The Cardinals' 2011 Draft

[Russ Smith]

I think that Sam Acho will be as good or better an NFL player than Ayers. Mark it down.

I would tend to agree as would a lot of UCLA fans who spent the last season complaining that Ayers was acting like he'd already turned pro and just hadn't told the UCLA coaches.

He's a talented kid but he played like he was avoiding contact on purpose to not get hurt before he turned pro.

And for an athletic OLB, he's not a very good pass rusher. He was at best a 3rd rounder IMHO.

 

[Dougmo]

"Put it this way: Would you rather have the highest-rated running back or, say, the sixth-rated outside linebacker? Two words: Cody Brown."

This quote from Sando bugs me. If my board has the 6th rated OLB higher then the highest rated RB, that is exactly what I want. Would you rather have the 6th highest rated OLB or the highest rated Kicker/fullback/whatever? The individual position ranks don't matter, it's how they stack up on your overall board.

I love Sando but this just seems asinine.
You could switch the name and give this a quote the opposite meaning
"Put it this way: would you rather have the highest rated running back or, say, the sixth rated outside linebacker? Two words: Beanie Wells."

To me, this seems more apporpriate. I believe he was our highest rated RB, both have injury issues and don't always hold onto the ball.

 

[Mitch]

This quote from Sando bugs me. If my board has the 6th rated OLB higher then the highest rated RB, that is exactly what I want. Would you rather have the 6th highest rated OLB or the highest rated Kicker/fullback/whatever? The individual position ranks don't matter, it's how they stack up on your overall board.

I love Sando but this just seems asinine.
You could switch the name and give this a quote the opposite meaning
"Put it this way: would you rather have the highest rated running back or, say, the sixth rated outside linebacker? Two words: Beanie Wells."

To me, this seems more apporpriate. I believe he was our highest rated RB, both have injury issues and don't always hold onto the ball.

The comment by Sando was assinine, Doug. You are right---especially for a team who is prone to giving up 45 points on any given Sunday---and for a draft that was relatively deep in edge rushers.

Get use to this: the Cardinals could draft Elmer Fudd in the second round and some people will find a way to defend the pick---and even go as far as to call it genius.

This was a very poorly conceived draft by the Cardinals---which did more to prove that they can't coach up their past draft picks, more than anything else.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

The comment by Sando was assinine, Doug. You are right---especially for a team who is prone to giving up 45 points on any given Sunday---and for a draft that was relatively deep in edge rushers.

Get use to this: the Cardinals could draft Elmer Fudd in the second round and some people will find a way to defend the pick---and even go as far as to call it genius.

This was a very poorly conceived draft by the Cardinals---which did more to prove that they can't coach up their past draft picks, more than anything else.[/QUOTE]

I'm looking forward to attending your seminar for the Cards brass.

 

[binkar]

Mitch,

I know your going to think I am trying to be a jerk, which I am not. However, I would really like to hear your response to my post above. I have yet to hear your reasoning for Brooks Reed's lack of production in college, or extremely low rate of success of the guys listed above. You had some of them rated very highly coming out of college. I am not trying to be a jerk, but I just find it puzzling that you continue to bash the front office, yet can't defend the players you say we should have taken.

You said we should take Reed, Ayers, or Carter, yet not one of those guys were great pass rushers in college. If they are great pass rushers, why couldn't they get it done on an inferior level?

Also, you said they should take Houston, yet did a number of threads on self starters and being Cardinal Tough. Houston is known to be the opposite of all of those and lack effort.

 

[Mitch]

Mitch,

I know your going to think I am trying to be a jerk, which I am not. However, I would really like to hear your response to my post above. I have yet to hear your reasoning for Brooks Reed's lack of production in college, or extremely low rate of success of the guys listed above. You had some of them rated very highly coming out of college. I am not trying to be a jerk, but I just find it puzzling that you continue to bash the front office, yet can't defend the players you say we should have taken.

You said we should take Reed, Ayers, or Carter, yet not one of those guys were great pass rushers in college. If they are great pass rushers, why couldn't they get it done on an inferior level?

Also, you said they should take Houston, yet did a number of threads on self starters and being Cardinal Tough. Houston is known to be the opposite of all of those and lack effort.

I was pointing out the run of LBers that went right after the Cardinals picked Williams. Of those players, Reed jumped out to me on tape and in the Senior Bowl. I recognize and even questioned his sack numbers on previous posts. But...it's the eye test, Binkar. That kid comes at you hard and quickly...and sometimes we forget that QB hurries and pressures are just as important as sacks. Several times I saw where Reed forced the QB to his right to avoid him and right into the arms of Ricky Elmore. Elmore has Reed to thank for quite a few of his sacks.

I never liked Ayers for the Cardinals---I was pointing out the run of LBers.

To be perfectly honest, the guy I was most enamored with for Round 2 (other than Jabbal Sheard---who was an ideal choice for SOLB) was Dontay Moch because of his speed and toughness---and as I said on my mock drafts, I think he's a player you move around to shoot him through a variety of gaps. With Sheard gone---the best talents were not a good fit for SOLB, but still would help the pass rush in a big way.

I am happy we took Sam Acho---but I had Moch and Reed rated as more dynamic pass rushers.

Do you have a tape of the Senior Bowl? Watch Reed and watch Acho---you will see what I mean, and obviously the Texans saw it too when they made Reed the #42 pick.

People question why the Patriots passed over Reed with #33 pick---well, Belichick has been getting heat here in MA for passing over Clay Matthews two years ago---and a host of other good players when he trades away his picks.

As for Justin Houston, I think the raps on him are way overblown. I saw a kid who is a little raw, playing in a new sysytem at GA this year, but who had the most explosive first step of anyone---and he could realy turn the corner like a pro. Cbus saw him in his bowl game, as did I, and we were both very impressed (this was before we even knew he was coming out for the draft). Hey--the kid was the leading sacker in the SEC this year for a reason---he's got real pass rushing talent. The rest of his game needs grooming and time. But often that's what you get with early entry juniors.

Have I respectfully answered your questions? Sometimes it's hard to respond to so many posts.

 

[binkar]

I was pointing out the run of LBers that went right after the Cardinals picked Williams. Of those players, Reed jumped out to me on tape and in the Senior Bowl. I recognize and even questioned his sack numbers on previous posts. But...it's the eye test, Binkar. That kid comes at you hard and quickly...and sometimes we forget that QB hurries and pressures are just as important as sacks. Several times I saw where Reed forced the QB to his right to avoid him and right into the arms of Ricky Elmore. Elmore has Reed to thank for quite a few of his sacks.

I never liked Ayers for the Cardinals---I was pointing out the run of LBers.

To be perfectly honest, the guy I was most enamored with for Round 2 (other than Jabbal Sheard---who was an ideal choice for SOLB) was Dontay Moch because of his speed and toughness---and as I said on my mock drafts, I think he's a player you move around to shoot him through a variety of gaps. With Sheard gone---the best talents were not a good fit for SOLB, but still would help the pass rush in a big way.

I am happy we took Sam Acho---but I had Moch and Reed rated as more dynamic pass rushers.

Do you have a tape of the Senior Bowl? Watch Reed and watch Acho---you will see what I mean, and obviously the Texans saw it too when they made Reed the #42 pick.

People question why the Patriots passed over Reed with #33 pick---well, Belichick has been getting heat here in MA for passing over Clay Matthews two years ago---and a host of other good players when he trades away his picks.

As for Justin Houston, I think the raps on him are way overblown. I saw a kid who is a little raw, playing in a new sysytem at GA this year, but who had the most explosive first step of anyone---and he could realy turn the corner like a pro. Cbus saw him in his bowl game, as did I, and we were both very impressed (this was before we even knew he was coming out for the draft). Hey--the kid was the leading sacker in the SEC this year for a reason---he's got real pass rushing talent. The rest of his game needs grooming and time. But often that's what you get with early entry juniors.

Have I respectfully answered your questions? Sometimes it's hard to respond to so many posts.

Great stuff, Mitch. I appreciate you taking the time. I understand your point of view. I would obviously rate Reed ahead of Acho, and I am guessing at least 90% of the teams did as well (if not 100%). However, in watching tape of Reed, I didn't see a dominant pass rusher. I saw a guy who could be a 5-7 sacks a year player in the league. Solid, but not spectacular. Though there is a reason he was rated ahead of Acho, there is also a reason that he was taken behind Miller, Smith, Quinn, Kerrigan, Sheard (who I liked better than Reed), etc. If the Cardinals rank Reed as a 5-7 sack a year guy, and rate Williams as a 1,300 yard back, wouldn't you rather have them take the 1,300 yard back? It's a matter of preference, and I see both sides, but don't you kind of see where the front office is coming from? It doesn't mean they are completely idiotic and inept.

Again, thanks for taking the time to respond.

 

[Duckjake]

Great stuff, Mitch. I appreciate you taking the time. I understand your point of view. I would obviously rate Reed ahead of Acho, and I am guessing at least 90% of the teams did as well (if not 100%). However, in watching tape of Reed, I didn't see a dominant pass rusher. I saw a guy who could be a 5-7 sacks a year player in the league. Solid, but not spectacular. Though there is a reason he was rated ahead of Acho, there is also a reason that he was taken behind Miller, Smith, Quinn, Kerrigan, Sheard (who I liked better than Reed), etc. If the Cardinals rank Reed as a 5-7 sack a year guy, and rate Williams as a 1,300 yard back, wouldn't you rather have them take the 1,300 yard back? It's a matter of preference, and I see both sides, but don't you kind of see where the front office is coming from? It doesn't mean they are completely idiotic and inept.

Again, thanks for taking the time to respond.

Not given the circumstances of the Cardinals offense. I'd rather have a guy who will be involved in 40-60 snaps a game at LB (or Guard or Tackle or Dlineman or Safety) and maybe also play ST than a potential 1300 yard rusher who only gets 9 carries a game. He'd have to average 9 yards a carry to get near 1300 yards.

That is why so many posters were upset at taking a RB and a TE at 2 and 3. The Card didn't use the ones they had so why go get more?

It really seemed idiotic and inept at the time. Now that most have had time to think about it maybe it means the Cards are actually going to change the offense to involve the RB and TE more. Or that they didn't trust the ones they had so couldn't utilize them. I hope so. Otherwise they wasted 2 high draft picks.

 

[binkar]

Not given the circumstances of the Cardinals offense. I'd rather have a guy who will be involved in 40-60 snaps a game at LB (or Guard or Tackle or Dlineman or Safety) and maybe also play ST than a potential 1300 yard rusher who only gets 9 carries a game. He'd have to average 9 yards a carry to get near 1300 yards.

That is why so many posters were upset at taking a RB and a TE at 2 and 3. The Card didn't use the ones they had so why go get more?

It really seemed idiotic and inept at the time. Now that most have had time to think about it maybe it means the Cards are actually going to change the offense to involve the RB and TE more. Or that they didn't trust the ones they had so couldn't utilize them. I hope so. Otherwise they wasted 2 high draft picks.

Cause they didn't like or trust the ones they had? Do you want them to have Jim Dray stretch the defense on a seam route? Or the great speed demon Stephen Spach? You can't use something you don't have.

 

[john h]

In assessing the Cardinals' greatest needs prior to the draft, these were the areas I focussed on:

1-Cardinal Tough---adding toughness to a team that desperately needs it.

2-Improving the Cardinals' weakest areas: the outside pass rush, the left tackle position and the strong inside linebacker position.

3-Adding Players Who are Good Fits in the "Dink and Dunk" Offense, the Steeler-type 34 Defense and on Special Teams.

4-Adding Players Who Are Self-Starters and Are Highly Motivated.

Cardinal Tough :

Plusses: Peterson, Acho, Sherman

Question Marks: Williams, Housler, Sturdivant, Carter, Sampson

Improving the Cardinals' Weakest Areas:

A. The Outside Pass Rush---while Acho has a good motor and works his tail off, he dropped to the 4th round because he is only an average pass rusher.

This area was a major whiff for the Cardinals in a draft that was a good 10 players deep in very good edge rushers. This was my biggest disappointment in the draft and has been for the past several drafts.

When is it ever going to happen?

Ironically, two of our Division Rivals, who already have significantly more talent on the edge than we do, cashed in on adding edge talent:

SF: Aldon Smith (7) and Bruce Miller (239)

STL: Robert Quinn (14)

Now our left tackle will be even more challenged...

B. The Left Tackle Position

Total whiff...although the draft wasn't loaded with LT prospects---and the 4 best LT candidates, by far, were taken in the first round.

Every knowledgeable Cardinals' fan knows that Levi Brown does not have the ability to stifle good edge rushers---and yet---the Cardinal coaches continue to believe otherwise. Let's hope the Cardinals have an answer in free agency.

C. Strong Inside Linebacker.

Quan Sturdivant dropped to the 6th round because he is not an impact tackler---he's more of a drag-you-down arm tackler. He has good range and very good size and ahtleticism---but lacks the step up and smash you in the mouth instinct/mentality. These were the areas that concerned me about Karlos Dansby.

We still here in Arizona haven't had a step up and smash you in the mouth SILB in years...in years!

We need tough intimidators on this defense...not finesse guys.

Now---maybe Ray Horton lights a fire under Sturdivant and Sturdivant responds. He is physically capable.

There are better SILB propects on the UCFA list:

Nicholas Bellore will smash you in the mouth. So will Mario Harvey, even though he's not as tall as you'd prefer...but so what. Like Ray Horton preaches, "I want small guys who can hit."

But---again---there were some very good SILB prospects in this draft that were available in the third round as most of us expected them to be---but the Cardinals felt that drafting a situational TE was more important...which I still do not even remotely comprehend as a priority, even though I am happy we finally got a TE receiving target---that is, if he is ever utilized and thrown to.

System Fits:

Peterson---with his versatility and athletic prowess he fits into ANY system. And the great thing is, he will be coached up by Ray Horton and DeShea Townshend---and maybe Horton won't be afraid to start a rookie like his predecessor was. Plus, imagine what PP7 is going to do for our return game. Projection: Immediate starter at CB.

Williams---a better fit than Beanie Wells because Williams is quicker to the holes, is shiftier in the open field and is a much better pass receiver. Projection: will assume the #2 RB role behind Tim Hightower and will get 10-12 touches a game.

Housler---is an excellent fit in the dink and dunk. Projection: situational TE who will be flexed into the slot or motioned into it.

Acho---has to make the conversion from college DE to pro SOLB, but has the smarts and aggressiveness to convert quickly. Projection: backup SOLB to Clark Haggans, but used to spell Haggans a couple of times a game. May get some looks as the LDE in the 4 man rush.

Sherman---a superb fit for a variety of reasons. First of all, he becomes the new Sean Morey on STs---the lead blocker on kickoffs---and one of the leading tacklers on cover teams. Secondly, he becomes the team's FB who will lead the way for Hightower and Williams when the offense is in the 2 back sets---and at times will be kept in to block in passing situations. Remember how Whiz tried to use Spach, Patrick and Dray in that role and they got blown up? Well, this Sherman Tank won't. Projection: starter at FB and STs ace.

Sturdivant---unless he becomes a more instinctive (in terms of stepping up) and physcial tackler, he won't see much PT at SILB. What I wonder is: will Ray Horton and John Lott try to put 15 more pounds on him and move him to the outside? That may be his more natural position. Projection: practice squad to start with...moved up to the roster when ready.

Carter---Whiz told him he would play 34DE, which thrilled Carter because---here we go again---like Alan Branch, he doesn't want to play NT. What I question is whether he has the agility to play 34DE. He has the strength in running situations and seems like a hard worker. Projection: practice squad.

Sampson---good fit in the dink and dunk. Has short area slippery-ness and strength---good hands and RAC ability---and can sneak by you deep on occasion. Projection: practice squad.

Self Starters?

Peterson---this kid dares to be great. Yes, no question.

Williams---this past injury-riddled, less productive season humbled him a great deal (it was reported that some coaches at VT thought Williams got a little too full of himself after his big year in 2009) and now he has the opportunity he's dreamed of...but he is going to have to deal with the awkwardness of the Beanie Wells situation. However, I think this is a kid who dreams big and is willing to work hard to accomplish his goals. Yes.

Housler---very mature and diligent. Yes.

Acho---is the epitome of a self-starter. Yes.

Sherman---Whiz likes gym rats, well this kid will be the first one in, last one out. Yes.

Sturdivant---he will be motivated to prove his talent. Yes.

Carter---pushed himself hard this past year and saw the value and reward of hard work. Yes.

Sampson---with his age comes maturity. Yes.

Grades:

1-Cardinal Tough? C+

2-Improving Weakest Areas: D

3-Acquiring Fits: B

4-Acquiring Self-Starters: A


Overall Grade: C+/B-

Comment: The organization's philosophy of how to build a championship caliber team and roster remains in question. This draft was the kind of draft a team makes when it already has strength at the key positions.

This was a draft that was focused on adding situational players. There may not be many present or future starters in this draft. Peterson and Sherman should become starters this year. The others will have to rise above the existing and future competition.

When a team keeps having to use high drafts at the same positions---while ignoring its greatest needs---that's a recipe for failure.

This draft puts further doubt on the team's scouts' understanding of how to draft for the Steeler-type 34 defense. Hopefully, once ensconsed in the draft preparations, Ray Horton can exert his infuence.

The good news is---it looks as if Whiz is now drafting players who fit the dink and dunk. Hopefully, he will realize that Levi Brown is not a dink and dunk LT---sooner rather than later.

Which leads to the question of free agency.

Michael Bidwill has vowed that the Cardinals are going to be "aggressive." This has been his mantra throughout his ticket sales PR campaign.

One has to wonder, however, what Bidwill's definition of aggressive is. This draft was not an aggressive draft---and what this draft has done is put enormous pressure on free agency---and quite frankly, based on the team's typically dilatory and passive aggressive free agency procedures, does anyone have confidence that Bidwill will follow through?

Would it surprise you if the one big move is to sign a QB and little else will be done to improve the rest of the team? That may be what Bidwill's talking about when he says aggressive: the team will sign a veteran QB.

I sincerely hope Michael Bidwill is good on his word---and---that he recognizes that this is one soft football team he has on his hands now---and that adding the veteran QB is only one of several key additions the team needs to make in order to make a legitimate run to recapture the NFC West division crown.

Mitch: Going side by side with the draft is the ability to keep the good players you do draft. We have an affinity to losing our best players we draft after their initial contract is up. Where it is because they want resign with us or whether we are low balling them I do not know. It seems to me the perpetual good teams manage to keep a solid core of their good players for year after year and get rid of them before they retire.

We now face the prospect of losing Larry Fitzgerald after this year. I give us less than a 50/50 chance of keeping him unless we manage to make the playoffs this year. That is unlikely. We also appear to be gearing up to a more running oriented team. It only makes sense that he would move on unless he really likes living in Arizona. The Cards should have some sense of what he is going to do by now. If they feel he is not going to resign they by all means trade him now and get some very good picks. In any even he will not be able to get us into the playoffs on his own this year. He might add a victory or two. I really like this guy and he is the best wide receiver this team has ever had. Likely a hall of fame player. It will be another case of losing your good/pro bowl player and possible with nothing to show for it.

Good drafts are very important. Keeping your good players would seem to be as equally as important. I think a team needs a philosophy under which to operate. One that is in writing and all understand. I always have had this feeling the Cards operate month to month or year to year with no underlying plan or philosophy as to how they plan to reach their goals.

 

[john h]

Thx for all your hard work & thoughts Mitch on the draft for several weeks!!!

1) I think Quan will be a very good player for this team for years

2) I would have prefered Leshore over Williams

3) This team as you say undervalues the importance of 3-4 OLBs & I dont understand why. Horton will never maximize his potential until we adress this.

4) why this team refuses to adress the OT position is mind boggling...chances are Levi is history after this season (not a big loss) but leaves a hole

5) I really, really wish the Redbirds would have chosen Gates in Rd 4 given the uncertainty of #15, #80 & #11...I think we're headed for trouble next year!!!

6) If this team doesn't pull out all the stops to land Palmer, Orton or Kolb Signing Bulger or standing pat IMO spells the end of the Fitz era in AZ

Orton is the designated starter according to statements recently made by his coach. Did he not also just sign an extension? I do not knowif the Cards would pay Palmer what he would want and have no idea what it would take to get him away from his team. He may actually chose to retire. Kolb I simply would not pay what they want and really would prefer one of the other QBs. Also in this mix is most of these better QBs are going to have a choice of what team to go to. It may be the guy we want does not want us.

 

[john h]

Hightower is a fit, Beanie is less so.

Hightower runs exceptionally hard and for good ypc (4.2 & 4.8 the last two years), is tough (lowers his pads and fights for extra yards), is a much improved blocker in pass pro and is a very good receiver (34 catches for 237 yards in 2008, 63 catches for 438 yards in 2009)...and he's got a very good nose for the end zone (10 TDs in 2008, 8 TDs in 2009).

The Cardinals tendered him (RFA) for a reason.

There's a better than 50/50 chance, the Cardinals will try to trade Beanie after the CBA is reached. Beanie fits a more conventional system.

Both of our runners are what I would call power runners. Our new RB is a breakaway type runner with moves. Not great speed by shifty. That is what we have needed so we can show a different type runner and not the same power runners on every run. I can accept either Bennie or Hightower but if I had to make a choice I would keep Hightower.

 

[Duckjake]

Cause they didn't like or trust the ones they had? Do you want them to have Jim Dray stretch the defense on a seam route? Or the great speed demon Stephen Spach? You can't use something you don't have.

You are making the same mistake most of the defenders are. It isn't just a one year thing. It's a 3-4 year trend. Last in rushing attempts in 2008,2009 and 2010 with a 1st round RB on the team in '09 and '10. Few if any passes to the TEs. Pope,Patrick,Spach,Dray it doesn't matter.

It doesn't help your argument any that all the guys they have that you are bashing were brought in by the people who just selected the new ones.

If they couldn't use the TE because they couldn't stretch the field why have they waited 4 years to draft one or get one in free agency? Because they didn't plan to use the TEs as receivers. They were for blocking.

 

[binkar]

You are making the same mistake most of the defenders are. It isn't just a one year thing. It's a 3-4 year trend. Last in rushing attempts in 2008,2009 and 2010. Few if any passes to the TEs. Pope,Patrick,Spach,Dray it doesn't matter.

It doesn't help your argument any that all the guys they have that you are bashing were brought in by the people who just selected the new ones.

If they couldn't use the TE because they couldn't stretch the field why have they waited 4 years to draft one or get one in free agency? Because they didn't use the TEs as receivers. They were for blocking.

As for RB they just took a guy in the first round and gave him 9 carries a game. Now all of a sudden this is going to change simply because we got a new guy.

Do any of those names sound like good receiving TEs? Pope was a 3rd round pick, and failed, you act like the Cardinals are the only organization in football who has draft picks that fail. The rest of these guys were 7th round picks or undrafted.

 

[Duckjake]

Do any of those names sound like good receiving TEs? Pope was a 3rd round pick, and failed, you act like the Cardinals are the only organization in football who has draft picks that fail. The rest of these guys were 7th round picks or undrafted.

My guess is that if they didn't draft a TE, you would complain about them not drafting a TE and how this offense will never be successful until they quit being stupid and draft a decent TE.

So if it was so important why were they only picking up 7th round draft picks and UDFAs?

Because it wasn't important. If they wanted to throw to a TE they would have drafted one before last week. That is why after 4 years of only taking 7th round guys and UDFAs it came as a shock when the Cards grabbed one in the 3rd round.

I guess you missed all the pre draft discussions where some wanted the Cards to draft a TE early and others asked why, they never use them?

 

[binkar]

So if it was so important why were they only picking up 7th round draft picks and UDFAs?

Because it wasn't important. If they wanted to throw to a TE they would have drafted one before last week. That is why after 4 years of only taking 7th round guys and UDFAs it came as a shock when the Cards grabbed one in the 3rd round.

I guess you missed all the pre draft discussions where some wanted the Cards to draft a TE early and others asked why, they never use them?

So you think TEs aren't important? If you think they are, why are you complaining that we finally drafted one? And if you think they are, but just not in our offense, why are you complaining about a philosophy change that finally uses a position you view important?

Just trying to get at the root of what your complaining about.

You complain that they haven't drafted a TE before the 7th round til now, but now we draft one, and you complain about that.

 

[Duckjake]

So you think TEs aren't important? If you think they are, why are you complaining that we finally drafted one? And if you think they are, but just not in our offense, why are you complaining about a philosophy change that finally uses a position you view important?

Just trying to get at the root of what your complaining about.

You complain that they haven't drafted a TE before the 7th round til now, but now we draft one, and you complain about that.

You really don't have a clue what I'm saying do you?

It doesn't matter whether I think the TE is important. The fact is that the Cards haven't thought the TE position was important. What evidence was there that there was going to be a philosophy change before the draft?

I'm done with this because you just keep arguing in circles.

 

[binkar]

You really don't have a clue what I'm saying do you?

It doesn't matter whether I think the TE is important. The fact is that the Cards haven't thought the TE position was important. What evidence was there that there was going to be a philosophy change before the draft?

I'm done with this because you just keep arguing in circles.

Nope.

Why did it have to be before the draft? Sometimes a 5-11 season changes things. I think that's a good thing.

"Now I'm done".

 

[Cardiac]

You really don't have a clue what I'm saying do you?

It doesn't matter whether I think the TE is important. The fact is that the Cards haven't thought the TE position was important. What evidence was there that there was going to be a philosophy change before the draft?

I'm done with this because you just keep arguing in circles.

I for one think there is a couple of reasons for this. Warner was our QB during the good years and he typically doesn't utilize TE's. Whiz took some late rd flyers etc because he did want to upgrade the position but with Warner TE wasn't a major need.

Now we don't have Warner and as Whiz has pointed out we have seen the impact that a freak like TE can have. The NFL is a copy cat league and now the TE position is in vogue again.

Your argument would assume that Whiz can't learn and adapt and I say that's flawed since he is an engineer. (settle down K9 that was tounge in cheek).

Whiz inherited Edge who was no longer an elite back and an O-line that needed tons of work. What he did have was Warner who did find the fountain of youth and played to the strength of the personel he had. This is why I still think Whiz is a heck of a HC.

He takes Beenie with the hopes he can help us transition to a better running team and to this point it hasn't worked. Not wanting to pin all his hopes on Beanie training room Wells and Timmy FUMBLE Hightower he takes a potential impact RB in Williams this year.

Never forget we are fans of a team that the FO has made strides but doesn't have unlimited resources to go "All In" to try and fix everything in one year.

 

[Dougmo]

In regards to a tight end - if these rumours are true about Kolb, you'd thinking having a pass catching tight end (like Celek) would be a good safety blanket for the new QB, helping his transition to the Cards.
Same could be said for RB Williams, very similar in style and skillz to the Westbrooke of old.
If we really are all about getting Kolb, maybe we're trying to become Philly West, at least on offense.

 

[Cardiac]

In regards to a tight end - if these rumours are true about Kolb, you'd thinking having a pass catching tight end (like Celek) would be a good safety blanket for the new QB, helping his transition to the Cards.
Same could be said for RB Williams, very similar in style and skillz to the Westbrooke of old.
If we really are all about getting Kolb, maybe we're trying to become Philly West, at least on offense.

I doubt our offense will transition to the Eagles WCO but your point is spot on about Kolb loves him some TE's with pass catching abilities. If Williams turns out to be Westbrook the 2nd then we had an amazing draft.

 

[kerouac9]

I doubt our offense will transition to the Eagles WCO but your point is spot on about Kolb loves him some TE's with pass catching abilities. If Williams turns out to be Westbrook the 2nd then we had an amazing draft.

The problem is that we didn't draft an immediate contributor at TE; we developed a two-year project at TE. There's no way this WR convert from Florida Atlantic can come in and contribute Year One at TE. My expectation is that we'll see very little from Housler this year (we'll likely sign a blocking TE for close to the minimum in free agency or bring back Spach), and expect Housler to be able to contribute when a new QB comes in for 2012 or Skelton takes/is given the starting job.

 

[Mulli]

The problem is that we didn't draft an immediate contributor at TE; we developed a two-year project at TE. There's no way this WR convert from Florida Atlantic can come in and contribute Year One at TE. My expectation is that we'll see very little from Housler this year (we'll likely sign a blocking TE for close to the minimum in free agency or bring back Spach), and expect Housler to be able to contribute when a new QB comes in for 2012 or Skelton takes/is given the starting job.

Wager alert: How many catches for Housler next season?

 

[Cardiac]

The problem is that we didn't draft an immediate contributor at TE; we developed a two-year project at TE. There's no way this WR convert from Florida Atlantic can come in and contribute Year One at TE. My expectation is that we'll see very little from Housler this year (we'll likely sign a blocking TE for close to the minimum in free agency or bring back Spach), and expect Housler to be able to contribute when a new QB comes in for 2012 or Skelton takes/is given the starting job.

Could be. What would you have done differently then pick Housler or whatever to fix the TE position?

I do think Housler will get some snaps if for no other reason then to run him down the seam to open up the middle for someone else.

 

[kerouac9]

Wager alert: How many catches for Housler next season?

Over/under is 35.

Could be. What would you have done differently then pick Housler or whatever to fix the TE position?

I do think Housler will get some snaps if for no other reason then to run him down the seam to open up the middle for someone else.

NFL.com just came out with an Unofficial 2011 Free Agent Listing that I assume is designed to get fans to beg the NFLPA to come back to the table so that we don't have to convince ourselves that any of these guys are good.

From that list, I'd probably make a run at Bo Scaife or Reggie Kelly. Both are better blockers and will be a temporary fix until we figure out what this offense is going to look like. I think we'll sign a guy like Kelly or Desmond Clark anyway.

I'm kind of with Duck: The TE position doesn't need to be "fixed" because there's no real TE position that the Arizona Cardinals use. It's like buying a boat even though you don't live near water; you're promising yourself that because you made this investment that you'll have to use it. I'm not sure that's the case, since we have had a hard time putting players in a position to be successful.