The important's of THIS draft...

[Goldfield]

I think we can all agree that this team, as young as it is, is not to far from being really good!

Thats why I think the years draft, as deep as it was and how we walked away with two major needs, along with the two guys they really wanted badly. Could end up being a very very big deal for our future!


The Suns currently have their 1-4 spots rock solid with young talented players, with Steph/Joe/Shawn/ & Amare, the future looks very bright. They needed help on the bench real bad, but with the two max contracts of Penny and Googs eating up valuable cap space, the Suns have very little options via Free Agentcy.

The only way the Suns can even think about adding depth and talent to further improve this team is through the draft.

Amazingly! This draft is one of the deepest drafts in history!

What other draft can you think of be very excited about a #17, and a #28 draft pick?

If those two players can contribute in year one, the Suns IMO will be the most improved team yet again. With alittle help off the bench, and to important players(Steph/Shawn) not drained from too many min's. We will be a team that was allready pretty good, becoming alot better!

 

[Goldfield]

bump...

Jeez, no respect I tell you! (Rodney Dangerfield)

 

[arthurracoon]

Exactly, unfortunately everyone improved and being in the west is going to be murder.

 

[Goldfield]

I just feel, if THIS draft wasnt so deep we would of been hurt the most. With no other options to improve this was vital for our continual growth as a team. (What ever that means)

 

[Joe Mama]

Zarko Cabarkapa was not at the top of my list, but I think I've rationalized enough to where I like this draft. Now we just need to see how they do in the summer league. I'm also hoping Jacobsen and maybe even JJ can find their long-range shooting.

Joe Mama

 

[SirStefan32]

Three point shooting and the lack of a center/ PF who can make open jumpers.

I like Zarko, but he will not contribute significantly for a couple of years. I think the Suns have got to sign a decent Center who can make open jumpers. Power forward would be OK too, Amare can shift to 5.

As far as three point shooting goes, as Joe said, JJ and CJ have got to find their shooting. Barbosa is a wild card. If he is as good a shooter as some people claim, he will be a huge help to Marbury and Stoudemire.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by SirStefan32

I like Zarko, but he will not contribute significantly for a couple of years. I think the Suns have got to sign a decent Center who can make open jumpers. Power forward would be OK too, Amare can shift to 5.

Fine. That's noted. And you're correct, we need a decent center who can hit jumpers.

The problem (not necessarily from you) with people that criticize our first draft choice is that there was no way we were going to get a "decent Center" with the #17 pick. That kind of expectation is just unrealistic. We had a need; we addressed it. End of story.

Yes we need a decent center, but the #17 pick was not the way to get it. In fact, trading the #17 pick probably wouldn't have gotten us a decent center either.

Unfortunately, with a lot of people, Zarko is going to get a lot of criticism just from the fact that a lot of fans think that he shouldn't be a Phoenix Sun because we need a powerful 5 man that can shoot more. Which, of course, is fantasy in the long run, because it just wasn't possible to get one at the #17 pick.

 

[SirStefan32]

Chap,

Don't get me wrong buddy, I love our #17 pick. I am a big Zarko fan. I've seen him play live when he was 16, and I think he will be a very good role player.

Three needs that Phoenix had were:

1. Decent center/ PF who can hit wide open J's.

2. Long/ tall forward to back up Marion and Stoudemire.

3. Back up point guard who can shoot and defend.

The Suns did a terrific job of taking care of two of those needs.
Now I am just saying that in order to get out of the first round, they'll need a decent Center. Tsakalidis, Voskhul and Williams will not get it done in the West (or anywhere for that matter.)

Stefan

 

[fordronken]

The Suns did a terrific job of taking care of two of those needs.
Now I am just saying that in order to get out of the first round, they'll need a decent Center. Tsakalidis, Voskhul and Williams will not get it done in the West (or anywhere for that matter.)

You don't think the Suns could get out of the first round in the East?

 

[jbeecham]

The Suns almost got out of the 1st rd this past season (and maybe with better officiating they would have) and that was with a banged up Marbury and not playing Big Jake at all. Plus it was Amare's rookie season and we were playing the team with the best record in the league.

I think if we can avoid major injuries this year then we can win over 50 games and we should have an easier 1st rd matchup and can advance at least to the 2nd rd. Hopefully we won't face the Lakers, Mavs or Kings in the 1st rd.

 

[Errntknght]

Chap wrote, "The problem (not necessarily from you) with people that criticize our first draft choice is that there was no way we were going to get a "decent Center" with the #17 pick. That kind of expectation is just unrealistic. We had a need; we addressed it. End of story."

It's easy to win arguments when you get to set up the straw horse your argument is capable of knocking down.

In my criticizing the Zarko pick and the pick of CJ last year what I said was that there were decent prospects among the big men remaining on board. From a need point of view CJ was a worse choice because we needed everything more than another SG - and it sure didn't fit the 'best player available' category either. Last year there were Gadzuric and Boozer (not to mention Prince who several people were touting) still available. This year there were West, Cook and Lampe who were fairly well regarded. In particular, I didn't like the choice of Zarko because he is considered a poor defender even among Europeans - and his age and physique argue that isn't likely to be fixed. His offense needs to be better than his hype for him to worth having on the floor. His 3pt shooting - 9/42 in 2 years of Euroleague play and maybe 19/52 in some other league (someone put up that stat) for a grand total of 28/94 = 29.8 %, - didn't send chills up my spine either.

You'll notice I'm not so down on Barbosa - primarily because defense is supposed to be one of his strong points. Also he fits the team well being fast and a penetrator, going by the reports on him. Of course, West and Cook were off the board by then, too.

Hopefully, Zarko is the second coming of Nowitski and I'll then sing BC's praises but I'm not tuning up my vocal cords just yet.

 

[Joe Mama]

Originally posted by Errntknght

In my criticizing the Zarko pick and the pick of CJ last year what I said was that there were decent prospects among the big men remaining on board. From a need point of view CJ was a worse choice because we needed everything more than another SG - and it sure didn't fit the 'best player available' category either. Last year there were Gadzuric and Boozer (not to mention Prince who several people were touting) still available.

I did not want the Phoenix Suns to take Casey Jacobsen, but I think you are wrong regarding what the Phoenix Suns needed last year. They needed a good shooter as much or more than anything else. CJ was said to be the best shooter in last year's draft. Unfortunately he did not to well during the season.

This year there were West, Cook and Lampe who were fairly well regarded. In particular, I didn't like the choice of Zarko because he is considered a poor defender even among Europeans - and his age and physique argue that isn't likely to be fixed. His offense needs to be better than his hype for him to worth having on the floor. His 3pt shooting - 9/42 in 2 years of Euroleague play and maybe 19/52 in some other league (someone put up that stat) for a grand total of 28/94 = 29.8 %, - didn't send chills up my spine either.

First off, I think it's been well-established that drafting Lampe was not really an option. If the Suns had drafted him it would have been a long time before he actually played in the NBA. Tim Shea also said that he needs at least two more years in Europe before he is ready for the NBA.

BTW, in his very limited European statistics Lampe was 1-5 from three-point land. It's not like he had all these great three-point shooting statistics himself. Supposedly he shot well in workouts, but so did Zarko. And Zarko appears to be about twice as athletic as Lampe. I guess I can understand feeling that they should have taken someone like David West or Brian Cook, but not Lampe.

The way I figure it the Phoenix Suns have a much better idea of what Zarko can do than anybody on this message board does. Last year many of us had seen Casey Jacobsen play a bunch of times in college. We had a pretty good idea of his game and what he could do. That made it easier to criticize them for taking him.

Joe Mama

 

[SirStefan32]

Originally posted by fordronken
You don't think the Suns could get out of the first round in the East?

Yes I do. Marbury/ Marion/ Stoudemire/ Hardaway would get the Suns to the 2nd round, perhaps even further.

I didn't express myself properly. I was merely saying that even Eastern Conference centers can destroy Phoenix Suns centers.

I am a huge Voskhul fan, and I like Tsakalidis too, but face it- they are terrible. Voskhul is a nice Pollard- type player off the bench, but he can't hit outside shots.

 

[elindholm]

In my criticizing the Zarko pick and the pick of CJ last year what I said was that there were decent prospects among the big men remaining on board.... Last year there were Gadzuric and Boozer (not to mention Prince who several people were touting) still available. This year there were West, Cook and Lampe who were fairly well regarded.

Come on, Errntknght, you're changing the rules in the middle of the game. What do you mean by "big man"? Evidently you don't mean someone who is merely tall, because Cabarkapa fits that qualification. So you must mean someone who could be an inside force -- presumably at center, because the Suns already have an inside force at power forward.

Not one of those players you mentioned could be an inside force in the West, or at least certainly not at center. Gadzuric started strong but all but disappeared in the second half of the season, even while playing in the East. Boozer and West are only 6' 9". Cook is more of a finesse player, and Lampe certainly wasn't going to compete down low.

Whether Cabarkapa turns out to be effective is an open question. But are you really criticizing the Suns for realizing that Gadzuric, Boozer, and so on would not have fit their needs? In your opinion, should they draft an inside "prospect" that they're almost certain won't work out, over a perimeter player who, while not addressing the team's greatest need, has a better chance of being able to contribute?

I see no honor in drafting a stiff just so you can say you tried. Remember way back when, when everyone was angry that the Suns had drafted Larry Nance when Alton Lister was still on the board?

 

[Errntknght]

Eric wrote, "Come on, Errntknght, you're changing the rules in the middle of the game. What do you mean by "big man"? Evidently you don't mean someone who is merely tall, because Cabarkapa fits that qualification. So you must mean someone who could be an inside force -- presumably at center, because the Suns already have an inside force at power forward."

I'm not changing my argument at all. Sure a center would be best but we need more strength down in the paint whether it comes from C, PF or even SF. Take the lineup everyone seems to think is wonderful to imagine - Amare, Zazko and Marion. That makes Zarko the C since you say Amare is the PF. Then take out Zarko and put in Boozer and it gets a lot stronger down low even though it lost 2-3 inches in height. There are also times that Amare is not on the floor or he could even get injured, heaven forbid.

"Whether Cabarkapa turns out to be effective is an open question. But are you really criticizing the Suns for realizing that Gadzuric, Boozer, and so on would not have fit their needs?"

I can't for the life of me see that Gadzuric and Boozer don't fit our needs better than CJ does. It looked like that to me last year merely from reading what was written about them and it looks like that to me now. Others may have felt that CJ was worth a gamble because our need for an outside shooter was so overwhelming but I thought that our inside game was a far more pressing issue so we should gamble on a big man... inside player... excuse me - the draft being far richer in big men than normal. (Probably, in a more typical draft I'd have complained they took CJ instead of a SF.)

"In your opinion, should they draft an inside "prospect" that they're almost certain won't work out, over a perimeter player who, while not addressing the team's greatest need, has a better chance of being able to contribute?"

Now you are really getting into my domain - risk/benefit analysis. Of course one has to 'quantify' the extent of need and the degree of risk to make a reasonable decision so the way you ask the question is meaningless. I seem to view the need of an inside player more than most and I see the risk Zarko poses as higher because he's reportedly weak defensively, which subject everyone avoids when talking about him. The stats indicate quite a risk on his long range shooting as well. Am I impressed because the guys that picked CJ and Langhi as our floor spreaders say they think he can do it - no. Are we hurting at SF? Not as much as at PF/C. From what I've read there seems to be a number of candidates at those positions who are about as likely to work out as Zarko, so I'd have taken one.

I don't recall anyone being upset about choosing Nance over Lister but I do remember years of the Suns being done in by being soft inside and I see the Suns moving that way by using all of their last three draft picks to take perimeter players when there were big men candidates surprisingly available.

 

[elindholm]

Take the lineup everyone seems to think is wonderful to imagine - Amare, Zazko and Marion.

I don't think that lineup is wonderful to imagine. It is my hope -- vain though it may be -- that Cabarkapa, even if he is everything he's supposed to be, will play backup minutes at the two forward spots, and that Tsakalidis, Voskuhl, and ? will be the centers.

Granted, this is unrealistic, given what we know of the Suns' coaching staff. But would it be any less unrealistic if Gadzuric were on the roster instead of Jacobsen? I say no.

Then take out Zarko and put in Boozer and it gets a lot stronger down low

It isn't fair to compare Boozer with Cabarkapa, because Boozer was not on the board when the Suns drafted Cabarkapa last month.

Remember that, when the Suns took Jacobsen, they already had four power forwards on the projected roster -- in decreasing order of anticipated contribution, they were Gugliotta, Outlaw, Stoudemire, and Ford. What would have been the point in taking a fifth one?

I still think you're switching arguments midstream. True, a front court of Stoudemire/Boozer/Marion is better inside than a lineup of Cabarkapa/Stoudemire/Marion -- but a lineup of Tsakalidis/Stoudemire/Marion is best of all (at least in the West).

The problem of who gets drafted may overlap with the small-ball obsession, but it isn't quite the same problem. The Suns are committed to preferring small ball over a lineup featuring an ineffective center. Given that, there is no point in drafting centers who are destined to be ineffective.

If Cabarkapa turns out to be a good shooter -- which I agree is questionable -- then a lineup of Cabarkapa/Stoudemire/Marion really would be preferable to one of Stoudemire/Boozer/Marion, because the extra spacing provided by Cabarkapa will give everyone else more room to operate.

Others may have felt that CJ was worth a gamble because our need for an outside shooter was so overwhelming

I acknowledge that I am in that camp. The Suns actually did fairly well last season in terms of points in the paint, and they even started getting to the line once in a while once Stoudemire got going. But their inability to hit the broad side of a barn from greater than 18 feet really hurt them. Jacobsen hasn't worked out, but I do feel he was worth the gamble, even though I didn't really like the pick. (I don't remember who I wanted instead.)

I see the risk Zarko poses as higher because he's reportedly weak defensively, which subject everyone avoids when talking about him.

Choose your poison. Cook's work ethic was questioned, West is too small, and Lampe probably wouldn't have been able to play. Cabarkapa may turn out to be a poor defender, but he is at least (1) hungry, (2) tall, and (3) available. If you want a perfect player, you need a better draft pick than #17.

Am I impressed because the guys that picked CJ and Langhi as our floor spreaders say they think he can do it - no.

Again, the question is, compared to what? Were there better shooters than Jacobsen available at #22 in last year's draft? Better minimum-wage free agents than Langhi?

It's very easy to find fault with the players that a team picks up when it is scavenging. The whole reason that such players are available to such teams is that their faults are relatively evident.

I guess we're at an "agree to disagree" impasse. I'd rather see the Suns pick up perimeter players who might be able to help them than inside prospects who won't ever get off the bench.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

I don't know why anyone is worried about Zarko.

I read after the draft that the Suns have been scouting him for two years. They have wanted to draft him since they saw him play two years ago.

Just judging on how good our scouting department has been, I think he will be fine.

As to who plays center, I am sure that it will be Amare. He played a lot of center for us last year when Outlaw was in as the PF. Basically I see Zarko getting Langhi's and part of Outlaw's minutes.

I can't see how this is a bad thing. If he just adds a little offense to the bench then the pick is a success. We need good roleplayers now to put around our superstars.

As to Jacobson vrs. the big men of last year...I actually would rather have Prince that Jacobson if I had my choice. I think that Boozer's upside is very limited where as Prince could develop into a real talent.

 

[scotsman13]

if we had shaq or someother good center they would play at the center spot for most of the mins but we dont have them so we do what we can. that means if big jake has to play down low and mess everything up for amare that big jake wont be getting most of the mins. if we can get someone that can pull the low post centers away from the post then they will get most of the mins. the whole idea isnt who gets mins, it is who wins the game. so jake or zarko or little jake all the matters is winning.

 

[Chaplin]

A lot of this is complaining for complaining's sake. Sure, hindsight is 20/20 and Boozer might have been a better pick last year, but come on. At the time of the draft, we had 2 centers, and Scott Williams had all but decided to play for Phoenix before. Plus, Boozer came out of a program that doesn't produce very good NBA players--plus he is undersized. With those things against him, it's no wonder we (and many other teams) passed on him. And remember, last year we had a healthy Big Jake who really came on at the end of the season--at the time, we all thought our center problem, while not great, was improving--and a #24 pick wouldn't have had a bit of difference on that rotation--we needed a shooter, not a 3rd center, who in small ball would get even less time than a NORMAL 3rd center.

Errntknight, you are putting words into people's mouths that just isn't true. I don't know of ANYONE that has said that a Zarko/Amare/Marion frontline is what we all want. We've said it's a possibility, but I haven't seen anyone that has been excited about Zarko as a Center. I know I'm not.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Originally posted by Chaplin .

Errntknight, you are putting words into people's mouths that just isn't true. I don't know of ANYONE that has said that a Zarko/Amare/Marion frontline is what we all want. We've said it's a possibility, but I haven't seen anyone that has been excited about Zarko as a Center. I know I'm not. [/B]

Mea Culpa on that one. While I did not say that I am excited about that front line, I did say that Suns mgmt is. I heard FJ say it on draft day in two different interviews. I heard Tim Shea say it, and I hear Ivaroni say it.

We are going to see it in action often. I guarantee it. I will NOT guarantee how well it will work.

 

[hcsilla]

Couple of points:

1. Everybody on this board thought last summer that Tsakalidis will be Suns' starting C this season and he will get 30 min. game.
We were wrong. But Frank Johnson HAD to know that Suns do need someone at C.

2.I know that I repeat myself but one more time:

I would have taken both Prince and Gadzuric over Jacobsen.
Prince because he is more versatile and a better defender and Gadzuric because he is the more athletic version of Voskuhl so I thought that he would be a better backup than Voskuhl.

I still think that Suns made a mistake with picking of Jacobsen.
Prince proved to be a better defender, post-up player and not a worse shooter than Jacobsen.

If Suns knew that they won't use Tsakalidis then Gadzuric would have been a perfect fit. He loves the run and plays good D.

3. I don't think that Boozer would have been a logical pick. 1st off all Boozer is overrated, IMO.He was the starting PF of the worst team in NBA. His stats are a bit misleading.
Furthermore Suns had 3 PF's on their roster. #9 pick, a nearly max. player and a 6 mil./year F.It's hard to blame them why didn't they pick Boozer.

4. Hardaway stated several times that Suns picked up Jacobsen because they doubted that he (Penny) will be healthy for the entire season. If that's the case then this partially explains choosing of Jacobsen.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by hcsilla
Couple of points:

1. Everybody on this board thought last summer that Tsakalidis will be Suns' starting C this season and he will get 30 min. game.
We were wrong. But Frank Johnson HAD to know that Suns do need someone at C.

2.I know that I repeat myself but one more time:

I would have taken both Prince and Gadzuric over Jacobsen.
Prince because he is more versatile and a better defender and Gadzuric because he is the more athletic version of Voskuhl so I thought that he would be a better backup than Voskuhl.

I still think that Suns made a mistake with picking of Jacobsen.
Prince proved to be a better defender, post-up player and not a worse shooter than Jacobsen.

If Suns knew that they won't use Tsakalidis then Gadzuric would have been a perfect fit. He loves the run and plays good D.

3. I don't think that Boozer would have been a logical pick. 1st off all Boozer is overrated, IMO.He was the starting PF of the worst team in NBA. His stats are a bit misleading.
Furthermore Suns had 3 PF's on their roster. #9 pick, a nearly max. player and a 6 mil./year F.It's hard to blame them why didn't they pick Boozer.

4. Hardaway stated several times that Suns picked up Jacobsen because they doubted that he (Penny) will be healthy for the entire season. If that's the case then this partially explains choosing of Jacobsen.

I don't know how much you watch Pac-10 and UCLA basketball games, but you apparently don't know very much about Gadzuric. He's a nice player until he starts to think about playing basketball. The guy is a head case, and believe me, his disappearing act he did in the 2nd half of last year will not be his last--if he ever returns to his 1st half self in the first place.

 

[cly2tw]

Originally posted by hcsilla
1. Everybody on this board thought last summer that Tsakalidis will be Suns' starting C this season and he will get 30 min. game.
We were wrong. But Frank Johnson HAD to know that Suns do need someone at C.

I'd like to repeat my 'conspiracy' theory. I think one important reason JAKE didn't play late last season was that he is due for a contract extension this summer and the Suns didn't want to get into a Booth/James etc. dilemma with him! Due to the injury, JAKE wasn't in shape. So, had he produced consistently like in that last Laker game with sufficient minutes, it would have driven his contract demand high, while the likelihood of his sustaining some kind of injury for that production would have been high too, not to mention the possibility of this 20 game performance being just a fluke. Besides, the Suns were winning with the small ball to some extent. It's really logical for the management to not play him in that situation, and FJ is Colangellos' puppet anyway.

I think JAKE's "ineffectiveness" was mainly due to the severe health problem that was surgically corrected mid last season. I still believe in him, and I think the Colangellos also do and will give him a mid to long term extension with lots of incentives. If he stays healthy, I see at least 25 min for him, now that a possible Booth/James trap is out of the way.

 

[hcsilla]

cly2tw, that's highly unlikely, IMO.

I have never heard that a team didn't give PT for a good player because they wanted to reduce his demands.

 

[cly2tw]

Originally posted by hcsilla
cly2tw, that's highly unlikely, IMO.

I have never heard that a team didn't give PT for a good player because they wanted to reduce his demands.

Well, that was what McDyce was complaining about against Ainge and the Suns back then. I don't buy Dyce's being a bad clutch player ******** as a rationalization for playing him less than 30 min a game. For a potential franchise player, they should have him get experience in exactly those clutch situations, right? What's funny was, if the Suns had known the new CBA, they would've have done that. They were afraid to give McDyce J.Howard-like contract and wanted to have cap left to sign Pippen. Hey, if I were the management, I'd have done the same thing. As some poster said here somewhere, it's all about risk management.