The Ayton Plan

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I've never said he sucked and there's a lot of space in between horrible and flawless.

He shows how dominant he can be in almost every game but he rarely actually dominates the game. Our defense, when CP3 can hold his own, is often incredible and Ayton is a big reason if not the main reason. Which makes those stretches even more inexplicable where he stands around looking lost while the other team grabs offensive board after offensive board.

I think the situation is such that we have to trade him and I don't believe it will make us better. Losing what he has been to date is going to hurt more than a lot of fans realize - losing what he still could become could easily become the worst mistake this franchise has ever made.

OTOH, if he's high all the time (as speculated) and spending most of his energy playing Fortnite or whatever, avoiding his max contract might end up being one of our best decisions. Regardless, I'm disappointed that we failed in making it work even if some/most of it falls on Ayton.

Agree with all of this as well.

 

[AzStevenCal]

When did 15.8/8.7 become great stats? Especially when they’re literally WORSE than his regular season average which was merely good, but not great.

I was talking about the post that showed how effective DA was when he was guarding various players. Those numbers don't show all the times when he simply wasn't guarding anyone.

 

[Mainstreet]

Those great stats by Ayton don't include the times when he gets lost on defense and isn't guarding anyone. Or the times when he loses focus or plays soft allowing the opponent to get the offensive rebound. Ayton wasn't the reason we lost, that was due to the horrible play of CP3. If that was from injury, a big part of the blame falls on Monty too. But Ayton could have made much more of a difference for us in that series.

It was more than CP3 and Ayton that didn't show up for games 6 and 7 against Dallas. At least Paul had a reason although I'm not excusing anyone.

I can't remember a Suns team quitting (giving up) in a playoff game before.

Actually I'm not sure if I have ever seen a Suns team quit in any game before. Blown out, yes, but not quit. There was no organized team play for much of the game. The 3rd quarter was especially bleak. Perhaps it was the realization it would only get worse after trailing by 30 points at halftime.

It was some of the worst basketball I have ever seen. I wish there was a more favorable description. I'm still trying to work through the stages of grief to come to grips with the reality.

 

[AzStevenCal]

It was more than CP3 and Ayton that didn't show up for games 6 and 7 against Dallas. At least Paul had a reason although I'm not excusing anyone.

I can't remember a Suns team quitting (giving up) in a playoff game before.

Actually I'm not sure if I have ever seen a Suns team quit in any game before. Blown out, yes, but not quit. There was no organized team play for much of the game. The 3rd quarter was especially bleak. Perhaps it was the realization it would only get worse after trailing by 30 points at halftime.

It was some of the worst basketball I have ever seen. I wish there was a more favorable description. I'm still trying to work through the stages of grief to come to grips with the reality.

Oh I've seen us quit before but never in a game of such magnitude. But, IMO, "quitting" only impacted the final score, it had nothing to do with the result. And I'm not blaming CP3's effort for the loss, I do believe he gave us everything he was physically capable of giving us.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

It was more than CP3 and Ayton that didn't show up for games 6 and 7 against Dallas. At least Paul had a reason although I'm not excusing anyone.

I can't remember a Suns team quitting (giving up) in a playoff game before.

Actually I'm not sure if I have ever seen a Suns team quit in any game before. Blown out, yes, but not quit. There was no organized team play for much of the game. The 3rd quarter was especially bleak. Perhaps it was the realization it would only get worse after trailing by 30 points at halftime.

It was some of the worst basketball I have ever seen. I wish there was a more favorable description. I'm still trying to work through the stages of grief to come to grips with the reality.

Yup. In 45+ years of watching suns basketball I’ve seen bad hoops, I’ve seen stupid hoops, but before Sunday I can’t recall ever seeing a team that just seemingly gave up. I can no longer make that statement.

 

[Bufalay]

This thread reminds me of when the Suns were trying to trade Amare and Shaq. They're not going to get much for Ayton if they do trade him.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Oh I've seen us quit before but never in a game of such magnitude. But, IMO, "quitting" only impacted the final score, it had nothing to do with the result. And I'm not blaming CP3's effort for the loss, I do believe he gave us everything he was physically capable of giving us.

I’m having a really difficult time reconciling Paul in this series. If he was physically compromised to the point of being as ineffectual as he was (a) it’s on monty to sit him, despite any protestations Paul might have and no matter how poorly Payne was playing; and (b) I pin a lot of responsibility on Paul as well - I understand the competitor in him doesn’t want to sit, but the leader in him has to say “I’m hurting the team, I need to sit.” Anything less than that on Paul’s part is extreme hubris and was detrimental to the team. He was essentially a slab of semi-lifeless flesh out there most of the time.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Interesting to hear talking heads on radio today. They kinda don’t think Ayton is gone but rather suns will let another team set his market and match. They also said they think the play now is to talk to Booker about moving Paul.

 

[AzStevenCal]

This thread reminds me of when the Suns were trying to trade Amare and Shaq. They're not going to get much for Ayton if they do trade him.

I think he'd bring back quite a bit if he were under contract but in our current situation, there is no incentive for DA to agree to a sign and trade so we're limited.

Ayton is restricted, which means we still have some options unless he's willing to play his final year without a new contract - which is very unlikely IMO.

So, if we aren't offered enough to make an S&T desirable, our best option then becomes to match whatever contract DA signs. At which point we could either hope to repair the relationship or move him when the CBA allows for it.

 

[Mainstreet]

Yup. In 45+ years of watching suns basketball I’ve seen bad hoops, I’ve seen stupid hoops, but before Sunday I can’t recall ever seeing a team that just seemingly gave up. I can no longer make that statement.

I'm having a very hard time rationalizing game 7 away. I don't think it can be or should.

It would take some monumental news yet unrevealed to help explain it.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I was talking about the post that showed how effective DA was when he was guarding various players. Those numbers don't show all the times when he simply wasn't guarding anyone.

Gotcha.

 

[Finito]

When did 15.8/8.7 become great stats? Especially when they’re literally WORSE than his regular season average which was merely good, but not great.

Because your factoring in game 2 and 7 don’t act dumb

Your better than this

 

[JerkFace]

He was jettisoned because JJ screwed up in assessing him. His option should have been picked up. He was showing potential to be the 4 we need next to Ayton and replace Crowder. We were forced to trade him to get some value in return after the contract flub.

I’m still not sure he can play the 4 in the NBA, much less in our defense. He does appear to have a bright future as a 5 though. That is where all of his shown potential took place.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Seeing all these proposed Ayton trades, I'd much rather roll the dice with Ayton moving forward.

 

[Bufalay]

I think he'd bring back quite a bit if he were under contract but in our current situation, there is no incentive for DA to agree to a sign and trade so we're limited.

Ayton is restricted, which means we still have some options unless he's willing to play his final year without a new contract - which is very unlikely IMO.

So, if we aren't offered enough to make an S&T desirable, our best option then becomes to match whatever contract DA signs. At which point we could either hope to repair the relationship or move him when the CBA allows for it.

I agree. It's kind of like Joe Johnson signing with Atlanta. Suns lucked out that Diaw turned out to be a good player.

 

[Finito]

Getting in foul trouble doesn’t excuse him though. Weird that you argue that it does. It directly impacts the game. He averaged 15/8.7 in the series. A series in which Paul was clearly compromised and ineffective. We needed more from him and he didn’t provide it. And the narrative seems to be he bailed on the team. Kinda surprised a guy like you that struts around lauding toughness is cool with a player abandoning his squad.

It’s not an excuse but it is the reason and those are two different things.

Oh he quit make no mistake about it, but so did Paul and Booker

If Ayton had come out and said “it’s just basketball not life and death” like Paul said about game 7 this board would of melted down.

Something happened along the way. This team stopped trusting each other on offense and defense, they stopped listening to Monty.

This team was so tight last year and this year. The whole FaceTiming Paul after games he didn’t play in. The pre game warm ups they looked like they loved each other and then nothing.

I’m just lost right now. I’ve never seen anything like it

 

[AzStevenCal]

Seeing all these proposed Ayton trades, I'd much rather roll the dice with Ayton moving forward.

I really don't think we have much of a choice. And it doesn't really matter whether we do it with the hopes of keeping our big man for years to come or just as a stopgap measure so we can get value for him when we do trade him.

 

[Finito]

Well listening to all these podcast just killed me. It’s looking like we got another Stix on our hands.

If we had just signed Ayton last year our options would be 10x better. Since we are limited to a sign and trade he can’t be packaged with other players.

They went over the history of sign and trades and how lopsided they are. You pretty much lose all your leverage in the deal and if your expecting a star in return that really isn’t going to happen.

Ugh

 

[AzStevenCal]

Well listening to all these podcast just killed me. It’s looking like we got another Stix on our hands.

If we had just signed Ayton last year our options would be 10x better. Since we are limited to a sign and trade he can’t be packaged with other players.

They went over the history of sign and trades and how lopsided they are. You pretty much lose all your leverage in the deal and if your expecting a star in return that really isn’t going to happen.

Ugh

Except that DA is a restricted free agent which gives us much more leverage than we had once we declined Smith's option. DA can negotiate with other teams and sign a contact, at which point we will have the right to match that offer and then we're both stuck with each other for a year (or two?).

If we don't match, he walks and we get nothing. Or if he opts to risk it all by playing this next year without a contract, then we're screwed.

 

[elindholm]

If we had just signed Ayton last year our options would be 10x better. Since we are limited to a sign and trade he can’t be packaged with other players.

That can be mainly a cosmetic issue, though. You can work out two simultaneous trades, one of which is with the S&T player and the other of which balances out the talent. It just places more constraints on how the numbers line up.

 

[Mainstreet]

That can be mainly a cosmetic issue, though. You can work out two simultaneous trades, one of which is with the S&T player and the other of which balances out the talent. It just places more constraints on how the numbers line up.

Exactly. All the moves do not have to be constrained in one trade.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Interesting to hear talking heads on radio today. They kinda don’t think Ayton is gone but rather suns will let another team set his market and match. They also said they think the play now is to talk to Booker about moving Paul.

This has to be our plan IMO. Trading Ayton even at the max he can be offered is foolish at this point.

 

[Dr. Jones]

This has to be our plan IMO. Trading Ayton even at the max he can be offered is foolish at this point.

With Ayton's age, and the long history of Pauls inability to hold up over a 2-month playoff, it is our only option IMO unless we are completely out on DeAndre Ayton, his talents, gifts, and struggles at the ripe old age of 23 years old.

I'm not totally ready to move on from that level of talent. He's way too young to be a completed product yet.

 

[Finito]

Interesting to hear talking heads on radio today. They kinda don’t think Ayton is gone but rather suns will let another team set his market and match. They also said they think the play now is to talk to Booker about moving Paul.

Wow.

Well Chris Paul has been known to have a short shelf life wherever he goes. Did he kill this team?

 

[Cheesebeef]

Wow.

Well Chris Paul has been known to have a short shelf life wherever he goes. Did he kill this team?

I’ll say this… Kyle Lowry was man enough to admit he couldn’t go with his hammy after he tried to come back early and the team face planted in his one game back.

They benched him and continued their winning ways. We’ve seen Payne be AWFUL but somehow turn it totally around when pressed into action as a starter. For Paul not to give his team the same chance Lowry did would suck… if true. Because Paul was ATROCIOUS AND KILLED US.