it? I remember Mainstreet still in Jalen's corner but that's about it. To me the conversation didn't shift to how stupid it was to let the option expire until injuries/Covid created a need at the center spot.

I remember being against it for a few reasons. He looked good in Summer League, albeit that is SL, but also it was unprecedented for a team to give up on a lottery pick so early when there weren't serious red flags, like Josh Jackson had shown for example. It also killed any potential trade value he might have had, which was what really bothered me. As we ended up learning later on it made it more difficult to seek value in return due to the limitations of how his next contract can be structured.

Of course that's just me but I remember I wasn't alone in thinking it was a mistake, as Ouchie also seems to recall.

 

[Mainstreet]

Are you sure? I haven't researched this at all but I thought that almost all of the Stix conversation on this board was about how stupid it was to draft him in the first place and that not picking up his option was just further proof JJ had blown it? I remember Mainstreet still in Jalen's corner but that's about it. To me the conversation didn't shift to how stupid it was to let the option expire until injuries/Covid created a need at the center spot.

Yeah, I thought not drafting Haliburton was a mistake (still do) but sometime after summer league Stix converted me into a believer and it was before the Suns didn't pick up his option.

There was a game or two where he flashed his potential and I was sold. The Suns not picking up his option was a mistake.

However, if the Suns had wanted to trade Stix right after summer league I wouldn't have said a word because his showing there did not impress me even though he made All-Summer League.

 

[Finito]

Hey Ayton is playing really well

 

[Carolinacacti]

Jalen will be remembered as the last high first round pick the Suns had the last 10 years.

 

[AZ Native]

Hey Ayton is playing really well

And he’s 24. Huge upside.

 

[Suns_fan69]

And he’s 24. Huge upside.

He's technically still 23. Turns 24 in July.

 

[Finito]

He's technically still 23. Turns 24 in July.

Yikes.

 

[1tinsoldier]

i'm now on board with maxing Ayton. my question was whether he could play with fire. the other night he showed that he doesn't necessarily have to. he had a career night playing with finesse instead of power. had he not missed some chip shots he would have had over 40 while also doing his job on the boards.

he's learned a lot in 3 seasons and there's no reason to believe he won't continue to.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

i'm now on board with maxing Ayton. my question was whether he could play with fire. the other night he showed that he doesn't necessarily have to. he had a career night playing with finesse instead of power. had he not missed some chip shots he would have had over 40 while also doing his job on the boards.

he's learned a lot in 3 seasons and there's no reason to believe he won't continue to.

Not that he should of had to, but he also showed people that he can play and be effective without CP.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Hey Ayton is playing really well

And he’s 24. Huge upside.

I have been thinking about that mid-paint floater a lot recently. DA is working hard on his game and I am here for all of it.

At his age..... I think he deserves some sort of bag that precludes him from supermax territory but gets him paid IMO.

Plus..... We need to extend Cam ASAP. We will need all three when CP3 starts to degrade.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Ayton's identity is now being established. He is a defensive anchor and solid offensive option. He is not the team alpha. He is more Robert Parish than David Robinson. That's ok. We can win championships with that.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Ayton's identity is now being established. He is a defensive anchor and solid offensive option. He is not the team alpha. He is more Robert Parish than David Robinson. That's ok. We can win championships with that.

I think he's closer to mid/late career David Robinson than anyone. Put a Duncan next to him and I think they'd look very similar although I don't know if DA will ever draw the fouls that David did (even later in his career when he declined from 11 to 5 free throws per game).

 

[Hoop Head]

I'd say Ayton is more of a late 20's/early 30's Alonzo Mourning without being the shot blocker Zo was. He's still a defensive anchor that locks down the paint and can be good for 15-20 points a game. Zo's defense extended beyond the paint while I don't recall David Robinson ever leaving the paint defensively, not that the game was as perimeter oriented back then.

 

[Covert Rain]

I'd say Ayton is more of a late 20's/early 30's Alonzo Mourning without being the shot blocker Zo was. He's still a defensive anchor that locks down the paint and can be good for 15-20 points a game. Zo's defense extended beyond the paint while I don't recall David Robinson ever leaving the paint defensively, not that the game was as perimeter oriented back then.

Purely statistically, if you go back to where Ayton is now and the best centers of all time, I think Ayton aligns with Dwight Howard in many categories. If I can find my post where Ayton ranks all time with Centers? I seem to remember that's where he aligned the most with. Although, obviously, their body types are completely different.

 

[Finito]

Purely statistically, if you go back to where Ayton is now and the best centers of all time, I think Ayton aligns with Dwight Howard in many categories. If I can find my post where Ayton ranks all time with Centers? I seem to remember that's where he aligned the most with. Although, obviously, their body types are completely different.

People really forget how good Dwight Howard was before the injuries

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

People really forget how good Dwight Howard was before the injuries

True, but he has never been as talented as Ayton on the offensive end of the floor.

 

[Covert Rain]

True, but he has never been as talented as Ayton on the offensive end of the floor.

Not true. Dwight was the better inside player around the rim and I think Ayton has a better mid-range. However, Howard averaged 16.5 his first 4 years compared to Ayton's 16.3. Ayton's highest average as been 18.2 verses Howard's 20.7 in the first 4. Dwight also had a run of 7 seasons were 6 of them he averaged more than 18 (hitting 20+ 4 times). I would say during comparable stretches overall Dwight was better offensively but didn't have the outside shot that Ayton has. People forget what a beast Dwight Howard was for a spell.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Not true. Dwight was the better inside player around the rim and I think Ayton has a better mid-range. However, Howard averaged 16.5 his first 4 years compared to Ayton's 16.3. Ayton's highest average as been 18.2 verses Howard's 20.7 in the first 4. Dwight also had a run of 7 seasons were 6 of them he averaged more than 18 (hitting 20+ 4 times). I would say during comparable stretches overall Dwight was better offensively but didn't have the outside shot that Ayton has. People forget what a beast Dwight Howard was for a spell.

Dwight never scored as efficiently at the rim as Ayton this year (DH best year at the rim 75%, Ayton this year 79%). Howard was simply more aggressive and an absolute freak athlete. The only reason Ayton isn't averaging more points than Howard in his prime is because he isn't being asked to carry an offensive load. If the offense ran through Ayton more he could easily be averaging 20+ IMO.

 

[Covert Rain]

Dwight never scored as efficiently at the rim as Ayton this year (DH best year at the rim 75%, Ayton this year 79%). Howard was simply more aggressive and an absolute freak athlete. The only reason Ayton isn't averaging more points than Howard in his prime is because he isn't being asked to carry an offensive load. If the offense ran through Ayton more he could easily be averaging 20+ IMO.

Ayton is efficient but before this year his efficiency is because he was fed the ball over 80% of the time. Efficiency offensively is only one aspect. Nobody could stop Howard at the rim. Also, if Ayton could carry the load they would ask him to do that. I don't think Ayton was capable of that until this year where Howard had that from the get go. I think over the long haul Ayton has a better career. However all things being equal (there first 4 years) I give the edge to Howard except for efficiency. If we had had the Ayton during the playoffs and the Ayton this season all 4? There would be no question.

 

[Hoop Head]

Someone I found who compares to Ayton statically and stylistically, although I'd say Ayton is the better defender, is Brad Daughtery. I'd say they have similar roles as well, being the 2nd or 3rd option offensively with a pass first PG.

Here's Ayton's stats through his first 3 seasons...

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And here's Daughtery's through his first 3 seasons...

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