"The Four Horsemen" WR stats and projections

[Cards_Campos]

And the Rams got rid of Goff because of this. A coach or scheme can only do so much. You need a top level QB who can get you into the right plays and out of the wrong plays to really compete. You need a QB who can execute when the defense knows you are passing because it is a defined passing situation. You need a QB who can throw teams out of their defensive scheme, vertical or underneath. Red zone, third down, four minute offense, and two minute offense all are more about your QB than the person calling the play.

Tom Brady's greatest ability as a QB is to know exactly what type of game he needs to play in order for his team to in. He knows when he needs to throw it 40 times being the hero and he knows when he needs to throw it 25 and play a part.

Lol. Yes let’s criticize Kyler by comparing him to the greatest QB of all time and a dude who has won 7 Super Bowls. That would be like your wife telling you. Hey you are not as successful as Elon Musk or not as attractive as The Rock. Lol

 

[Chopper0080]

Lol. Yes let’s criticize Kyler by comparing him to the greatest QB of all time and a dude who has won 7 Super Bowls. That would be like your wife telling you. Hey you are not as successful as Elon Musk or not as attractive as The Rock. Lol

You can over-react to a comment regarding QB play in the NFL if you want I guess. Part of comparing Kyler to Brady is that they play in the same conference, Brady's team is the defending champs, and Kyler would need to beat Brady in order to get to the Super Bowl. Same with Rodgers. Same with Stafford. Russ is really good, but I don't believe the roster around him is so I don't believe Kyler would need to play perfect to beat Seattle.

So yeah...I tend to comment on the QBs Kyler would need to beat to get to a Super Bowl when having a convo about the Cardinals being a Super Bowl contender.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I should clarify a bit. I feel like Kliff has less impact on the offensive success of the team than Kyler which is why I left Kliff out. I feel the same way about most top level NFL QBs. Andy Reid is great, but Mahomes has more impact on their offensive success. Same with Bruce and Brady. Lafluer and Rodgers.

That said, Kliff will impact with situational coaching decisions and crap like the field goal would definitely sabotage our chances.

based on your history, I thought the above was pretty clear when you made your point. Kyler is special enough to will this team into the playoffs and even win a game or two on his own, but there's still one more level to go, to get to the HOF level consistently in the playoff, the perfect game in the biggest game of the year.

I don't think that's a knock. I think that's pretty high praise for a guy just starting his third season.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Agreed but I don't think they got rid of Goff because of getting into the right plays, Goff is smart, if he were a Patriot they'd call him "wicked Smaht", what he isn't is a guy who makes big plays. He's not weak armed but what Stafford does is go for the big play. he had 3 shots at Jackson yesterday the first 2 weren't there he missed short on one, but the 3rd one was perfect. I think Goff maybe takes 1 of those 3 shots he's just always been "afraid" to take those shots.

Stafford has a great arm always has but he also is willing to make tough throws and take the shots and that's what the Rams wanted and weren't getting from Goff.

With the Lions because they weren't good he had to take shots so you could get him in trouble and pick him. he got better he hasn't had more than 11 picks since 2016, but with the Rams the scheme is better and the overall talent is better(no Megatron but he's got talented Wr's) and suddenly he's sitting there with 9 TD's and 1 pick looking like an MVP.

I've always felt what Brady does best besides lead, is just get the ball to the open guy. he doesn't care who it is he won't play favorites he finds the mismatch and exploits it.

I don't about this. One of the problems that McVay had with Goff is that he struggled to figure out defenses and where he needed to go with the ball on any given play. Apparently when McVay's QB goes to the sideline they go over what he saw and Goff couldn't figure out how to read defenses on the fly.

There is a reason that McVay was constantly talking to Goff via the headset up until when he couldn't.

 

[Chopper0080]

based on your history, I thought the above was pretty clear when you made your point. Kyler is special enough to will this team into the playoffs and even win a game or two on his own, but there's still one more level to go, to get to the HOF level consistently in the playoff, the perfect game in the biggest game of the year.

I don't think that's a knock. I think that's pretty high praise for a guy just starting his third season.

High praise and exciting. I was probably one of the more vocal individuals when he was drafted mostly due to my feelings towards his inexperience in a number of areas and being a physical outlier. He has come a long way in a short time which is impressive. That said, it doesn't mean he is a finished product and there is another level for him to reach which I feel he has the physical skills to achieve but just don't know how quickly he will be able to get there.

 

[Chopper0080]

and to be fair, I feel the same way about Lamar. Lamar is a great QB, but he will have to get more consistent with his throwing in order to get them over the hump. Not a ton better as he is such a dynamic runner, but he just needs to be able to consistently hit easy throws.

 

[Cards_Campos]

You can over-react to a comment regarding QB play in the NFL if you want I guess. Part of comparing Kyler to Brady is that they play in the same conference, Brady's team is the defending champs, and Kyler would need to beat Brady in order to get to the Super Bowl. Same with Rodgers. Same with Stafford. Russ is really good, but I don't believe the roster around him is so I don't believe Kyler would need to play perfect to beat Seattle.

So yeah...I tend to comment on the QBs Kyler would need to beat to get to a Super Bowl when having a convo about the Cardinals being a Super Bowl contender.

He had 3 INTs in NFC title game last year. GB was on 8 yard line to tie game. Brady didn’t beat packers by himself. If Kyler throws for 300 yards and 2 TDs and runs for 1 TD in a playoff game. Even with a turnover or 2 he still could win. The defense is key. Kyler has proved with bad INTs in games he can still score 34
Points a game. If the defense gives up 30. We still win

 

[Russ Smith]

I don't about this. One of the problems that McVay had with Goff is that he struggled to figure out defenses and where he needed to go with the ball on any given play. Apparently when McVay's QB goes to the sideline they go over what he saw and Goff couldn't figure out how to read defenses on the fly.

There is a reason that McVay was constantly talking to Goff via the headset up until when he couldn't.

Hard to say but if you read all the "inside" stuff from ESPN etc it came down to Goff wasn't good enough he didn't make enough big plays and McVay wanted more big plays and less turnovers. Third year they got to the SB with him the problem was all the coaches that got hired from the Rams were the "buffer" between McVay and Goff and the less between them the more of an issue it became. Goff didn't respond to McVay's hyper ness and screaming the way he did to LaFleur and others, they were gone and McVay simply decided we made a mistake paying him big money he's not my guy.

ESPN has this long article on it that points out in 17 and 18 Goff had 10 more TD's and 1 less pick than Stafford but obviously Goff had better personnel and a better system. 19 and 20 after the SB as teams adjusted to the Rams and they were missing all their assistant coaches(remember they didn't replace them with a real OC that's just McVay now) Goff fell apart. I don't think anybody thinks he's not smart he just doesn't seem "tough" enough to handle McVay and McVay was pushing him to make more big plays and the result was more turnovers.

I never was a huge Goff fan but I think it came down to McVay didn't think he could win a SB with Goff without having elite talent around him and that's hard to keep due to the cap so he decided to mortgage the future to try and win with Stafford right now.

Stafford has faced so much adversity in Detroit I don't think there's anybody with the Rams who thinks he'll be afraid to take the shots. He hasn't played in tons of "big games" in his career but if he fails it won't be because he's afraid of the moment.

 

[SoonerLou]

based on your history, I thought the above was pretty clear when you made your point. Kyler is special enough to will this team into the playoffs and even win a game or two on his own, but there's still one more level to go, to get to the HOF level consistently in the playoff, the perfect game in the biggest game of the year.

I don't think that's a knock. I think that's pretty high praise for a guy just starting his third season.

To me the Rams game will tell us a lot. Yes Kyler has been jittery at times (Took till year 3 for Keim to figure out the interior is important so he's maybe picked up some bad habits) but the Titans/Vikings games showed he's taken his ceiling to another level imo.

Mahomes is all time great and people will tell you that early Mahomes missed wide open wrs and thrived off of playmaking more than in structure. Scrambled when he didnt need to, etc. etc. Now Kyler isnt to early Mahomes level yet, but for once I dont think he's far off.

The Rams game will either be proof that Kyler is ready for the next level or not. Cause outside the Rams I dont really fear the Packers or even the Bucs (secondary is getting decimated).

Im not asking for a win, but a strong performance by Kyler against that team in that building will have lots of people starting to believe.

If he struggles? Well just enjoy the season for what it is cause we're not a real contender yet. Time will tell.

 

[SoonerLou]

He had 3 INTs in NFC title game last year. GB was on 8 yard line to tie game. Brady didn’t beat packers by himself. If Kyler throws for 300 yards and 2 TDs and runs for 1 TD in a playoff game. Even with a turnover or 2 he still could win. The defense is key. Kyler has proved with bad INTs in games he can still score 34
Points a game. If the defense gives up 30. We still win

I feel that way about about Green Bay (if we're at home) and maybe Tampa if their secondary issues continue, but we need Kyler to show out on Sunday. That game will go a long way.

 

[Cheesebeef]

To me the Rams game will tell us a lot. Yes Kyler has been jittery at times (Took till year 3 for Keim to figure out the interior is important so he's maybe picked up some bad habits) but the Titans/Vikings games showed he's taken his ceiling to another level imo.

Mahomes is all time great and people will tell you that early Mahomes missed wide open wrs and thrived off of playmaking more than in structure. Scrambled when he didnt need to, etc. etc. Now Kyler isnt to early Mahomes level yet, but for once I dont think he's far off.

The Rams game will either be proof that Kyler is ready for the next level or not. Cause outside the Rams I dont really fear the Packers or even the Bucs (secondary is getting decimated).

Im not asking for a win, but a strong performance by Kyler against that team in that building will have lots of people starting to believe.

If he struggles? Well just enjoy the season for what it is cause we're not a real contender yet. Time will tell.

Got no quibble with any of the above.

Sunday is a massive litmus test for wear Kyler and the Cards overall are as a team.

 

[SoonerLou]

Lets get back to topic

What wr outside of Hopkins/Kirk do you think needs to be involved more? AJ or Rondale?

I also think this is a contract game for Kirk. Show he can take it to this physical secondary and Keim might want to get a deal done early.

 

[Jetstream Green]

Agreed but I don't think they got rid of Goff because of getting into the right plays, Goff is smart, if he were a Patriot they'd call him "wicked Smaht", what he isn't is a guy who makes big plays. He's not weak armed but what Stafford does is go for the big play. he had 3 shots at Jackson yesterday the first 2 weren't there he missed short on one, but the 3rd one was perfect. I think Goff maybe takes 1 of those 3 shots he's just always been "afraid" to take those shots.

Stafford has a great arm always has but he also is willing to make tough throws and take the shots and that's what the Rams wanted and weren't getting from Goff.

With the Lions because they weren't good he had to take shots so you could get him in trouble and pick him. he got better he hasn't had more than 11 picks since 2016, but with the Rams the scheme is better and the overall talent is better(no Megatron but he's got talented Wr's) and suddenly he's sitting there with 9 TD's and 1 pick looking like an MVP.

I've always felt what Brady does best besides lead, is just get the ball to the open guy. he doesn't care who it is he won't play favorites he finds the mismatch and exploits it.

Goff is not smart

 

[BritCard]

A lot of words here on Kyler. Too many to read now. But I think this sums him up.

He has been 95% fantastic. That's about as good as it gets for most QBs.

The main concern is that all his INTs have been bad. I don't mind QBs being intercepted trying difficult throws. His 3 (discounting the face mask) have been rookie level INTs. Which is surprising because the rest of his play is clearly up a level this year.

 

[Russ Smith]

Goff is not smart

He's very book smart. He just IMO doesn't have the mental toughness for NFL football. Like the end of the 49ers game when he threw the ball away instead of taking a shot. I don't think that was him being stupid I think it's him being risk averse.

As McVay took over the offense completely when all the assistants left he started demanding less turnovers from Goff, and the result was Goff became risk averse.

Someone mentioned it with Kyler today, we're asking him to go downfield more because we have more weapons, as a result he's probably going to throw more picks, it's a function of taking more risk. McVay was very demanding and Goff couldn't deal with it and it caused him to regress as a QB. I don't think it's smart or not smart I think it's he doesn't take criticism well.

 

[Chopper0080]

Lets get back to topic

What wr outside of Hopkins/Kirk do you think needs to be involved more? AJ or Rondale?

I also think this is a contract game for Kirk. Show he can take it to this physical secondary and Keim might want to get a deal done early.

Mike Gesicki. (just trying to derail it more)

I think the current receiving mix is ok with how we run our personnel. A #2 TE or having two RBs on the field getting snaps is going to cut into Moore's reps because Kirk plays a similar role and they want him on the field. I am ok with them picking and choosing how they use him. Tyreek only got 83 targets his rookie year. AJ Green plays outside so no one is really cutting into his role. The team likes using a TE so Maxx's role seems intact as well.

 

[BritCard]

Mike Gesicki. (just trying to derail it more)

I think the current receiving mix is ok with how we run our personnel. A #2 TE or having two RBs on the field getting snaps is going to cut into Moore's reps because Kirk plays a similar role and they want him on the field. I am ok with them picking and choosing how they use him. Tyreek only got 83 targets his rookie year. AJ Green plays outside so no one is really cutting into his role. The team likes using a TE so Maxx's role seems intact as well.

To be honest, now that we have the quality skill players to play it I think Kliff needs to revert more to playing 4 wides. Whether that be with a RB and no TE or TE in empty.

The problem with playing running 10 personnel previously was we simply didn't have qood receivers. We were running it with guys like Byrd, Cooper, Johnson etc

Our current WR corp is the teams strength and he should use it more. Having Kirk play only 57% of snaps and Moore only 33% is a tragic waste of talent.

Every time Darrell Daniels or Harris is on the field for Kirk or Moore it makes us worse.

In fact, I think the only way to beat a team like the Rams is to out gun them. We aren't going to beat McVay trying to play run out of 2 TE sets or with bubble screens to Edmonds. The only way we beat them is if we say **** it and throw the kitchen sink at them.

 

[BullheadCardFan]

High praise and exciting. I was probably one of the more vocal individuals when he was drafted mostly due to my feelings towards his inexperience in a number of areas and being a physical outlier. He has come a long way in a short time which is impressive. That said, it doesn't mean he is a finished product and there is another level for him to reach which I feel he has the physical skills to achieve but just don't know how quickly he will be able to get there.

+1

I agree that there is much more for him to learn to up his game even further

 

[Chopper0080]

To be honest, now that we have the quality skill players to play it I think Kliff needs to revert more to playing 4 wides. Whether that be with a RB and no TE or TE in empty.

The problem with playing running 10 personnel previously was we simply didn't have qood receivers. We were running it with guys like Byrd, Cooper, Johnson etc

Our current WR corp is the teams strength and he should use it more. Having Kirk play only 57% of snaps and Moore only 33% is a tragic waste of talent.

Every time Darrell Daniels or Harris is on the field for Kirk or Moore it makes us worse.

In fact, I think the only way to beat a team like the Rams is to out gun them. We aren't going to beat McVay trying to play run out of 2 TE sets or with bubble screens to Edmonds. The only way we beat them is if we say **** it and throw the kitchen sink at them.

Where this is a struggle is that we do not have a big slot player to block out of 10 personnel. I think we can increase our usage of 10 personnel but I just don't believe we are two dimensional in it at this point to use it significantly more.

 

[BritCard]

Where this is a struggle is that we do not have a big slot player to block out of 10 personnel. I think we can increase our usage of 10 personnel but I just don't believe we are two dimensional in it at this point to use it significantly more.

We should move Kyler around more. Designed bootlegs etc

I'm not saying we should use it a lot, just more of it. Rather than 5-6 snaps a game maybe 10-12.

 

[Russ Smith]

To be honest, now that we have the quality skill players to play it I think Kliff needs to revert more to playing 4 wides. Whether that be with a RB and no TE or TE in empty.

The problem with playing running 10 personnel previously was we simply didn't have qood receivers. We were running it with guys like Byrd, Cooper, Johnson etc

Our current WR corp is the teams strength and he should use it more. Having Kirk play only 57% of snaps and Moore only 33% is a tragic waste of talent.

Every time Darrell Daniels or Harris is on the field for Kirk or Moore it makes us worse.

In fact, I think the only way to beat a team like the Rams is to out gun them. We aren't going to beat McVay trying to play run out of 2 TE sets or with bubble screens to Edmonds. The only way we beat them is if we say **** it and throw the kitchen sink at them.

I think the issue is if they play 2 high safeties with 7 in the box you basically have to make them pay for that by running. We CAN run from 4 WR sets if we still have Edmonds or Conner in the backfield, or run Kyler, but it's obviously easier to run with 2 TE sets. So I expect we'll see both. What I want to see is if they have 7 in the box can we just line up and run the ball, you're going to have to because I just don't think Kyler is at a point yet where he can do what Brady did, 4 quarters 55 passes without getting impatient and frustrated and taking too much risk and getting picked. Brady is the GOAT, Kyler is a great young talent but he's not patient enough to just air it out against that defense IMO.

We have to throw absolutely and often, but I think we have to run the ball more than Tampa did or we will have issues.

 

[BritCard]

I think the issue is if they play 2 high safeties with 7 in the box you basically have to make them pay for that by running. We CAN run from 4 WR sets if we still have Edmonds or Conner in the backfield, or run Kyler, but it's obviously easier to run with 2 TE sets. So I expect we'll see both. What I want to see is if they have 7 in the box can we just line up and run the ball, you're going to have to because I just don't think Kyler is at a point yet where he can do what Brady did, 4 quarters 55 passes without getting impatient and frustrated and taking too much risk and getting picked. Brady is the GOAT, Kyler is a great young talent but he's not patient enough to just air it out against that defense IMO.

We have to throw absolutely and often, but I think we have to run the ball more than Tampa did or we will have issues.

Personally I think our run game was at it's best in 2019 when we ran against lighter boxes out of 10 personnel.

 

[Russ Smith]

Personally I think our run game was at it's best in 2019 when we ran against lighter boxes out of 10 personnel.

I can't find splits that shows how many Wr's were in. I do see that in 9 carries with us under C Chase is averaging over 5 YPC this year.

I'm not saying I want to run 30 times or anything I don't think we can win that way I do think in this game we HAVE to punish them for playing light in the box to protect against passes. I think that includes Kyler too I think he'll have to run 8-10 times in this game.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

We should move Kyler around more. Designed bootlegs etc

I'm not saying we should use it a lot, just more of it. Rather than 5-6 snaps a game maybe 10-12.

I remain stunned that we don’t have seemingly any of this designed.

 

[Chopper0080]

We should move Kyler around more. Designed bootlegs etc

I'm not saying we should use it a lot, just more of it. Rather than 5-6 snaps a game maybe 10-12.

I disagree a bit with this. Teams rush their ends at Kyler to keep him in the pocket. a bootleg or rollout rolls him right into that containment rush.

You can make an argument for a playaction boot but that is something done from under C which we don't do enough to look normal.