The finals

[LakeShowMan]

Again, as Sheed alluded to, they knew that Kobe and Shaq were going to get theirs, but they were going to clamp down on the scrubs, who all they can do is make wide open shots. This defense exposed the Lakers for what they are; two unbelievable talents, and a bunch of idiots who can't do anything except hit wide open shots.

Anyone else derive great pleasure from Corliss Williamson making Rick Fox look like a bitch?

That may be true, but it wouldn't have worked if the Lakers would have continued to go to Shaquille. There is no reason he should have had less than 30-40 FGA that game. He was even hitting his throws, so there really is no excuse for not getting it to the big guy, and force them out of single coverage. The Lakers just didn't take advantage of the mismatches presented to them.

Of course none of that would have even mattered had they come out with the defensive intensity that they played with in the last 4 games of the Spurs series. Unfortunately, they were able to win the WCF in cruise control, and more than likely thought they could do the same in the Finals.

Props to Detroit, for executing Larry Brown's gameplan to perfection. They played very well. With that said, I have a feeling they will be playing against a very different Laker team on Tuesday

 

[SweetD]

Shaq got tired he can't handle the ball that many times.

 

[ajcardfan]

As much as I would enjoy watching the Lakers lose to the Pistons, I can't figure out if it would good for the league or not. Maybe it'd get more interest in the sense that anyone can win the title. But, do we really want more teams scoring under 80 on a regular basis?

I think it was the Sixers that beat the Lakers in game 1, and then lost four straight. But, I think Detroit is a tougher matchup and this Lakers team is not as good as that one was.

 

[LakeShowMan]

Shaq got tired he can't handle the ball that many times.

He may have gotten tired, but that is not why he didn't get the ball. The Lakers practically ignored him for the whole 3rd quarter, and for most of the 2nd half in general. Like Shaq said when the press asked him if he was tired:

"I was tired of not getting the ball." - Shaq after game one.

 

[Joe Mama]

He may have gotten tired, but that is not why he didn't get the ball. The Lakers practically ignored him for the whole 3rd quarter, and for most of the 2nd half in general. Like Shaq said when the press asked him if he was tired:

"I was tired of not getting the ball." - Shaq after game one.

exactly. I really don't understand what happens to the Lakers eventually sometimes. Shaquille O'Neal was killing the Pistons in the first half. I know they played Campbell more, and he did a better job on Shaq because of his size. But there was simply no excuse for not forcing the ball down to Shaquille O'Neal constantly.

BTW I was going to wait a few more games to say this, but I can't help myself. Does anybody on this message board that watched last night's game still honestly believe that Shawn Marion is anywhere near the defender that Tayshaun Prince is? Kobe Bryant scored, but I believe he was only 10-27 for the game. He really only got away from Prince a few times last night.

I couldn't believe how many wide-open shots Karl Malone passed up last night. It was as if he was completely afraid to assert himself offensively.

The Detroit Pistons have too clear advantages in this series... their defense and their depth. Both were quite evident last night. Still, I fully expect the Lakers to win this series even though I was desperately trying to place a $20 bet on the Pistons to win the championship before last night's game.

The best thing about last night's game was the officiating. There's really no way either team could complain about it. Sure, there were a few calls that could have gone either way for both sides, but overall it was very well officiated.

I agree with LakeShow's prediction for Game 2. I think the Lakers will blow out the Pistons.

Joe Mama

 

[Chaplin]

BTW I was going to wait a few more games to say this, but I can't help myself. Does anybody on this message board that watched last night's game still honestly believe that Shawn Marion is anywhere near the defender that Tayshaun Prince is? Kobe Bryant scored, but I believe he was only 10-27 for the game. He really only got away from Prince a few times last night.

Joe Mama

I may be wrong, but I don't remember reading anything that said Marion was a better defender than Prince. There was a lot of "Marion is a better PLAYER overall" than Prince, and I still agree with that.

 

[Chaplin]

I agree with LakeShow's prediction for Game 2. I think the Lakers will blow out the Pistons.

Joe Mama

I think there is a very good chance that the Lakers will win Game 2, in fact, I think it's almost probable, but I'm not sure where you get the idea that the Lakers will "blow out" the Pistons.

 

[LakeShowMan]

I think there is a very good chance that the Lakers will win Game 2, in fact, I think it's almost probable, but I'm not sure where you get the idea that the Lakers will "blow out" the Pistons.

I know that this wasn't directed at me, but I'll tell you why I think there will be a blow out. First of all, there is a tenedency for teams that take the first one on the road in NBA playoff series to relax. It is very natural. Many teams go into the first few games looking for a split, to take away home court advantage. Many times, teams let up just enough, and don't have the same edge that propels them to the first victory. The ability to stay up for that second game is what seperates the truly legendary teams from the good or even great teams. It happens ALL the time.

Second, the Lakers know that they can't just win this series in cruise control. Contrary to what they say, they obviously did just that in the WCF. They realize that won't cut it. You will see a much more defensive minded, higher energy team on Tuesday.

Third, Phil and staff are historically very good at making adjustments. Most people don't think they are, but the have been going all the way back to the first 3-peat with the Bulls. They don't usually do a great job with 'in game' adjustments, but there is nobody in the business who does a better job in game to game situations in the playoff format.

I think maybe the most important thing is, the Lakers know they need to come out and make a statement. Nobody, other than Shaq played well. Kobe did a good job on Rip defensively, but he forced to many bad shots, and looked to be struggling some with Prince's length. We are going to come out and play a big time game, atnd it will most likely start on the defensive side of the court.

 

[Chaplin]

No offense intended, LSM, but while you make some valid points, you are also a Laker fan, and I was curious to see why Joe, a guy who doesn't like the Lakers at all, thinks that it will be a blow-out.

 

[LakeShowMan]

No offense intended, LSM, but while you make some valid points, you are also a Laker fan, and I was curious to see why Joe, a guy who doesn't like the Lakers at all, thinks that it will be a blow-out.

None taken, Chap. Although sometimes I like to kid myself and say that I try to be objective as possible (I still think I do as good a job as any die-hard fan can do), I am sure I see most things with purple and gold tinted glasses.

 

[Joe Mama]

None taken, Chap. Although sometimes I like to kid myself and say that I try to be objective as possible (I still think I do as good a job as any die-hard fan can do), I am sure I see most things with purple and gold tinted glasses.

Actually you just saved me a bunch of time. I think the Lakers will come out with a lot more energy. Gary Payton and especially Karl Malone will be much more aggressive. The Pistons played a good game yesterday, but the Lakers played poorly as a team. I don't believe that will happen again tomorrow.

Unlike LakeShow I'm hoping like hell that I'm wrong though.

Joe Mama

 

[Chaplin]

Actually you just saved me a bunch of time. I think the Lakers will come out with a lot more energy. Gary Payton and especially Karl Malone will be much more aggressive. The Pistons played a good game yesterday, but the Lakers played poorly as a team. I don't believe that will happen again tomorrow.

Unlike LakeShow I'm hoping like hell that I'm wrong though.

Joe Mama

I have no doubt that is probably true, but I'm not so sure that Detroit will easily back down to such an onslaught.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Detroit played very well, and made a lot of jumpers that they haven't made lately. Lakers looked lacadazical (sp?), and did not get the ball to Shaquille enough.

Lakers will win Tuesday by 15-20 points. Lakers still win in 6.

i agree that lakers will win in 6 - ugh. but what we saw last night was that the east undeniably plays a better brand of defense. i don't recall ANY of the teams the lakers faced this post season d-ing them up the way detroit did.

i also think we'll see less of kobe on rip. i think chasing him around all those screens HAS to take a toll at the offensive end of things. and i think kobe can more effectively shut down an on-ball player, like chauncey, so the move doesn't hurt the lakers.

but regardless, i revel in the laker loss last night . . . good times, good times.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Anyone else derive great pleasure from Corliss Williamson making Rick Fox look like a bitch?

i almost wept i was so happy.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

exactly. I really don't understand what happens to the Lakers eventually sometimes. Shaquille O'Neal was killing the Pistons in the first half. I know they played Campbell more, and he did a better job on Shaq because of his size. But there was simply no excuse for not forcing the ball down to Shaquille O'Neal constantly.

BTW I was going to wait a few more games to say this, but I can't help myself. Does anybody on this message board that watched last night's game still honestly believe that Shawn Marion is anywhere near the defender that Tayshaun Prince is? Kobe Bryant scored, but I believe he was only 10-27 for the game. He really only got away from Prince a few times last night.

I couldn't believe how many wide-open shots Karl Malone passed up last night. It was as if he was completely afraid to assert himself offensively.

The Detroit Pistons have too clear advantages in this series... their defense and their depth. Both were quite evident last night. Still, I fully expect the Lakers to win this series even though I was desperately trying to place a $20 bet on the Pistons to win the championship before last night's game.

The best thing about last night's game was the officiating. There's really no way either team could complain about it. Sure, there were a few calls that could have gone either way for both sides, but overall it was very well officiated.

I agree with LakeShow's prediction for Game 2. I think the Lakers will blow out the Pistons.

Joe Mama

i'm agreeing with you waaaaaaay too much today. again, i agree with everything you said. the prince-marion defensive comparison is silly. prince blows him away. he's an awkward defender, but his wingspan and 6'9 height provide him w/ an advantage that marion cannot match. and i thought the officiating was really very good last night.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

No offense intended, LSM, but while you make some valid points, you are also a Laker fan, and I was curious to see why Joe, a guy who doesn't like the Lakers at all, thinks that it will be a blow-out.

chap, i hate the lakers also, but i agree, blowout. maybe not early, but in the final stanza, prolly 15 - 20 points.

i agree with lakeshowman that phil is very good at making post-game adjustments. it's one of the reasons (along w/ the fact that he's always had the one or two best players in the game - spoiled) that he's been so successful against so many different teams through the years. also, i will be very surprised if kobe has another subpar shooting night like last night. i greatly respect prince's defense, but kobe will take it up a notch, and the refs, inevitably, will start making the laker-favorable calls. it's inevitable. why fight it?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Actually you just saved me a bunch of time. I think the Lakers will come out with a lot more energy. Gary Payton and especially Karl Malone will be much more aggressive. The Pistons played a good game yesterday, but the Lakers played poorly as a team. I don't believe that will happen again tomorrow.

Unlike LakeShow I'm hoping like hell that I'm wrong though.

Joe Mama

i'm just hoping that karl comes out to play with his mangina again. it was great seeing suck.

 

[sunsfn]

I for one am getting a little tired of joe mama constantly knocking on Shawn Marion, and on two boards at that. He keeps hammering and It appears he is trying to get as many people as he can to agree with him....


Who cares how good of a defensive player Prince is!!! He is not a sun and we took Casey Jacobson, "live with it".


I have not kept track of how many players joe mama has said are better than Shawn Marion, but wish he would quit comparing. There are many players at sf in this league who are not in Shawn Marions league, and many teams that would love to have Shawn Marion on their team.

Shawn Marion is an all-star for cripes sakes, get real!

 

[Joe Mama]

i'm just hoping that karl comes out to play with his mangina again. it was great seeing suck.

LOL. This one had me rolling, especially given my hatred for Karl Malone.

I for one am getting a little tired of joe mama constantly knocking on Shawn Marion, and on two boards at that. He keeps hammering and It appears he is trying to get as many people as he can to agree with him....


Who cares how good of a defensive player Prince is!!! He is not a sun and we took Casey Jacobson, "live with it".


I have not kept track of how many players joe mama has said are better than Shawn Marion, but wish he would quit comparing. There are many players at sf in this league who are not in Shawn Marions league, and many teams that would love to have Shawn Marion on their team.

Shawn Marion is an all-star for cripes sakes, get real!

I'm not ripping on Shawn Marion. The source of these Shawn Marion arguments is always some trade proposal that I don't believe is realistic because it has a frugal franchise like Detroit accepting Marion's contract or a team like Orlando giving the Suns a superstar for him.

Like I said the other day I'm a big fan of Tayshaun Prince. And I didn't even say he was necessarily better than Shawn Marion all the way around. I said given the current contract statuses I would rather have Prince and so would Joe Dumars and the Detroit Pistons.

The only reason I even brought up Prince's defense being better than Shawn Marion's is that it was discussed the other day in another thread. Marion's value has come up frequently lately because of all of the trade rumors. Someone posts the rumor, I posed why I don't think it would happen, and then I and the defending my stance when I'm told how ignorant I am for undervaluing Shawn Marion.

Maybe you could refresh my memory. I have said that I would rather have Tracy McGrady, Paul Pierce, Richard Jefferson, and Kirilenko if money was not a factor. So I guess I said they are better are going to be better. Who else was there?

Here's an idea. If you don't like my posts try putting me on your "ignore list". It's not that difficult.


Joe Mama

 

[George O'Brien]

Prince is an extremely talented defender, but he has the advantage of playing on a team which does not double team all the time. Shawn was frequently guarding an area on the weak side and would have to run at the shooter. Opponents that move the ball well were able to take advantage of that, but it is not clear that it was all Shawn's fault.

None the less, I think Shawn needs to work on his footwork and concentrate more on keeping his man in front of him than on steals and blocks. Some of it may be physical, but I also blame the coaching staff that sounds like they think defense is just about effort without emphasizing technique.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Joe, dont forget that Prince has the best shot blocking front line in the NBA behind him.

You like to use that reasoning in saying Kobe's and Bowen's defense is overated, so use it both ways.

(I do think he has a knack for defense though, and should turn out to be a great player. However, I really think he benefits from Larry Brown's system, and much like Boozer, I am not sure how he would fair in the West)

 

[George O'Brien]

I'm sure Prince would be a good defender on any team. On the other hand, I think Marion contributes a lot to the Suns:

Tayshaun Prince
Detroit Pistons
Position: F
Height: 6-9 Weight: 215
College: Kentucky '02
Player file | Team stats

2003-04 Statistics
PPG 10.3
RPG 4.8
APG 2.3
SPG .77
BPG .84
FG% .467
FT% .766
3P% .363
MPG 32.9

Shawn Marion
Phoenix Suns
Position: F
Height: 6-7 Weight: 215
College: UNLV '00
Player file | Team stats

2003-04 Statistics
PPG 19.0
RPG 9.3
APG 2.7
SPG 2.11
BPG 1.32
FG% .440
FT% .851
3P% .340
MPG 40.7

Shawn's shooting percentage is way down from the previous two years, but he still manages to get 19 ppg and 9.3 rpg. Maybe Prince would get more rebounds on weaker rebounding team, but it is hard to figure why he only gets 10.3 ppg on a team that does not have many guys who can score.

 

[Joe Mama]

Joe, dont forget that Prince has the best shot blocking front line in the NBA behind him.

You like to use that reasoning in saying Kobe's and Bowen's defense is overated, so use it both ways.

(I do think he has a knack for defense though, and should turn out to be a great player. However, I really think he benefits from Larry Brown's system, and much like Boozer, I am not sure how he would fair in the West)

Graham, that's a very good point. I don't remember saying that their defense was "overrated", but I know I've said that they benefit from having Shaquille O'Neal and Tim Duncan behind them. I think they are both very good defenders. Shot blockers in the paint allow the perimeter defenders to play a more aggressive , physical, in-your-face, style of defense that is frustrating to the guys they are guarding. I also think it helps that those two have a reputation for their defense. It seems like they are allowed to play more physically than someone like Prince or even Shawn Marion. Bruce Bowen in particular gets away with a lot of grabbing and pushing.

However what I liked about Prince's defense on Bryant was his discipline. He did not leave the ground when Kobe pump faked. He stayed right with him. For the most part he stayed in front of Bryant. He had a hand in Kobe Bryant's face whenever he would shoot. This is what I think Shawn Marion needs to work on more than anything. I think he could be a very good defender, but he's got to play more disciplined defense. If he improves there and recovers his jump shot I'll feel whole lot better about his contract.

Joe Mama

 

[sunsfn]

joe,

You just do not get it...........!

You are constantly negative toward Marion!

This will be my last post on this subject because I tend to go with a positive attitude on the suns and their players, and negative posts are not to my liking. So write what you want to this, but I will not respond!

P.S. And now a word of wisdom from a poster and moderator.....geeeez!
-------------------------------------------------------------
((Here's an idea. If you don't like my posts try putting me on your "ignore list". It's not that difficult. joe mama))
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[Joe Mama]

joe,

You just do not get it...........!

You are constantly negative toward Marion!

This will be my last post on this subject because I tend to go with a positive attitude on the suns and their players, and negative posts are not to my liking. So write what you want to this, but I will not respond!

P.S. And now a word of wisdom from a poster and moderator.....geeeez!
-------------------------------------------------------------
((Here's an idea. If you don't like my posts try putting me on your "ignore list". It's not that difficult. joe mama))
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No, you are right. I'm sure there will be many, many trade rumors involving Shawn Marion this summer. I guess next time someone posts one of those rumors I'll just have to agree with everyone that it sounds great because I wouldn't want to question if it's a real possibility for the suns if it means hurting the feelings of Shawn Marion supporters on the message board. The next time someone posts that they would rather have Shawn Marion than Paul Pierce I won't respond because I may be picking on Marion a little too much.

I hope you don't think I'm overly negative about Jahidi White because I think the Phoenix Suns will have to include at least a draft pick to move him in the expansion draft.

BTW I do apologize for bringing up the point about Prince's defense in this thread. If I wanted to talk about it I should have done so in the thread where we were comparing him and Shawn Marion. I'm sorry.

Joe Mama