"The Diamondbacks are not going to win if Dessens is pitching" this was said

[Lefty]

by Dan Ryan of KVOA Sports before showing today's Diamondbacks highlights. Ryan said he wondered what the Diamondbacks are thinking by keeping him in the rotation.

I wonder when Brenly will say "enough is enough?"

 

[Evil Ash]

The problem right now is we have no one to replace him with (All of our AAA pitchers are stinking up the joint right now). When Fossum gets healthy (which looks to be soon), he'll take Dessens' place in the starting rotation.

 

[devilalum]

The problem right now is we have no one to replace him with (All of our AAA pitchers are stinking up the joint right now). When Fossum gets healthy (which looks to be soon), he'll take Dessens' place in the starting rotation.

I remember reading that Fossum also has trouble going deep into games. He's on the small side and gets worn out after about 80 pitches.

 

[Evil Ash]

I remember reading that Fossum also has trouble going deep into games. He's on the small side and gets worn out after about 80 pitches.

All I want from him is to get those 80-90 pitches to get us through the 6th inning (Elmer can't even get that far). Anything more than that is a bonus IMO

 

[AZZenny]

Tucson - - - - - -- - - - -IP H R ER BB SO HR - ERA
Casey Fossum (W 2-0) 6.0 5 0 0 0 8 0 - 0.00

Can't find how many pitches - but my guess is this means one more Tucson start, at least. They wanted him able to go about 90-100 pitches before call-up as a starter. Nevertheless, this looks promising, so far.

 

[BC867]

From today's Arizona Republic.

Manager Bob Brenly said Elmer Dessens will remain in the starting rotation despite his 1-4 record and 7.85 ERA.

"He's going to pitch again in five days (Tuesday), that second game against the Mets if I'm not mistaken", Brenly said.

Until we can replace Dessens and cut him loose, how about a proactive approach?

On the Miracle Mets of '69, Manager Gil Hodges had a problem with the #4 spot in the rotation. Following Tom Seaver, Jerry Koosman, and Gary Gentry (great/very good/good), he had a problem.

So he set a tandem of two pitchers covering 8 innings every 4th game. A rookie with blisters, who soaked his hand in pickle juice -- yeah, that was Nolan Ryan -- and a decent 4-inning Pitcher named Jim McAndrew.

Not only did it turn a negative into a positive during the season. It enabled the Ryan Express to fourish for a long, long time. And he become one of the all-time greats.

Gil Hodges sized up the situation and reacted well. For the present . . . for the future.

Bob Brenly, on the other hand, sticks blindly with a few obsessions . . . and contradicts everything else he says by the next day.

We can do better. We need to do better. This is just another example.

 

[AZZenny]

I think you give BB WAY too much credit/blame for who he has to play with. I heard on radio, on two different programs, that he is determined to be rid of Dessens as soon as he's given an opportunity by the GM, and just this week heard that JoeBlows has 'finally agreed.'

I bet it is the person whose ego is riding on the personnel decision - in this case Nincompoop with his two-year contract to Dessens - who insisted they stick with Dessens a bit longer. Note, GM's job is not in danger because of Elmer's failings, so it's not as pressing for him to act fast; if Elmer straightened out, Joe would look less incompetent.

You listen to BB in interviews or watch his face during Elmer's outings and he is plainly fed up, and has been for two weeks. But he doesn't HAVE the right guys in the pen to do what Gil Hodges did, even if he wanted to. And he can't call Tucson and say, "Send me Good, Service, and Bruney. You're taking Oscar, Mantei, and Choate." He has to persuade the GM to move guys up and down and out to suit his needs, and it may not be as simple as ordering fries at a drive-through.

 

[sly fly]

I think you give BB WAY too much credit/blame for who he has to play with. I heard on radio, on two different programs, that he is determined to be rid of Dessens as soon as he's given an opportunity by the GM, and just this week heard that JoeBlows has 'finally agreed.'

I bet it is the person whose ego is riding on the personnel decision - in this case Nincompoop with his two-year contract to Dessens - who insisted they stick with Dessens a bit longer. Note, GM's job is not in danger because of Elmer's failings, so it's not as pressing for him to act fast; if Elmer straightened out, Joe would look less incompetent.

You listen to BB in interviews or watch his face during Elmer's outings and he is plainly fed up, and has been for two weeks. But he doesn't HAVE the right guys in the pen to do what Gil Hodges did, even if he wanted to. And he can't call Tucson and say, "Send me Good, Service, and Bruney. You're taking Oscar, Mantei, and Choate." He has to persuade the GM to move guys up and down and out to suit his needs, and it may not be as simple as ordering fries at a drive-through.

Wow, your content for Joe G. is amazing. You must forget about the World Series ring, division titles, and flourishing farm system.

How does one get so spoiled in such a short amount of time?

 

[AZZenny]

World Series ring, division titles, and flourishing farm system.
I give Showalter some credit for personnel decisions early on - reportedly Joe hated Buck riding herd over him. Buck might be a good GM. JC also had his hands very openly on the big signings - Matt Williams, RJ, Curt, Grace, Sexson.

I give Joe almost no credit for the WS, in fact; sorry you find that 'spoiled.'

Farm system think Mike Rizzo and Tommy Jones - I will give Joe credit for keeping some excellent admin staff.

I am not saying he is the worst - but I think he is in the bottom third. Look at the player and contract decisions that are pretty much all his, and he just doesn't look so good. He can't pick up middle-rotation starters, and he thinks RBIs are a player-specific stat not a team stat. Lopez, Helling, Dessens, Shane Reynolds.

But in this case, I was merely saying Brenly doesn't have final say over what personnel he has to put on the field and it's silly to blame him for playing Elmer.

 

[sly fly]

I can pretty much guarantee that every decision Joe G. makes is a "group" decision. He looks brilliant if it pans out, and gets ridden by people like you if it doesn't.

I guess that goes with the territory of being a GM.

I would rather have Joe G. entrenched here than having to deal with the merr-go-round circus and unstableness of some org's. (Dodgers... cough... Dodgers).

Looks like the overall "formula" of this franchise is working so far. I tend to cut them some slack due to the astronomical success to date.

 

[BC867]

I can pretty much guarantee that every decision Joe G. makes is a "group" decision. He looks brilliant if it pans out, and gets ridden by people like you if it doesn't.

I've felt that all along. The "group" being Jerry Colangelo.

Obviously, when you hire a players' agent (and son of your part-time announcer) as baseball G.M. -- and your own son (equally inexperienced) as basketball G.M. -- it's for people to obediently carry out the Boss' decisions.

Looks like the overall "formula" of this franchise is working so far. I tend to cut them some slack due to the astronomical success to date.

The astronomical success, since the self-destruction of Showalter, was during Brenly's initial season. Since then it's gone downhill steadily.

Before you call where we're at right now a success, you have to look at which direction we're heading -- up or down. We're certainly on a downhill spiral. That's a reflection of management.

 

[KingLouieLouie]

The problem Joe G. Jr. encountered was the Dbacks lacked (until they found out about how to generate more revenue) the means necessary to acquire better talent than the likes of Reynolds and Sparks..... He probably could have also acquired several pitchers via trade, but didnt want to sacrifice any of the Dbacks elite prospects...So, essentially he was very constricted on what he could do....

The only thing that I fault Joe G. Jr. for was acquiring "damaged goods" and I'm still trying to figure out the logic behind that... I understand if it's not a lingering career threatening injury, that player could be obtained at a bargain, however, when you receive 2 injured pitchers for Schilling, then something is beyond wrong....

 

[moviegeekjn]

Before you call where we're at right now a success, you have to look at which direction we're heading -- up or down. We're certainly on a downhill spiral. That's a reflection of management.

That depends on whether you look at the immediate look of the team on the field, or can see what's coming up through the organization (assuming JC and Joe Jr. don't deplete the system in favor of aged/damaged goods)

 

[KingLouieLouie]

That depends on whether you look at the immediate look of the team on the field, or can see what's coming up through the organization (assuming JC and Joe Jr. don't deplete the system in favor of aged/damaged goods)

That is a good point.... I am wondering if the Dbacks were in contention in August, would you sacrifice a top prospect to just "rent-a-player" for the final 2 months of the season (ala Mondesi), or do they "stand-pat" knowing that they need a solid core of second generation players to remain successful over the long-haul?

 

[schillingfan]

The problem Joe G. Jr. encountered was the Dbacks lacked (until they found out about how to generate more revenue) the means necessary to acquire better talent than the likes of Reynolds and Sparks..... He probably could have also acquired several pitchers via trade, but didnt want to sacrifice any of the Dbacks elite prospects...So, essentially he was very constricted on what he could do....

The only thing that I fault Joe G. Jr. for was acquiring "damaged goods" and I'm still trying to figure out the logic behind that... I understand if it's not a lingering career threatening injury, that player could be obtained at a bargain, however, when you receive 2 injured pitchers for Schilling, then something is beyond wrong....

It's much easier to look like a smart GM when you have a boatload of money. The D-Backs payroll was over $100 mil in 2001. Joe Jr. made some pretty dumb contracts, such as Mantei and the long departed Stottlemyre, Womack, etc. etc. Those decisions, of course with the approval and probably urging of Colangelo are now being paid for in deferments and taking up today's and tomorrow's payroll.

It's a lot harder to make good decisions on a limited payroll. I haven't seen an indicating that Joe Jr. is capable of that. The Dessens contract seems a primary example. And remember that Billy Beane considered Durazo the holy grail. Bad enough to get a horrible pitcher for Durazo, let alone give him a second year guaranteed.

The Schilling trade didn't yield much, but Curt hampered it by having that pesky no-trade clause (given by Joe, Jr.). You don't have much leverage in that case. Interestingly the Phillies traded the two guys they offered for Curt to Minnesota and they are doing great. I've heard different stories from both Philly and Arizona as to why they couldn't work a deal. The Philly people say that the D-Backs were adamantly opposed to trading Curt to an NL team. That also reduced the trading parents and possible talent.