The Ayton Plan

[1tinsoldier]

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

No Suns deal of any significance on the way?

 

[JCSunsfan]

This team has peaked. Need KD or another superstar for any hope at a championship. I hope Jones knows what he's doing.

I do not believe this team has peaked. Cp3 may have. Securing his heir should be our top priority, not dumping Ayton.

 

[Superbone]

Oh ok so you want anybody but Ayton

Got it

Never said that but OK. We should probably only be interested in paying the max to somebody more serious about their craft than their personal entertainment.

 

[Sparky16]

Never said that but OK. We should probably only be interested in paying the max to somebody more serious about their craft than their personal entertainment.

Its telling how none of his teammates are standing on their soap boxes speaking in his defense. They know his production can be easily replaced. This is why I dont give up Bridges so easily. Dude has shown up for every single game since college, shows obvious joy in playing, does the dirty work and a very savvy basketball IQ and also signed a reasonable contract extension. Meanwhile the video gamer feels entitled to a max for being able to dominate undersized HS kids during his AAU years and has shown zero to being the type of player that garners a max extension and the limits it places on the team too build around.

 

[Finito]

Its telling how none of his teammates are standing on their soap boxes speaking in his defense. They know his production can be easily replaced. This is why I dont give up Bridges so easily. Dude has shown up for every single game since college, shows obvious joy in playing, does the dirty work and a very savvy basketball IQ and also signed a reasonable contract extension. Meanwhile the video gamer feels entitled to a max for being able to dominate undersized HS kids during his AAU years and has shown zero to being the type of player that garners a max extension and the limits it places on the team too build around.

This guy

It’s a huge taboo to get involved in another players money. Your gonna get the standard he needs to do what’s best for him.

 

[somethingshesaid]

I wish I understood more about James Jones' supposed lack of interest in the draft. I'm skeptical of the idea that he really doesn't want to use the draft, because he did draft Jalen Smith, who was no bust--he is a useful player. On the other hand, the Suns foolishly wasted Smith, by largely ignoring him and then trading him in a win-now move. But back to the other hand...how responsible is Jones for that? The coach is in control of who plays, unless Jones micromanages his coach like Ryan McDonough probably micromanaged; and I know no evidence that Jones micromanages.

Could this all be because Robert Sarver was mad about all the busts preceding Jones, and gave Jones a mandate to win now and minimize drafting?

 

[somethingshesaid]

I do not believe this team has peaked. Cp3 may have. Securing his heir should be our top priority, not dumping Ayton.

This is accidentally funny, because it provoked me to think of Chris Paul as Mr. Burns wanting an heir. CP in a derby hat asking for someone to replace his vast talent. His vast, vast, vast talent. ...Vast.

 

[GatorAZ]

I wish I understood more about James Jones' supposed lack of interest in the draft. I'm skeptical of the idea that he really doesn't want to use the draft, because he did draft Jalen Smith, who was no bust--he is a useful player. On the other hand, the Suns foolishly wasted Smith, by largely ignoring him and then trading him in a win-now move. But back to the other hand...how responsible is Jones for that? The coach is in control of who plays, unless Jones micromanages his coach like Ryan McDonough probably micromanaged; and I know no evidence that Jones micromanages.

Could this all be because Robert Sarver was mad about all the busts preceding Jones, and gave Jones a mandate to win now and minimize drafting?

There’s really no point in trying to make sense of the Stix saga. From draft night to trade day it’s made zero sense.

 

[Finito]

This is accidentally funny, because it provoked me to think of Chris Paul as Mr. Burns wanting an heir. CP in a derby hat asking for someone to replace his vast talent. His vast, vast, vast talent. ...Vast.

Great reference

 

[Covert Rain]

I wish I understood more about James Jones' supposed lack of interest in the draft. I'm skeptical of the idea that he really doesn't want to use the draft, because he did draft Jalen Smith, who was no bust--he is a useful player. On the other hand, the Suns foolishly wasted Smith, by largely ignoring him and then trading him in a win-now move. But back to the other hand...how responsible is Jones for that? The coach is in control of who plays, unless Jones micromanages his coach like Ryan McDonough probably micromanaged; and I know no evidence that Jones micromanages.

Could this all be because Robert Sarver was mad about all the busts preceding Jones, and gave Jones a mandate to win now and minimize drafting?

It's pretty simple for me. The team is in win now mode. They would rather the roster be filled with experience vets that could possibly give them minutes in pinch verses young guys who won't be ready to leave the bench. Monty doesn't play young guys to develop them. James Jones has also shown that he is a wheel and deal guy. So, the thinking might be I can always pull off another deal. You can only do this for so many years before you jeopardize the longer terms prospects of this team.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I wish I understood more about James Jones' supposed lack of interest in the draft. I'm skeptical of the idea that he really doesn't want to use the draft, because he did draft Jalen Smith, who was no bust--he is a useful player. On the other hand, the Suns foolishly wasted Smith, by largely ignoring him and then trading him in a win-now move. But back to the other hand...how responsible is Jones for that? The coach is in control of who plays, unless Jones micromanages his coach like Ryan McDonough probably micromanaged; and I know no evidence that Jones micromanages.

Could this all be because Robert Sarver was mad about all the busts preceding Jones, and gave Jones a mandate to win now and minimize drafting?

He thinks the draft is overrated, for every Giannis and Booker that comes along there are 10's or more of a Bender, Chriss or Josh Jackson. Immaturity loses games, maturity wins games.

Athleticism that isn't paired with basketball IQ and strong work ethic is wasted athleticism. So, when you're looking at kids and their lack of maturity shows up or their athleticism isn't clearly paired with the other attributes they want, they choose to stay away. And once you get beyond the first couple of near locks in the draft, those concerns follow most of the rest of the names associated with the lottery.

Also, he believes that shooting efficiency is more prized than almost any other skill or physical attribute and those guys can almost as easily be acquired as FA's or later in the draft.

Jalen Smith simply came along at the wrong time. We'd just sold off our G League team so would have no control over any player we sent down, Covid cancelled March Madness which is a prime scouting opportunity, Covid cancelled summer league which is a prime rookie development tool, Covid shortened the preseason schedule which is also key to rookie development, and then Smith was out for a stretch due to injury and then again due to catching Covid.

In between all of this, Smith miserably failed every single opportunity we gave him including when we sent him to the G League. We were dialed in on winning a championship and Smith was going to eat up money we might need to sign a backup during the season and given his start, he didn't appear to have a future with us.

Sure, we made mistakes with him in addition to those circumstances that worked against us (which include Stix apparently not realizing just how much harder he needed to work in the NBA). We took one look at his frame and knew we wanted no part of a big man down low with no hips and skinny legs so we played him solely at PF.

A better organization would have sent him down and had our G League coach teach him how to play that position rather than just throw him to the wolves - and along the way we might have discovered how much more comfortable and effective he was at center (something we never learned until after we'd burned our bridge with him). So, in this regard our owner selling off our minor league team probably had a lot to do with the mess.

 

[Mainstreet]

I feel we need to quit making excuses for Suns management. Not picking up the option on Jalen Smith was an obvious mistake not to mention he was the wrong selection at #10 in the 2020 draft. A GM shouldn't give up on a talented player regardless of position after two seasons.

I'm more than willing to give James Jones credit for every good move he makes as well.

 

[somethingshesaid]

He thinks the draft is overrated, for every Giannis and Booker that comes along there are 10's or more of a Bender, Chriss or Josh Jackson. Immaturity loses games, maturity wins games.

Well, it's true enough. I think the draft is overrated. What else am I supposed to think after arguably a decade of busts, wasted picks, and wasted young players? I know that doesn't mean that the best response is to ignore the draft. The best response is to just find the Bookers, the Antetokuonmpos and even the Jalen Smiths. All they have done is just go to the opposite extreme from before. If the draft is overrated, that's just too bad, because there's no other way to get brand-new players.

I appreciate that you are willing to bluntly and harshly criticize the Suns front office when it looks incompetent in some aspect. Because that's the implication of "a better organization would have..."

 

[somethingshesaid]

In between all of this, Smith miserably failed every single opportunity we gave him including when we sent him to the G League. We were dialed in on winning a championship and Smith was going to eat up money we might need to sign a backup during the season and given his start, he didn't appear to have a future with us.

Sure, we made mistakes with him in addition to those circumstances that worked against us (which include Stix apparently not realizing just how much harder he needed to work in the NBA). We took one look at his frame and knew we wanted no part of a big man down low with no hips and skinny legs so we played him solely at PF.

A better organization would have sent him down and had our G League coach teach him how to play that position rather than just throw him to the wolves - and along the way we might have discovered how much more comfortable and effective he was at center (something we never learned until after we'd burned our bridge with him). So, in this regard our owner selling off our minor league team probably had a lot to do with the mess.

Because I have noticed that Jalen Smith hasn't exactly proven good character but has a background suggesting discipline (I mean his military parentage), I generally expect him to figure out and overcome his issues. Although his potential must be lower than DeAndre Ayton's, I find Smith more likely to reach his full potential (whatever it is) than Ayton reaching his.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Because I have noticed that Jalen Smith hasn't exactly proven good character but has a background suggesting discipline (I mean his military parentage), I generally expect him to figure out and overcome his issues. Although his potential must be lower than DeAndre Ayton's, I find Smith more likely to reach his full potential (whatever it is) than Ayton reaching his.

I think they're both decent guys but yeah, Smith does seem to be on a better path right now despite not having DA's potential. In each case though their coaches and teammates have been very supportive of them so maybe they'll both get there. We saw far more reason to give up on Bender, Chriss and Jackson yet we gave them far more chances than Stix.

 

[Proximo]

I feel we need to quit making excuses for Suns management. Not picking up the option on Jalen Smith was an obvious mistake not to mention he was the wrong selection at #10 in the 2020 draft. A GM shouldn't give up on a talented player regardless of position after two seasons.

I'm more than willing to give James Jones credit for every good move he makes as well.

Yeah no kidding, we could have haliburton right now, and Ayton would not want to be going anywhere, and we could trade CP3 right now.

 

[mjb21aztd]

Lol are we ever gonna get a final outcome to this whole disaster lol

What is taking soooooo dang long ughhh

 

[Mainstreet]

Yeah no kidding, we could have haliburton right now, and Ayton would not want to be going anywhere, and we could trade CP3 right now.

I really think giving up on Ayton is the wrong move. The best we can probably hope for is the Suns getting something close to his value in return. Likely we will be disappointed.

The Suns are not going to pay all of Ayton, Paul, Bridges, Booker, Cam Johnson and Durant going forward. Something has to give.

Although the Suns will probably not do it, they do have an option to keep Ayton. They could let Paul walk after the 2022-23 season and spread out the remaining $15 million over years. Also they could trade Ayton sometime down the road if they desire.

 

[Mainstreet]

Lol are we ever gonna get a final outcome to this whole disaster lol

What is taking soooooo dang long ughhh

Well there is Irving, Durant, Mitchell, Simmons, Ayton and probably some other players I'm forgetting.

 

[Proximo]

I really think giving up on Ayton is the wrong move. The best we can probably hope for is the Suns getting something close to his value in return. Likely we will be disappointed.

The Suns are not going to pay all of Ayton, Paul, Bridges, Booker, Cam Johnson and Durant going forward. Something has to give.

Although the Suns will probably not do it, they do have an option to keep Ayton. They could let Paul walk after the 2022-23 season and spread out the remaining $15 million over years. Also they could trade Ayton sometime down the road if they desire.

The only way Ayton is on this team is if we end up matching an offer sheet which is unlikely. Then there is a 90% chance he would be traded at the deadline.

I have moved on even believing it's possible he is a part of the Suns future.

 

[Mainstreet]

The only way Ayton is on this team is if we end up matching an offer sheet which is unlikely. Then there is a 90% chance he would be traded at the deadline.

I have moved on even believing it's possible he is a part of the Suns future.

I've come to accept the Suns trading Ayton as inevitable but that doesn't mean I accept it as the right move. I don't agree with it.

At least if the Suns trade Ayton at the trade deadline they should get more value in return.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

It's pretty simple for me. The team is in win now mode. They would rather the roster be filled with experience vets that could possibly give them minutes in pinch verses young guys who won't be ready to leave the bench. Monty doesn't play young guys to develop them. James Jones has also shown that he is a wheel and deal guy. So, the thinking might be I can always pull off another deal. You can only do this for so many years before you jeopardize the longer terms prospects of this team.

It’s not surprising because it’s a very similar modus operandi to what most Lebron teams have done. Typically loading up on older vets to win now. And as should not be a shock to anyone, James jones was a part of those Lebron teams. It’s not a terrible plan when you’re actually a contender. The only difference for jones and Lebron is:

When the run is done, Lebron moves on to another team that can load up.

When the run is done, James jones will be left with a team with no young talent.

 

[Proximo]

I've come to accept the Suns trading Ayton as inevitable but that doesn't mean I accept it as the right move. I don't agree with it.

At least if the Suns trade Ayton at the trade deadline they should get more value in return.

It really totally depends on what we get back in the trade.

While I don't really want to get rid of him, I don't really think he is likely worth 30 million a year either considering the way we utilize him.

 

[AzStevenCal]

The only way Ayton is on this team is if we end up matching an offer sheet which is unlikely. Then there is a 90% chance he would be traded at the deadline.

I have moved on even believing it's possible he is a part of the Suns future.

If we match him we won't be able to trade him until midseason and DA will have veto over any destination. So I don't think there's anywhere close to a 90% chance he'll be traded at the deadline if we match. I think if we sign him outirght though, there's a high chance it will be with the intent of moving him by the deadline.

 

[Mainstreet]

It really totally depends on what we get back in the trade.

While I don't really want to get rid of him, I don't really think he is likely worth 30 million a year either considering the way we utilize him.

I don't either but $10 million or so over a 4 year contract is not worth losing Ayton over when other players like Jalen Brunson are earning over a $100 million for 4 years.