The Critics are going to think they're Right

[Budden]

Two 15+ game win streaks in 2 months. Two-time MVP. Coach of the year. Most improved player of the year. Western Confernce finals two years in a row. Three all-stars. Like a million ignorant critics.

There's nothing that gets me fired up like the guy who, when watching sportscenter, casually remarks, "The Suns' style of play just doesn't work in the playoffs." We all know the guy: he watches Sportscenter in the morning, reads the occassional Bill Simmons article on ESPN.com, sometimes even goes over to NBA.com to watch the Top 10 Plays of the Night. He seems to know enough about basketball to know what other people think about the League - usually negative - but just not quite enough to actually form his own opinion. He probably saw a Suns game on ABC in like mid-November at a sportsbar, and although he didn't watch the whole game, whenever the rest of the people in the bar got excited, he would glance at the TV to watch the occassional replay of a Shawn Marion ally-oop, a Steve Nash assist (because he can't score, not like Kobe at least) or an Amare Stoudemire tomahawk (all that guy can do is dunk, anyway). He's like an ignorant Charles Barkley - and that's not even a typo.

The thing that pisses me off, is that the way the Suns are playing lately, all the stupid critics who barely ever see the Suns play, who think this is the same soft team from last season, who forget that Joe Johnson was injured against the Spurs in the 2005 WCFs (if they know who that is), who think that all the Suns can do is score, they'll think they were correct all along. The Suns should win it all this year. It's as simple as that. Unfortunately, there's like 15 of us on this board 14 players on the actual team, and we're the only ones who know that (actually, I'm not being fair - I didn't count Diaw as one of the Suns players who knows that we should win a championship, but that's only because as I write this, it's around meal time, which means his mind is undoubtedly on other things: "Hmm.. the Crouisant is fluffy and will probably fill me up a little better, but the chocolate crepe has the fat and the sugar and the yummy... ohh f%&k it I'll have both!" ). If the Suns lose - especially in one of the first two rounds - all the "Suns' style doesn't work in the playoffs" drones will think they've been right all along. All those guys who say the Suns "can't" play defense will feel their acute basketball minds reafirmed, perhaps finally get that confidence to send the ESPN The Magazine job application in. We all have seen the Suns play some great defense; we've seen Bell and Marion lock down the perimeter, Steve Nash take charges and get in passing lanes, Kurt Thomas bang down low, and we've seen Amare Stoudemire claim the defensive paint as his own. The critics would've seen this, but they were reading other people's opinions about it on ESPN.com. And the ESPN.com writers would've seen it, but they were just too darn busy and they don't have NBA League Pass (it's friggin $179.99, dude!).

The critics aren't completely wrong. The Suns have shown a complete lack of defensive focus since the end of the last win streak; their style of play has been tested in the playoffs; Steve Nash has looked particularly mortal since he came back from the shoulder injury. Yet, they still don't know what they are talking about. That's how things go. People voice their opinions on lots of topics about which they know virtually nothing. I just wish that one time they can exposed for it.

 

[Cheesebeef]

so let me guess this straight... if the suns win, the critics are proven wrong and if the suns lose... the critics are... STIIL WRONG?

am i missing something here? if we do lose in the first two rounds, how exactly are the critics wrong again?

 

[green machine]

so let me guess this straight... if the suns win, the critics are proven wrong and if the suns lose... the critics are... STIIL WRONG?

am i missing something here? if we do lose in the first two rounds, how exactly are the critics wrong again?

I think even if the Suns lose in the first two rounds the critics that say that they can't win with this style are still wrong. It would just be that they weren't the better team.

 

[Lorenzo]

what a post. so the suns don't have a problem playing defense and rebounding the basketball? I've watched a lot of suns games this season. and that appears to be a problem. Can the suns win in the playoffs with their style. of corse. But what happens when they play against a team that can outscore them, outrebound them, and outplay them on the defensive end? A championship team has to do it in all areas. If the suns are to win a title......then i'm sure it will be because they got it done in all aspects of the game.

 

[Lorenzo]

Two 15+ game win streaks in 2 months. Two-time MVP. Coach of the year. Most improved player of the year. Western Confernce finals two years in a row. Three all-stars. Like a million ignorant critics.

There's nothing that gets me fired up like the guy who, when watching sportscenter, casually remarks, "The Suns' style of play just doesn't work in the playoffs." We all know the guy: he watches Sportscenter in the morning, reads the occassional Bill Simmons article on ESPN.com, sometimes even goes over to NBA.com to watch the Top 10 Plays of the Night. He seems to know enough about basketball to know what other people think about the League - usually negative - but just not quite enough to actually form his own opinion. He probably saw a Suns game on ABC in like mid-November at a sportsbar, and although he didn't watch the whole game, whenever the rest of the people in the bar got excited, he would glance at the TV to watch the occassional replay of a Shawn Marion ally-oop, a Steve Nash assist (because he can't score, not like Kobe at least) or an Amare Stoudemire tomahawk (all that guy can do is dunk, anyway). He's like an ignorant Charles Barkley - and that's not even a typo.

The thing that pisses me off, is that the way the Suns are playing lately, all the stupid critics who barely ever see the Suns play, who think this is the same soft team from last season, who forget that Joe Johnson was injured against the Spurs in the 2005 WCFs (if they know who that is), who think that all the Suns can do is score, they'll think they were correct all along. The Suns should win it all this year. It's as simple as that. Unfortunately, there's like 15 of us on this board 14 players on the actual team, and we're the only ones who know that (actually, I'm not being fair - I didn't count Diaw as one of the Suns players who knows that we should win a championship, but that's only because as I write this, it's around meal time, which means his mind is undoubtedly on other things: "Hmm.. the Crouisant is fluffy and will probably fill me up a little better, but the chocolate crepe has the fat and the sugar and the yummy... ohh f%&k it I'll have both!" ). If the Suns lose - especially in one of the first two rounds - all the "Suns' style doesn't work in the playoffs" drones will think they've been right all along. All those guys who say the Suns "can't" play defense will feel their acute basketball minds reafirmed, perhaps finally get that confidence to send the ESPN The Magazine job application in. We all have seen the Suns play some great defense; we've seen Bell and Marion lock down the perimeter, Steve Nash take charges and get in passing lanes, Kurt Thomas bang down low, and we've seen Amare Stoudemire claim the defensive paint as his own. The critics would've seen this, but they were reading other people's opinions about it on ESPN.com. And the ESPN.com writers would've seen it, but they were just too darn busy and they don't have NBA League Pass (it's friggin $179.99, dude!).

The critics aren't completely wrong. The Suns have shown a complete lack of defensive focus since the end of the last win streak; their style of play has been tested in the playoffs; Steve Nash has looked particularly mortal since he came back from the shoulder injury. Yet, they still don't know what they are talking about. That's how things go. People voice their opinions on lots of topics about which they know virtually nothing. I just wish that one time they can exposed for it.

then why aren't you on TNT instead?

 

[hsandhu]

Because of my love for the team, I always got really pissed at Barkley, but deep down I (and I suspect many other suns' fans) always knew he was right.

And guess what, he is.

This quote right here sums up exactly why:
"They were playing at a frenzied pace," Suns guard Raja Bell said. "It was tough to keep up with them offensively and defensively. They would've beaten every team in the league tonight. They were that hot."

Until they realize that the reason teams always seem to light it up against us is because when they see they're playing the suns they KNOW regardless of whether they win or lose they're gonna get their shots.

And they feel this way because we have given them ample evidence. Until we prove them wrong (it's possible to change your image see Mavericks, Dallas) we'll always have to deal with teams playing with this mentality against.

It's so frustrating that most guys on the team and the coach always think we just happen to constantly run into hot teams.

 

[pokerface]

Is everyone everywhere supposed to love the Suns? What credit is supposed to be bestowed on them anyway? Look I'm a Suns fans as much as anybody but their game is not traditional.....Its part revolutionary and part gimmick. I think they deserve SOME credit more than they're getting when some critics say "That kind of game doesnt work in the playoffs"....well it must work to some degree for them to make the WCF two years straight while having injuries. But beyond that the Suns have to prove themselves because their defense is porus to say the least. Its strange too because the Suns have quite a few individuals on the team that play solid one-on-one defense but their TEAM defense is really the problem. The Suns seem to play as a team really well until it comes to team defense then they just blow. I guess part of it is D'Antoni's "dont foul" philosiphy but its eroding any team attempt to stop the ball as a group effort.

They better figure this out because we got too much talent to not go all the way.

 

[Lorenzo]

Is everyone everywhere supposed to love the Suns? What credit is supposed to be bestowed on them anyway? Look I'm a Suns fans as much as anybody but their game is not traditional.....Its part revolutionary and part gimmick. I think they deserve SOME credit more than they're getting when some critics say "That kind of game doesnt work in the playoffs"....well it must work to some degree for them to make the WCF two years straight while having injuries. But beyond that the Suns have to prove themselves because their defense is porus to say the least. Its strange too because the Suns have quite a few individuals on the team that play solid one-on-one defense but their TEAM defense is really the problem. The Suns seem to play as a team really well until it comes to team defense then they just blow. I guess part of it is D'Antoni's "dont foul" philosiphy but its eroding any team attempt to stop the ball as a group effort.

They better figure this out because we got too much talent to not go all the way.

no one is saying the suns can't win in the playoffs. There are just some saying that they can't win a title with offense only. I'm a mavs fan, and as good as they have played thus far, i won't give them any credit untill they win a title. I don't care if they win 70 and dirk gets the mvp. What does that mean if they fall in the playoffs? In 2005 the suns were the 2nd to best team in the west, no doubt. The suns were fortunate to draw both LA teams in the playoffs last year. They would not have survived a series with S.A. Having said that both LA teams took phoenix to 7 games. Those LA teams wern't that great IMO. I look back to the mavs in 03. They had a glorious season. Everyone in dallas thought that the mavs could get it done because they won 60 games. They found ways to squeak past the spurs and kings in regular season games, but had a losing record against the elite teams overall. In the playoffs they struggled. They went to 7 games with the blazers a team that abused them on the boards. They then went to 7 games against the kings, despite the fact that chris webber was lost after the 2nd game. Then in the WCF with the spurs they were clearly outclassed in all phases of the game. Dirk was lost to injury in that series, but it didn't matter because the mavs wern't gonna beat the spurs anyway. Offense alone doesn't get it done. This offensive team is better than that of the mavs in 03 though.

 

[Budden]

then why aren't you on TNT instead?

Why do you think I recently started training so that I can make an NBA team? If I become a great clutch shooter, I could fill in for Reggie Miller, a great passer, I could fill in for Magic, a role player on a great team, I could fill in for Kenny Smith, and if I become a great scorer and rebounder, I could fill in for Barkley. If worst comes to worst, I could have a sex change operation, dominate women's basketball, and fill in for Cheryl Miller. (Find a link between each of those TNT analysts and my sarcasm will become apparent).

no one is saying the suns can't win in the playoffs.

Define "no one". Actually, no, don't.

so let me guess this straight... if the suns win, the critics are proven wrong and if the suns lose... the critics are... STIIL WRONG?

am i missing something here? if we do lose in the first two rounds, how exactly are the critics wrong again?

Well, I tried to say it with more elequence and a lot fewer periods, but that is the gist of my post. It's like critisizing the Iraq war by saying it's a disaster because all the Iraqis are so mad at us for taking their beloved Sadaam Hussein out of power. People could write papers entitled "Sadaam: Dictator, tyrant, lover, friend, all-around good guy, and how the U.S. killed Iraq's Number 1 Leading Man." You might be right to criticize Iraq, but that doesn't mean all criticisms are correct.

To clarify my sentiment, I think the Suns need to get their sh*t together, stop playing like p*$$ies, and start beating teams up. I obviously know that the Suns' defense has been crap, and it angers me because we've seen the team be quite effective during short bursts during the season. The critics ARE wrong when they say that the Suns CAN'T win a championship in the playoffs playing their style of basketball because they insinuate that an up-tempo gameplan necessarily means the Suns play no defense. It's impossible to push the ball on offense and defend as well?

See, there's a subtle difference between saying, "The Suns won't win if they don't step up their defense" and "The Suns won't win because their superfast paced style of play doesn't work in the playoffs." One is obvious: of course the suns won't win if they don't play defense. The critics say that because it's simple, and because unless you really pay attention to the Phoenix Suns, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the two above statments. To most people, the Suns don't play defense because all they do is score.

Most of all, I'm angry with the team, because they've shown that they could do both, that they're capable, and yet the majority of the time, they don't. D'Antoni's whole philosophy is, "We're better at running than you are," and that's fine, because the Suns supposed "style of play" doesn't include letting the other team score. Their style of play is at its best when they're forcing turnovers, forcing bad, deep shots, grabbing the long defensive boards, and just generally getting after the ball. That type of scrappy defense fuels their high octane offense. The Suns won't lose in the playoffs because their style of play, that no defense philosophy doesn't translate to the postseason. They'll lose because one of the most integral parts of their style of play is defense, and they haven't been playing it.

 

[elindholm]

Run-and-gun "can" win in the playoffs, but the margin for error is tiny. You have to hit your shots, you have to rebound, you have to hope the other team doesn't get hot, bleah bleah bleah. Teams that defend have lots of different ways to win a game. The Suns have one.

 

[msdundee]

Teams that defend have lots of different ways to win a game. The Suns have one.

The Suns have shown they can play defense. Recaps have written it up as a 'surprise element' after some games. I think that's Budden's point: "They'll lose because one of the most integral parts of their style of play is defense, and they haven't been playing it."

They can -- but they aren't.

Last night Diaw and the bench did a good demonstration of how defense translates into offense. It was too late, but the 20-point comeback was a nice surprise. Let's hope the starters were embarrassed enough to redeem themselves tonight and Sunday.

 

[ma_falaa_50]

after last nights game, Barkley is right. He has been right all season. You guys always criticize Charles but lets not forget Charles played the NBA game. He knows what it takes to win in the NBA.

Im just waiting to see what he says about dantoni specifically. they had 2 days off? there is no way they should have came out the way they did.

I dnt know what Dantoni does during offdays but it doesnt work.

Attitude reflect leadership, the fact that Phx lose to teams like GS shows you the type of leadership on the team. Im not talking about Nash. Its the head coaches job to get these guys mentally ready to play evrygame. there is a reason why Popovich has won 3 nba championship.

call me a troll but after last nights game I think you guys should start blaming the whole PHx suns not just the players.

 

[CaptainInsano]

Pops managed to turn the spurs slumping season around, what is D'antoni going to do?

This is going to be a true test of our coaching and sadly I don't think Mike has anywhere near the wits that popovich has shown.

Funny how the spurs worthless garbage idiot fans were calling for pops to be fired earlier in the year. Real good idea that one was. He was only the coach that got them how many championships again?

Every team has their high and lows but pops showed he can end it and turn things around. Time for mike now to do the same or he is no good and we won't be getting a trophy.

 

[CardNots]

after last nights game, Barkley is right. He has been right all season. You guys always criticize Charles but lets not forget Charles played the NBA game. He knows what it takes to win in the NBA.

I'm sure Barkley's "How to win in the NBA" list of items has the following on the top:

Practice, who needs it...

 

[Skumbag]

after last nights game, Barkley is right. He has been right all season. You guys always criticize Charles but lets not forget Charles played the NBA game. He knows what it takes to win in the NBA.

Im just waiting to see what he says about dantoni specifically. they had 2 days off? there is no way they should have came out the way they did.

I dnt know what Dantoni does during offdays but it doesnt work.

Attitude reflect leadership, the fact that Phx lose to teams like GS shows you the type of leadership on the team. Im not talking about Nash. Its the head coaches job to get these guys mentally ready to play evrygame. there is a reason why Popovich has won 3 nba championship.

call me a troll but after last nights game I think you guys should start blaming the whole PHx suns not just the players.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Because of my love for the team, I always got really pissed at Barkley, but deep down I (and I suspect many other suns' fans) always knew he was right.

And guess what, he is.

This quote right here sums up exactly why:
"They were playing at a frenzied pace," Suns guard Raja Bell said. "It was tough to keep up with them offensively and defensively. They would've beaten every team in the league tonight. They were that hot."

Until they realize that the reason teams always seem to light it up against us is because when they see they're playing the suns they KNOW regardless of whether they win or lose they're gonna get their shots.

And they feel this way because we have given them ample evidence. Until we prove them wrong (it's possible to change your image see Mavericks, Dallas) we'll always have to deal with teams playing with this mentality against.

It's so frustrating that most guys on the team and the coach always think we just happen to constantly run into hot teams.

BINGO! that comment from raja and coach d's comments pissed me off. they just dismiss a drubbing. and that's after other recent drubbings. i don't understand how this team has such a casual attitude. they have yet to prove anything. they have NO HARDWARE. there is no sense of urgency. i see it with the spurs. i see it with the mavs. i see it with the pistons. i even see it with the guys fighting for the last playoff positioning. us? we're just getting everyone on their hot nights and it can't possibly continue, we'll be okay . . . just keep saying that . . . we'll be okay . . . fecch.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

after last nights game, Barkley is right. He has been right all season. You guys always criticize Charles but lets not forget Charles played the NBA game. He knows what it takes to win in the NBA.

Im just waiting to see what he says about dantoni specifically. they had 2 days off? there is no way they should have came out the way they did.

I dnt know what Dantoni does during offdays but it doesnt work.

Attitude reflect leadership, the fact that Phx lose to teams like GS shows you the type of leadership on the team. Im not talking about Nash. Its the head coaches job to get these guys mentally ready to play evrygame. there is a reason why Popovich has won 3 nba championship.

call me a troll but after last nights game I think you guys should start blaming the whole PHx suns not just the players.

agreed. the shine is completely off dantoni. i think he's being exposed as having a great gimmick with unreal players and the rest of the league is catching up. at least, the contenders are catching up (if they haven't already passed us). the gimmick can only last so long, the players can only do so much. they have to be continually put in a position to win i am quickly losing faith in coach d's ability to do so.

 

[msdundee]

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/suns/articles/0330sunsnotes0330.html

 

[elindholm]

agreed. the shine is completely off dantoni. i think he's being exposed as having a great gimmick with unreal players and the rest of the league is catching up.

That's well put. I can't help but think of 1995, when the Rockets were coming back against the Suns in the playoffs (again), and the Johnson-Barkley offense had been completely stalled. The Suns were getting trounced on both ends of the floor, and one of the television guys said, "It looks like the Rockets have the Suns completely figured out."

That was a very painful moment for me as a fan, because it was clearly true. The Suns had gotten as far as this by-now familiar gimmick -- undersized scorers at every position, and the hell with defense -- could take them. For a good team facing the Suns with comparable talent and a smart coach, it's only a matter of time until they solve the puzzle.

European league playoffs are much shorter affairs, usually (or always?) single elimination once you get to the final rounds. It's a lot easier to ride trickery to a title when you need to beat each opponent only once.

 

[elindholm]

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/suns/articles/0330sunsnotes0330.html

"James Jones' NBA season-high streak of consecutive free throws ended Thursday at 45. He missed three in the first quarter."

LOL

 

[Lorenzo]

after last nights game, Barkley is right. He has been right all season. You guys always criticize Charles but lets not forget Charles played the NBA game. He knows what it takes to win in the NBA.

Im just waiting to see what he says about dantoni specifically. they had 2 days off? there is no way they should have came out the way they did.

I dnt know what Dantoni does during offdays but it doesnt work.

Attitude reflect leadership, the fact that Phx lose to teams like GS shows you the type of leadership on the team. Im not talking about Nash. Its the head coaches job to get these guys mentally ready to play evrygame. there is a reason why Popovich has won 3 nba championship.

call me a troll but after last nights game I think you guys should start blaming the whole PHx suns not just the players.

exactly what I meant. Budden i wasn't trying to be mean or anything. I was just trying to point out that barkley may know a thing or two about the game. Since he is a HOF b-ball player. He is a guy who has multiple opinions that most people outside of phoenix apparantly enjoy listening to. Otherwise he wouldn't still be there. Now charles is being realistic rather than being a homer. This guy has been very close with both phoenix and houston. I think he knows down the stretch of a championship series it comes down to a tough rebound or a defensive stop. Those are things that phoenix has to be able to do in the playoffs against teams that can equal their offensive output. So far phoenix hasn't proven him wrong..which is kind of what this thread is about right?

 

[Lorenzo]

Why do you think I recently started training so that I can make an NBA team? If I become a great clutch shooter, I could fill in for Reggie Miller, a great passer, I could fill in for Magic, a role player on a great team, I could fill in for Kenny Smith, and if I become a great scorer and rebounder, I could fill in for Barkley. If worst comes to worst, I could have a sex change operation, dominate women's basketball, and fill in for Cheryl Miller. (Find a link between each of those TNT analysts and my sarcasm will become apparent).


Define "no one". Actually, no, don't.

There are just some saying that phoenix won't win a title. There is no question that they can win in the playoffs.
As far as the first part......go ahead and do what you have to. We would love to see you sit next to charles and debate this issue.

 

[CardNots]

agreed. the shine is completely off dantoni. i think he's being exposed as having a great gimmick with unreal players and the rest of the league is catching up.

That's well put. I can't help but think of 1995, when the Rockets were coming back against the Suns in the playoffs (again), and the Johnson-Barkley offense had been completely stalled. The Suns were getting trounced on both ends of the floor, and one of the television guys said, "It looks like the Rockets have the Suns completely figured out."

I don't believe it was they had us figured out. We suffered injuries to both KJ and Barkley. That is the reason we lost. It wasn't just 1995. Two years we met Houston in the playoffs only to lose the series. Houston went on to win the NBA championship both times.

We always talk about losing the NBA championship to Chicago but I still believe barring injuries in those Houston series we win the two NBA championships.

 

[green machine]

BINGO! that comment from raja and coach d's comments pissed me off. they just dismiss a drubbing. and that's after other recent drubbings. i don't understand how this team has such a casual attitude. they have yet to prove anything. they have NO HARDWARE. there is no sense of urgency. i see it with the spurs. i see it with the mavs. i see it with the pistons. i even see it with the guys fighting for the last playoff positioning. us? we're just getting everyone on their hot nights and it can't possibly continue, we'll be okay . . . just keep saying that . . . we'll be okay . . . fecch.

Guys, what they say to the media is much different from how they actually feel sometimes. You can't go on a profanity laced tirade to the reporter asking you about the game, but you sure as hell better believe that they get pissed off about this stuff.

 

[Lorenzo]

I don't believe it was they had us figured out. We suffered injuries to both KJ and Barkley. That is the reason we lost. It wasn't just 1995. Two years we met Houston in the playoffs only to lose the series. Houston went on to win the NBA championship both times.

We always talk about losing the NBA championship to Chicago but I still believe barring injuries in those Houston series we win the two NBA championships.

I thought maybe mario ellie(spelling) or hakeem may have had something to do with those victories, but that's how many rings now if it wern't for injuries? come on.