The Bell Tolls for Raja Bell...

[msdundee]

He seemed to do all right last night.

His post-game interview was very telling. He DEFINITELY is resisting the new offense; he said a few times that "it's no secret we score better when we run 'n gun."

34 minutes = +17, best +/- on the team.

He's just telling the truth, it IS no secret they score more points in the running game and nobody argues that. However, that's not an answer to the problem at hand.

 

[dbUNIT16]

I do not think another scorer is what we need. I think we have just the right amount of scorers. They just need to adapt. Raja is often open, but the ball doesn't get kicked out to him, as Shaq instead takes it in himself.

I do like the power game of going inside better than the three point game we used to play, but I guess it's a matter of balance. We have to be good in both areas.

 

[cly2tw]

34 minutes = +17, best +/- on the team.

He's just telling the truth, it IS no secret they score more points in the running game and nobody argues that. However, that's not an answer to the problem at hand.

So glad we are for once on the same page on this particular issue.

It's about the total effect of plays to win the game. If we could win with running (towards a title), we shall do so. Scoring easily is not the goal. I vividly remember the first time DA's Suns got eliminated by the Spurs in the playoff. In most of the games, the fundamentalist Spurs scored faster and more easily than Nash led run-n-gun team, and lost the series 4:1. The only win was with late game heroics by Amare and Nash together. Most memorable play being Nash passing Amare's dunk while falling down out of bound with TD full over him. Do we really want to go back to these old days of easy scoring?

 

[Ballamania]

i like raja because of his intensity, and his take pride in defense approach.there arent a lot of players who even care about defending. i DO prefer a more versatile 2 guard though.someone who can create their own shot by jumper,drive and post.raja depends on someone else to get his shots and i think in this offense, thats not looking beautiful at all,maybe a different style of guard is needed.it would be a definite advantage to have a perimeter player like that opposed to someone who if their guarded tightly they have to pass. i dont take lightly what he does but it might be time to find a more complete sg if its even possible

 

[Wally]

Did you say OVER? Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor??

No, the (one-way) lovefest continues.

Raja is not what ails this team.

DeAnna,
Unless you're trying to be funny, you may want to edit the "Germans". Dec 7 is not that far away and you may want to refresh your history of WWII.

Other than that, I find it somewhat amusing how quickly some fans can jump to conclusions about the Suns & their players and yet think the Spurs will re-group after the break to become a "force" in the playoffs. I'm still in the camp of give the Suns & coach a chance to figure out how to get it together & keep it together.

 

[msdundee]

So glad we are for once on the same page on this particular issue.

Well, no. Regarding getting things back on track, I'm absolutely positive we are not on the same page. Probably not even in the same book.

 

[Errntknght]

Steeldog,

Per 82games.com SG it is our worst spot on the floor defending. We currently rank #30 at the SG spot in the NBA.

As I mentioned before Raja (currently) has the best +/- of any Suns player - according to 82games.com. Also the best W/L pct and he's a member of our most successful 5 man units. These don't mean the world but they're more meaningful than stats by position - which is what Steeldog is basing his complaints on - because the latter include Barbosa and whoever else happens to be filling in at SG when Raja isn't on the floor or when he's playing SF.

I'm certainly not overwhelmed by Raja's play and I wish he'd stop yapping about what the team used to do but he doesn't appear to be the weak link - from my watching of the games or reading of the stats. He is drawing the toughest defensive assignments and is doing better, generally, than anyone else who tries to guard those players.

Steeldog is welcome to his opinion but he is not trying to present a balanced evaluation - I pointed out these same stats that contradict his chosen one a week ago and here he is, still harping away on the same single stat and ignoring the others.

 

[Cheesebeef]

DeAnna,
Unless you're trying to be funny, you may want to edit the "Germans". Dec 7 is not that far away and you may want to refresh your history of WWII.

someone's obviously never seen Animal House.

 

[elindholm]

DeAnna,
Unless you're trying to be funny, you may want to edit the "Germans".

Every time someone makes this joke, someone else misses it. That phenomenon has become funnier than the joke itself.

 

[French Fries]

Saying "He's working his butt off" is like saying a chick has a "nice personality."

Post of the day, second place...

 

[DeAnna]

DeAnna,
Unless you're trying to be funny, you may want to edit the "Germans". Dec 7 is not that far away and you may want to refresh your history of WWII.

LoL, I guess you've never seen Animal House!
http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/f7/payback-rally-the-troops-71987.html?highlight=Germans

 

[mojorizen7]

LoL, I guess you've never seen Animal House!
http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/f7/payback-rally-the-troops-71987.html?highlight=Germans

LOL i guess you didn't see Cheesebeefs post.
It's a paradox.

You must be registered for see images

 

[DeAnna]

LOL i guess you didn't see Cheesebeefs post.
It's a paradox. http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZCxdm565MOUS

Drive-by posting.

 

[shazaam6]

Drive-by posting.

...........................

 

[Covert Rain]

Steeldog,

As I mentioned before Raja (currently) has the best +/- of any Suns player - according to 82games.com. Also the best W/L pct and he's a member of our most successful 5 man units. These don't mean the world but they're more meaningful than stats by position - which is what Steeldog is basing his complaints on - because the latter include Barbosa and whoever else happens to be filling in at SG when Raja isn't on the floor or when he's playing SF.

Actually, this is not my thread and I have said it's to early. However, I am saying that there is more to Bell then his +/- net. It's not a perfect stat by any stretch. However, Raja is still getting the majority of the minutes SG.

Also, Bell might be on the best 5 man tandem but that means he is a better team defender then individual defender. Also, as I mentioned, teams still respect his 3 point shot which opens up the floor and allow our post player to score.

Steeldog is welcome to his opinion but he is not trying to present a balanced evaluation - I pointed out these same stats that contradict his chosen one a week ago and here he is, still harping away on the same single stat and ignoring the others.

Oh contrare. I don't think your looking at the entire picture. Look at his Roland Ranking on the team (it takes into account, his +/-, per etc.). The Roland rating is meant to guage how much of a difference maker each player is on there team. Raja is the 4th worst on the team. Currently they rank like this (from biggest difference maker to least):

Amare
Shaq
Nash
Amundson
Barnes
Diaw
Hill
Barbosa
Bell
Lopez
Dragic
Singletary

Next - Raja the team has the best individual +/- on the team but when Raja is on the floor (out of the best 5 man units) only 2 of the 7 combinations have a positive net turnover percentages.

Now combine that with the fact that we are giving up more points at the SG percentage (with Raja logging most the minutes), it appears the negatives are outweighing the positives at this point.

Please explain how I am not looking at the overall picture? I think Raja is still a good team defender but his individual performance is lacking this year. Considering how many teams like to ISO one and one and drive....Raja doesn't appear to be our shutdown guy in that scenario any longer. Did we not bring him in here to guard the Manu's of the world?

The way he played against Kobe was a start. Maybe he was just in a funk? I am not saying Raja is done nor am I complaining about it. I am simply saying that there are signs Raja is on the downslide and sliding if you look at everthing so far this season.

 

[cly2tw]

All in all, Raja is not really at the core of this team's problem. Nash holds the key.

 

[Errntknght]

Now, dog, you went to 82games.com and found a stat that reflected poorly on the SG position so I went to that same site and found that you reported only part of the story there. Now you're bringing up one of their truly minor stats - 'net turnover percentages'? Its like one of twenty categories. Thats what I call hunting for things to complain about. And you do keep bring up the same story in thread after thread like it was some major discovery.

 

[Linderbee]

Every time someone makes this joke, someone else misses it. That phenomenon has become funnier than the joke itself.

I was thinking that same thing myself.

/nothing of value to add to the thread, sorry. What else is new?

 

[SirStefan32]

All in all, Raja is not really at the core of this team's problem. Nash holds the key.

I was just thinking the same thing- Would we even be having this discussion about Bell if Nash was playing as well as he could play? Probably not.

 

[Covert Rain]

Now, dog, you went to 82games.com and found a stat that reflected poorly on the SG position so I went to that same site and found that you reported only part of the story there. Now you're bringing up one of their truly minor stats - 'net turnover percentages'? Its like one of twenty categories. Thats what I call hunting for things to complain about. And you do keep bring up the same story in thread after thread like it was some major discovery.

First, the Roland Rating is not "minor". Also, having one of the worst overall productions from the SG position in the league is also hardly minor. Again, Raja logs most of those minutes.

Second, Look at the 2 threads that have the discussions about Bell. I have brought up the good and the bad. BOTH. Maybe you missed the part where I said "it's still too early" or "I am not 100% convinced he's done" or "Maybe he is just in a funk?" That is complaining??? Really???

There were people who were saying that Raja is sliding. I think there is evidence regardless of how "minor" that is true, not to mention you can see it with your own eyes that he is struggling. That was the bases of the discussion. If someone had started a thread stating Raja is playing well....guess what? I would have posted stats to support that as well.

 

[nowagimp]

So glad we are for once on the same page on this particular issue.

I vividly remember the first time DA's Suns got eliminated by the Spurs in the playoff. In most of the games, the fundamentalist Spurs scored faster and more easily than Nash led run-n-gun team, and lost the series 4:1. The only win was with late game heroics by Amare and Nash together. Most memorable play being Nash passing Amare's dunk while falling down out of bound with TD full over him. Do we really want to go back to these old days of easy scoring?

Do you vividly remember JJ going down and the suns having no bench besides that? No bench, no sustained defense, true of the spurs as well. Selective memory, keep telling yourself it was the "system".

 

[Covert Rain]

Do you vividly remember JJ going down and the suns having no bench besides that? No bench, no sustained defense, true of the spurs as well. Selective memory, keep telling yourself it was the "system".

You have to admit the system was also a major factor. The system is not built around a defensive mindset. When you lose someone like JJ (who is suppose to be one of your best defenders) it only amplifies your defensive shortcummings. If the system was geared more towards defense first, it wouldn't have made up for JJ's abscence by any stretch but it might have been more competative.

Agreed with the bench part though. A thin bench is a thin bench no matter what system your running.

 

[nowagimp]

You have to admit the system was also a major factor. The system is not built around a defensive mindset. When you lose someone like JJ (who is suppose to be one of your best defenders) it only amplifies your defensive shortcummings. If the system was geared more towards defense first, it wouldn't have made up for JJ's abscence by any stretch but it might have been more competative.

Agreed with the bench part though. A thin bench is a thin bench no matter what system your running.

The spurs defense was terrible when their bench ran short. As soon as those terrible backups were sent in, the scoring was accelerated. WHen guys get tired, the defense gets ragged. I still have yet to see the suns play consistently better defense than the DA era with KT. Their perimeter defense is worse, alot worse than the KT teams who limited the opponents 3pt % to 32%. The suns try to collapse the defense to protect shaq and amare from fouls on the penetration. The points in thepaint are down, except when opponents run, then its ugly. The 3 pt percentage the suns allow is just about the worst I have seen, and its part of the porter system to give up the 3 and protect against the penetration.

 

[cly2tw]

Do you vividly remember JJ going down and the suns having no bench besides that? No bench, no sustained defense, true of the spurs as well. Selective memory, keep telling yourself it was the "system".

My focus in that post was not over and over on the 'system'. I was kind of suggesting, a fundamentally sound team like Spurs is capable of playing all styles and excells at them. They took what the opponents gave them and beat them to that.

"The system" as a run-no-matter-who-the-opponents-are strategy works well in regular season, and requires "running from start to end no matter" as an essential part. So, it's no doable now. It's no wonder that "half-system" , playing the "system" half the time, wouldn't work!

That's point. Nash must stop playing like in an half-system. We get less fastbreak pts this hybrid-way than Malone/Stockton's fundamental approach like the Spurs did, namely, run only on stops; not to mention the atrocious amount of turnovers that lead to more easy points for opponents.

 

[Covert Rain]

The spurs defense was terrible when their bench ran short. As soon as those terrible backups were sent in, the scoring was accelerated. WHen guys get tired, the defense gets ragged. I still have yet to see the suns play consistently better defense than the DA era with KT. Their perimeter defense is worse, alot worse than the KT teams who limited the opponents 3pt % to 32%. The suns try to collapse the defense to protect shaq and amare from fouls on the penetration. The points in thepaint are down, except when opponents run, then its ugly. The 3 pt percentage the suns allow is just about the worst I have seen, and its part of the porter system to give up the 3 and protect against the penetration.

Except during that same time span the Suns were ranked in the 10 worst in the league at giving up points in the paint. The last year KT was here we were at #26 I believe. I think Kurt brought us more toughness then actual defense. I think we are better now defensively then we were with those teams. The weaknesses have have shifted a bit.