The D'Antoni reason we were snubbed by Free Agents

Skkorpion

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This cannot be a serious question. House was let go because, for every game that he hit a few shots and lit the joint up, there were two or three that he was godawful. Playing House is like pumping coins into a slot machine with a huge house take. Once in a while it will pay off, but usually it just depletes your resources.

The House experiment has failed in Boston as well. Yes, he had one big playoff game, but generally he was a detriment. Boston is looking at free agents to fill his role, and speculation is rampant that House will be elsewhere next season.

In fact, D'Antoni gave House every opportunity to succeed, not only giving him regular minutes far beyond what he deserved, but going out of his way to sing his praises whenever he did something right. It took D'Antoni longer than I expected to figure out that House's weaknesses outweighed his strengths, but he got it eventually.

Yes, D'Antoni preferred a short rotation, to a fault. But the main reason that the 9th-12th guys never got off the bench is that they were scrubs. House is a scrub, Burke is a scrub, Marks is a scrub, Tucker is a scrub. The fervent anti-D'Antoni crowd -- which, bizarrely, is almost exactly the same people who were the fervent pro-D'Antoni crowd, until the moment it became clear he and the Suns were parting ways -- now wants to blame the coach for every last one of the team's shortcomings. But categorizing House as the Key Role Player who Got Away is well beyond the bounds of rational thinking.

I agree with all of this except that we keep arguing over the same moot circumstances. I liked D'Antoni a lot. But D'Antoni is gone, House is gone. Kerr is in charge.

The King is dead. Long live the new King.

As BC stated well, base nothing on the D'Antoni era, not even player retention. If Kerr can improve the team by moving Steve Nash or even Stoudemire, do it.

Despite the public company line, it looks to me like we are in rebuild mode, not hole plugging mode.
 

Chris_Sanders

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The problem is we have nothing to rebuild with.

Diaw-Virtually untradable and will get you nothing in return.

Shaq-Definitely untradable.

Nash-Tradable, but never will be unless he demands it. Too much fan backlash.

Bell-Tradable but worth little.

Tucker-Scrub who couldn't even make the developmental league all star team.

Strawberry-Scrub who has a horrible PER and can't shoot.

Draft picks: We have already traded away the max allowable by the NBA.

Robin Lopez: Career journeyman is his ceiling.

Hill: Contract is so low, he will get you nothing back. Maybe a 2nd round pick.

That leaves:

Barbosa and Amare as the only pieces that would net you anything in return.

You can't rebuild with this. They can't even tank because they have no picks.
 

Mainstreet

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As BC stated well, base nothing on the D'Antoni era, not even player retention. If Kerr can improve the team by moving Steve Nash or even Stoudemire, do it.

I don't think BC867 went this far as to throw the baby out with the bath just yet.

He said:

Get rid of Nash? Of course not.

Keep him fresh for the post-season? Of course.

BC867 and I actually agree on this statement. However, I will say if the Suns are not in a serious competition for a long run in the playoffs before the February trading deadline comes along, then I think the Suns should start rebuilding at this point.
 
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HooverDam

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Not only is it irrelevant it's entirely wrong. He focused on short rotations, it wasnt a matter of what he had to work with. Your cause and effect are switch to defend him.

Actually, its not. D'Antoni had said (on multiple occasions) that I'm right. He never said "I think a 7 man rotation is the way to go" but he CONSTANTLY said that he only played the players worth playing.

Lets assume for a second (and this is a crazy assumption) that Robert Sarver was Robert Branson and didn't worry about money, and said "luxury tax be damned". Now in this situation its likely that the Suns wouldn't have shipped off guys like Kurt Thomas and James Jones (who were rotation players under D'Antoni, but you'll probably incorrectly state that they weren't). The Suns would then have their starting 5, plus a bench that was 4 deep (LB, Diaw, Jones, KT) and its resonable to assume (because we have factual proof of it) that D'Antoni would've played a 9 man rotation most games.

If you want to knock D'Antoni for a short bench, thats fine. I agree, he should've used the bench more and tried to develop younger players to a greater degree. However, to say that D'Antoni uses a 7 man rotation as part of his 'system' for no reason at all, is ridiculous.

T
Yes, D'Antoni preferred a short rotation, to a fault. But the main reason that the 9th-12th guys never got off the bench is that they were scrubs. House is a scrub, Burke is a scrub, Marks is a scrub, Tucker is a scrub

Yes, all of this. Seconded
 
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BC867

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I don't think BC867 went this far as to throw the baby out with the bath just yet.

BC867 and I actually agree on this statement. However, I will say if the Suns are not in a serious competition for a long run in the playoffs before the February trading deadline comes along, then I think the Suns should start rebuilding at this point.
As much as I wanted to see D'Antoni gone for wasting our potential to be successful in the post-season, I would like to see the Suns not rebuild for another two years.

I believe that, if coached efficiently, the Suns (with a little more tweaking) could be legitimate Championship contenders for these next two seasons.

I've been a Suns fan for these last 37 of their 40 years. I want to enjoy a Suns team strong enough to win it all.

Let me say that again. I want to enjoy a Suns team strong enough to win it all.
 

JCSunsfan

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This cannot be a serious question. House was let go because, for every game that he hit a few shots and lit the joint up, there were two or three that he was godawful. Playing House is like pumping coins into a slot machine with a huge house take. Once in a while it will pay off, but usually it just depletes your resources.

The House experiment has failed in Boston as well. Yes, he had one big playoff game, but generally he was a detriment. Boston is looking at free agents to fill his role, and speculation is rampant that House will be elsewhere next season.

In fact, D'Antoni gave House every opportunity to succeed, not only giving him regular minutes far beyond what he deserved, but going out of his way to sing his praises whenever he did something right. It took D'Antoni longer than I expected to figure out that House's weaknesses outweighed his strengths, but he got it eventually.

Yes, D'Antoni preferred a short rotation, to a fault. But the main reason that the 9th-12th guys never got off the bench is that they were scrubs. House is a scrub, Burke is a scrub, Marks is a scrub, Tucker is a scrub. The fervent anti-D'Antoni crowd -- which, bizarrely, is almost exactly the same people who were the fervent pro-D'Antoni crowd, until the moment it became clear he and the Suns were parting ways -- now wants to blame the coach for every last one of the team's shortcomings. But categorizing House as the Key Role Player who Got Away is well beyond the bounds of rational thinking.

When you expect every player below 7 or 8 in the rotation to be a minimum salaried player (we even like some of the rotation guys to be vet minimum players --Grant Hill), you can expect that they will be scrubs.

If you want a deeper bench, you have to use some of that MLE to get it.
 

JCSunsfan

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If you want to succeed in today's NBA without losing money, you have to be very careful about who gets your max contracts. That's why we couldn't match Joe Johnson. Marion had a max deal, Amare had a max deal, Nash had a near max deal. There was just no way. BTW, if we had signed him earlier, we would be probably trying to deal him now.

Each team can really only afford two max contracts. If it has three, it will have vet minimum players for depth.

So you have to say sayanara to mid-range players that demand max money (like Rashard Lewis and Bynum). Those players will end up going to lesser teams that have to over pay to get talent on board, and then those salaries will prevent them from improving. Catch 22.
 

Skkorpion

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The problem is we have nothing to rebuild with.

Diaw-Virtually untradable and will get you nothing in return.

Shaq-Definitely untradable.

Nash-Tradable, but never will be unless he demands it. Too much fan backlash.

Bell-Tradable but worth little.

Tucker-Scrub who couldn't even make the developmental league all star team.

Strawberry-Scrub who has a horrible PER and can't shoot.

Draft picks: We have already traded away the max allowable by the NBA.

Robin Lopez: Career journeyman is his ceiling.

Hill: Contract is so low, he will get you nothing back. Maybe a 2nd round pick.

That leaves:

Barbosa and Amare as the only pieces that would net you anything in return.

You can't rebuild with this. They can't even tank because they have no picks.

I disagree on Lopez' upside and also believe Diaw has some upside. But the rest seems on target.
 

Mainstreet

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If you want to succeed in today's NBA without losing money, you have to be very careful about who gets your max contracts. That's why we couldn't match Joe Johnson. Marion had a max deal, Amare had a max deal, Nash had a near max deal. There was just no way. BTW, if we had signed him earlier, we would be probably trying to deal him now.

JJ was the right player to sign especially when he was eligible for the extension of 55 million or even match the Atlanta offer the following season. The Suns would then have been forced to move Marion in any regard to keep JJ which would have been the right move. JJ was the more versatile player and could play the 2/3. Moving Marion should have made JJ feel like he was moving up the pecking order.
 

Irish

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The problem is we have nothing to rebuild with.

Diaw-Virtually untradable and will get you nothing in return.

Shaq-Definitely untradable.

Nash-Tradable, but never will be unless he demands it. Too much fan backlash.

Bell-Tradable but worth little.

Tucker-Scrub who couldn't even make the developmental league all star team.

Strawberry-Scrub who has a horrible PER and can't shoot.

Draft picks: We have already traded away the max allowable by the NBA.

Robin Lopez: Career journeyman is his ceiling.

Hill: Contract is so low, he will get you nothing back. Maybe a 2nd round pick.

That leaves:

Barbosa and Amare as the only pieces that would net you anything in return.

You can't rebuild with this. They can't even tank because they have no picks.

Since you being with the notion that you need to trade everyone, clearly you've answered your question. However, unless you are getting offers for one sided deals, trading is a problematic strategy.

Take the Spurs. If you traded away their big three, do you think you could get back enough to win the championship? I doubt it.

In economics, there is a distinction between "use value" and "exchange value". When someone or something has greater use falue thant trade value, you don't deal. If they have more trade value than use value, then you do deal. The value may not be immediate, but use value is something you reasonable expect. In a construction project, trying to sell a building that is only half done is almost always a loser. My guess is that it is the same with salling development players.

In any case, the Suns have a team of guys who are far more valuable to them than in exchange. Bell is a hugely important player to the way the team plays: soldi defender, high percentage shooter, and general toughness. Saying he's worthless because you can't get much for him totally misses the point.

Teams are more the sum of their parts. Frankly, I'm really surprised you've fallen into that trap.

BTW, Tucker did not mayke the D-League all star team because he wasn't there long enough. I am unclear what they were trying to do, but much of the season the team had only 13 contract people so they'd bring the guys back anytime someone had a hangnail.

I do have a question. What do you think of Chandler and what does he do that Robin will never be able to do?
 
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mojorizen7

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The problem is we have nothing to rebuild with.

Diaw-Virtually untradable and will get you nothing in return.

Shaq-Definitely untradable.

Nash-Tradable, but never will be unless he demands it. Too much fan backlash.

Bell-Tradable but worth little.

Tucker-Scrub who couldn't even make the developmental league all star team.

Strawberry-Scrub who has a horrible PER and can't shoot.

Draft picks: We have already traded away the max allowable by the NBA.

Robin Lopez: Career journeyman is his ceiling.

Hill: Contract is so low, he will get you nothing back. Maybe a 2nd round pick.

That leaves:

Barbosa and Amare as the only pieces that would net you anything in return.

You can't rebuild with this. They can't even tank because they have no picks.
I agree with your individual assesment however a package involving Nash and/or Bell,Barbosa, maybe Diaw could net a top notch starter(or two)plus multiple draft picks IMO. Kerr could rebuild the team in a day with a well researched trade like that.
As far as Nash backlash...most definately, but as a GM you've got to think about the future of the team.
Philly once traded their superstar away...they blew the deal but hey....it happens. The T-Wolves traded their superstar. The Sonics traded their superstar away near the end of his career.....Payton was God up there.
Just sayin.
 
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D-Dogg

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I don't think that 'Antoni is a good coach, but he sure made the Suns into a damn fun to watch team. They were exciting, and contenders. And this is coming from a guy who wanted to see your guys fail...but at the same time, they were damn fun to watch play and when they were hot, they were the most exciting team in the league.
 

SirStefan32

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In economics, there is a distinction between "use value" and "exchange value". When someone or something has greater use falue thant trade value, you don't deal. If they have more trade value than use value, then you do deal. The value may not be immediate, but use value is something you reasonable expect. In a construction project, trying to sell a building that is only half done is almost always a loser. My guess is that it is the same with salling development players.

In any case, the Suns have a team of guys who are far more valuable to them than in exchange. Bell is a hugely important player to the way the team plays: soldi defender, high percentage shooter, and general toughness. Saying he's worthless because you can't get much for him totally misses the point.

Teams are more the sum of their parts.

Excellent post! :thumbup:
 

Chris_Sanders

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I agree with your individual assesment however a package involving Nash and/or Bell,Barbosa, maybe Diaw could net a top notch starter(or two)plus multiple draft picks IMO. Kerr could rebuild the team in a day with a well researched trade like that.
As far as Nash backlash...most definately, but as a GM you've got to think about the future of the team.
Philly once traded their superstar away...they blew the deal but hey....it happens. The T-Wolves traded their superstar. The Sonics traded their superstar away near the end of his career.....Payton was God up there.
Just sayin.

Nash would absolutely net us the biggest return, especially if you sent him to Toronto. I just don't see the Suns ever trading him unless he pitches a fit.
 

Treesquid PhD

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I doubt the Suns would ever take a risk like the one they would be doing by dealing Nash in this contract. If it came to that then things would essentially have to be out of control (Maybe like Chris said if Nash forces his way out or we are losing 40+ games) for franchise ownership to deal him. Even then I think Porter would be sacrificed before Nash.

How much someone could fetch in return has almost nothing to do with the equation anymore, this is one of the biggest differences in the former regime and one that will take a few more cycles for fans to fully grasp. We as a collective still look upon the Suns as we did in the 90's, downcycles were met with proactive and sometimes massive change, stars delt without regard to popularity, bridges burned, free agents wooed with $$$. I don't think this is how the Suns will play it ever again. Until attendence and rating trends are moving downwards and revenues are impacted, you will see a much more conservative approach in dealing high profile players than previous down cycles.

It my mind it's much more likely that Nash is extended than traded. Maybe with the Colangelos Nash would be at risk, hell I remember when KJ for Richmond was essentailly a "done deal." With Sarver and his investors, they rely heavily on sponsors and attendence, atm dealing your most popular player since Barkley coming off a 55 win season makes almost no sense from a business perspective. No, some of you don't really get that this franchise isn't about selling it's soul to desperately win anymore, I am not saying it's a bad thing to have more structure and process in your decision making but there are downsides too, like taking advantage of your tradable assets while they are at their peak.
 
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nowagimp

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Jalen Rose got shafted in Phoenix. He could play but didn't get a chance. I remember a stretch of games where he was playing with the first unit guys and doing well, then his playing time just stopped. Why?

Everyone assumes it was because he COULDN'T play well anymore, but D'antoni's strict 7 or 8 players only policy prevented him from playing his last years in the NBA because now there is a question about Jalen as to why didn't D'antoni play him. No other teams want to take that chance. It ended his career not playing in PHX all because of D'amtoni.

And the garbage time, when he puts in ALL the guys he never plays and then he gets visibly frustrated and basically says "See they suck". Do you honestly think you will see a coherent bench unit play well together under those circumstances? ******* coaching 101.

Wow sounds like you didnt do your homework on jalen rose! Rose's knees were shot, he could no longer move laterally well enough to guard a swing guy or a PG. He really had no one he could defend on the floor anymore. Putting him out there on the permieter guarding a guy who is going to go to the rack everytime will just get amare stoudemore fouled out, or alot of free shots on the perimieter as jalen plays 8' off his man. This was the report on rose BEFORE the suns signed him, and its the reason that he hasnt been offered another contract in the NBA.

Is tyron lue any better, who knows, but dallas isnt interested, warning flag!
 

dreamcastrocks

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So do we blame D'Antoni for Grant Hill, and Gordon Giricek too?
 

Irish

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So do we blame D'Antoni for Grant Hill, and Gordon Giricek too?

Sure, why not? :)

Seriously, the lack of adequate backup for Hill meant his injury never could get a chance to heal completely.

Giricek did not play especially well in the playoffs, but I can't see how D'Antoni had anything to do with it.
 

shazaam6

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Wow sounds like you didnt do your homework on jalen rose! Rose's knees were shot, he could no longer move laterally well enough to guard a swing guy or a PG. He really had no one he could defend on the floor anymore. Putting him out there on the permieter guarding a guy who is going to go to the rack everytime will just get amare stoudemore fouled out, or alot of free shots on the perimieter as jalen plays 8' off his man. This was the report on rose BEFORE the suns signed him, and its the reason that he hasnt been offered another contract in the NBA.

Is tyron lue any better, who knows, but dallas isnt interested, warning flag!

Actually I just was going by memory but Jalen was playing ok in March for a few games then had an 0-4 game and then no other chances. That's what I remembered. I just don't get D'antoni and his playing time management that's all. Oh and the defense thing too.:shrug:
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/2636/gamelog;_ylt=AtCe36r_7VvOIRkoICtOw7ukvLYF?year=2006
 

shazaam6

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So do we blame D'Antoni for Grant Hill, and Gordon Giricek too?
You can thank D'antoni if you want. Nash is who the players want to play with though. Especially before last year because it looks like he lost a little something.

Grant Hill is a gift to us, I thank him for playing for a fraction of what he could have received somewhere else. Actually Sarver should thank him for saving him millions.

If players had the choice, who on the Suns would follow D'antoni to the Knicks? Who would stay here and play with Nash?
 
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Errntknght

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I wouldn't be surprised if Barbosa would opt to follow Mike to the Knicks and I guess Diaw wouldn't surprise me either. Heck, Nash might even elect that option... he's not likely to have as much freedom to play his game under many other coaches.
 

nowagimp

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Actually I just was going by memory but Jalen was playing ok in March for a few games then had an 0-4 game and then no other chances. That's what I remembered. I just don't get D'antoni and his playing time management that's all. Oh and the defense thing too.:shrug:
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/2636/gamelog;_ylt=AtCe36r_7VvOIRkoICtOw7ukvLYF?year=2006

When you are relying on a guy no one else wants to be your 7th man, you have a problem with your bench. Rose did OK on offense, smart player, but he was killed on defense, had to let his man shoot. DA already had nash, amare and LB out there at times on defense. Putting jalen rose with no knees out there seemed to just collapse the defense. The suns have had their issues on defense with old guys, adding more old guys just killed them on FG% defense.
 

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