The lost unit...Offense

[Chopper0080]

This game really was a comedy of errors across our entire offense.

Kolb needs to get this figured out, because he keeps missing big splash plays and today was no exception. He missed Fitz wide open, Roberts wide open and Housler wide open. All near the end zone and possible scoring opportunities WITH good protection. He missed them, the Cardinals stayed behind in the game and forced them to throw the ball more than anyone would have liked.

Then our offensive line reared it's ugly head. Understand one thing, Bobbie Massie is our best starting offensive lineman. Our tackles will give up edge pressure, and that happens. What really hurts the Cardinals is their inability to bring in players to chip on these ends because the interior of the line is not strong enough to handle DTs one on one, and are not athletic enough to slide off double teams to late rushing LBs. The more guys we keep in the more teams will send their LBs late because they know Colledge and Snyder aren't athletic enough to disengage, slide and pick up the rusher. This is why we struggle with max protect. Remember, offensive lines are like cars. Everyone sees and judges the outside of it, but if the engine inside doesn't work, it won't drive no matter how pretty it looks. Our offensive line is ugly outside and broke down inside.

Finally, our play calling was awful this game. I am not normally a guy who blames play calling because players either execute the plays or they don't. But, today I will make an exception. You have to attempt more than 3 screens and 3 draws the entire game if you are getting killed by the outside rush. It doesn't matter if they work or not, the point is they slow down the rush. The Cardinals had no answers for the same issues they dealt with last week, today. We need a legitimate offensive coordinator as ours has seemed very much over his head the past two weeks.

 

[kerouac9]

Kevin Kolb enables all of Whis and Miller's worst habits. Kolb had like 30 attempts before Williams got injured and the Cards were still within 7. What a disaster.

Run the ball. Kolb isn't that good. He loses the strike zone for LONG periods of time.

 

[Chopper0080]

Kevin Kolb enables all of Whis and Miller's worst habits. Kolb had like 30 attempts before Williams got injured and the Cards were still within 7. What a disaster.

Run the ball. Kolb isn't that good. He loses the strike zone for LONG periods of time.

I just don't see him as a long term solution. Too limited in too many areas. You CAN win with him as long as you have a strong team around him, but I think he will always struggle to be anything more than average.

I'm still drafting a QB in round 1. Hopefully Tyler Wilson falls.

 

[kerouac9]

I just don't see him as a long term solution. Too limited in too many areas. You CAN win with him as long as you have a strong team around him, but I think he will always struggle to be anything more than average.

I'm still drafting a QB in round 1. Hopefully Tyler Wilson falls.

It's a long season. I don't think that he's earned his $9 million salary for 2013. I'd rather release him than pay him that and carry a $13 million or so cap charge for him into next year.

If Kolb made $5-6 million a year you can live with how limited he is. But you can't live with that performance making Franchise QB money.

What is it that Kevin Kolb does well, again?

 

[Chopper0080]

It's a long season. I don't think that he's earned his $9 million salary for 2013. I'd rather release him than pay him that and carry a $13 million or so cap charge for him into next year.

If Kolb made $5-6 million a year you can live with how limited he is. But you can't live with that performance making Franchise QB money.

What is it that Kevin Kolb does well, again?

I'm not sure I have the strength to do this right now. Kolb has a workable skill set. He has shown he can manage game situations and has shown he can limit his turnover production to allow the team to stay in games. He has at times been able move outside the pocket to create plays down the field. When in rhythm, Kolb can maintain a quick and productive short to medium range passing attack. Kolb can consistently make deep throws to laterally moving targets though he struggles on deep, vertical routes. Kolb is relatively tough, and can rebound after rough stretches of getting hit or a run of incompletions.

 

[kerouac9]

I'm not sure I have the strength to do this right now. Kolb has a workable skill set. He has shown he can manage game situations and has shown he can limit his turnover production to allow the team to stay in games. He has at times been able move outside the pocket to create plays down the field. When in rhythm, Kolb can maintain a quick and productive short to medium range passing attack. Kolb can consistently make deep throws to laterally moving targets though he struggles on deep, vertical routes. Kolb is relatively tough, and can rebound after rough stretches of getting hit or a run of incompletions.

Right. The problem with Kevin Kolb is that he's a B- in every aspect of his game, but isn't A in any one thing. That's what limits his potential to "a somewhat more mobile Matt Cassel." Cassel can do all those things, but can't do any one thing great.

Top 15 QBs can do everything well and one or two things great. Top 8 QBs can do everything well and four or five things great.

It's just really hard to run an offense when your quarterback is not completing passes deeper than 8 yards downfield. The Bills are going through the same problem with Ryan Fitzpatrick. In fact, Ryan Fitzpatrick might be Kolb's closest equivalent around the NFL.

 

[Duckjake]

This game really was a comedy of errors across our entire offense.

Kolb needs to get this figured out, because he keeps missing big splash plays and today was no exception. He missed Fitz wide open, Roberts wide open and Housler wide open. All near the end zone and possible scoring opportunities WITH good protection. He missed them, the Cardinals stayed behind in the game and forced them to throw the ball more than anyone would have liked.

Then our offensive line reared it's ugly head. Understand one thing, Bobbie Massie is our best starting offensive lineman. Our tackles will give up edge pressure, and that happens. What really hurts the Cardinals is their inability to bring in players to chip on these ends because the interior of the line is not strong enough to handle DTs one on one, and are not athletic enough to slide off double teams to late rushing LBs. The more guys we keep in the more teams will send their LBs late because they know Colledge and Snyder aren't athletic enough to disengage, slide and pick up the rusher. This is why we struggle with max protect. Remember, offensive lines are like cars. Everyone sees and judges the outside of it, but if the engine inside doesn't work, it won't drive no matter how pretty it looks. Our offensive line is ugly outside and broke down inside.

...........

I'm beginning to see what you are talking about. I've noticed for some time that opposing defenses will line up their outside rushers wider than normal and just have them race to the QB. I've wondered how they were able to do that. Now I can see that the weakness inside at the Guard positions allows them to do that because the Cards can't take advantage of those splits as there is nowhere to run or for our QB to move up in the pocket.

That to me is also why when the inside 3 do have a good play there is time for Kolb to step up and throw.

As for Kolb's problem, besides getting shell shocked, I think he has trouble seeing over or around the offensive line. Some of the throws he makes you just know he isn't seeing where he's throwing it. Just throwing to the spot where the receiver is supposed to be without any consideration of the defenders in the area. The fact that so many wide open receivers go unnoticed would also be a result of this.

This again goes back to the interior of the offensive line who aren't creating the passing lanes a QB like Kolb needs to be succesful. That's why Kolb seems to do better if he moves out of the pocket. He can see downfield.

Is it time to scrap the CKW offense and start to move Kolb with roll out plays or similar? I don't know. You usually need a Guard to pull out in front of the QB on the roll outs and I don't know that either Colledge or Snyder could do that effectively.

 

[Denny Green Fan]

I just don't see him as a long term solution. Too limited in too many areas. You CAN win with him as long as you have a strong team around him, but I think he will always struggle to be anything more than average.

I'm still drafting a QB in round 1. Hopefully Tyler Wilson falls.

The chances of Tyler Wilson falling to us is slim. He will be a Raider

Bill Chief or Jaguar. Book it

 

[Snakester]

Its an easy fix. Chip the DE's and put Skelton back in.

 

[D-Dogg]

I'm beginning to see what you are talking about. I've noticed for some time that opposing defenses will line up their outside rushers wider than normal and just have them race to the QB. .

Yep. That's the book on us right now. Speed rushers line up wide, blow by their guy and the interior can't hold a pocket for Kolb to step up into so he's a sitting duck. His pocket is kind of like that little pocket inside of a pocket you have on your jeans...small, useless and not able to store anything of value because there is no room.

 

[ajcardfan]

The chances of Tyler Wilson falling to us is slim. He will be a Raider

Bill Chief or Jaguar. Book it

Tyler Wilson is not going to be very good in the NFL. Book it.

 

[BLRIGHT]

I'm liking Kolb more and more

He has improved significantly. He is hanging in the pocket much longer, his footwork has improved (but needs much more).

I liken this version of Kolb to the 2006 version of Kurt Warner (and Warner with the Giants for that matter). When he is throwing on rhythm, he is generally great. Yes, he threw some inaccurate passes, but even some of these were catchable.

But when he gets hammered and shell-shocked, he does not follow his read progressions. There were about 5-7 times in the second half that he through a 2 yard out because he stopped looking down the field. I really don't think he can be faulted for this.

He failed to see Fitz in single coverage at the one critical time that the announcers noticed. He throws all of his passes in frozen rope style. It seems to me that he could put a little more air under the ball at times to make his ball more catchable to increase YAC.

I have absolutely no problem at all with the play-calling yesterday other than (i) the 4th down pass and (ii) I thought they could have run play action passes more on first down when the Rams seemed to load up for the run.

But the bottom line is that, with that line performance in the second half, no other QB would have changed the outcome yesterday.

 

[Russ Smith]

Its an easy fix. Chip the DE's and put Skelton back in.

Skelton isn't even active so it's not an easy fix if he can't physically play yet.

He WILL play again this year, start several games, no way Kolb can hold up to this beating.

 

[D-Dogg]

Its an easy fix. Chip the DE's and put Skelton back in.

Meh on Skelton. He's got his own unique set of issues, mostly accuracy.

Chip the DEs is a start. But when you have plays where they rush THREE against five, and BOTH edge guys meet at the QB in a flash, it doesn't matter who the QB is. Chipping the DEs is not going to fix that.

The real answer would be running more draws (since we suck at screens) since the DEs are setting up so wide...except the interior breaks down quickly and will probably keep tackling their own teammates like Snyder was doing last night.

There are five guys on that team that owe a lot of apologies, and their position coach needs his head rattled.

 

[kerouac9]

Yep. That's the book on us right now. Speed rushers line up wide, blow by their guy and the interior can't hold a pocket for Kolb to step up into so he's a sitting duck. His pocket is kind of like that little pocket inside of a pocket you have on your jeans...small, useless and not able to store anything of value because there is no room.

The Eagles and Patriots were doing that to us, as well. We were just able to slow them down because---

--wait for it--

--it's coming--

--we were able to run the ball!

Even the threat of the run forces opponents to keep their heads inside the play and not on physically overpowering Massie and Batiste. Every time we line up in shotgun, it's a missed opportunity for us and a win for the defense.

 

[Chopper0080]

Its an easy fix. Chip the DE's and put Skelton back in.

You will notice chipping doesn't work because it allows LBs who are man to man on the chipping RBs to rush the B gaps as Kolb moves up, and our OGs aren't athletic enough to disengage, slide and pick up those late rushing LBers.

As a team, the Cardinals could never have planned to lose both Levi Brown and Jeremy Bridges in the preseason, so I don't blame the team for who they have to send out to play OT. What I do blame the team for in how they have spent their money on the interior personnel. Colledge, Snyder, and Sendlein have always been average at best players, but to think as a group they can be productive is stupid. You have to be able to win one on one match ups and we just don't have the talent INSIDE to do so.

 

[NJCardFan]

Kevin Kolb enables all of Whis and Miller's worst habits. Kolb had like 30 attempts before Williams got injured and the Cards were still within 7. What a disaster.

Run the ball. Kolb isn't that good. He loses the strike zone for LONG periods of time.

Run the ball? Did you miss all of those runs for negative yards? The o-line needs to grow some balls and Whiz needs a better game plan. This is his problem. Things crop up during the game and he doesn't adjust. Why weren't there more slants or outs or quick passes? Also, what idiot called a 3 yard pass play on 4th and goal on the 6? And finally, this team has to improve on it's red zone offense. To get inside the 10 and not score a TD is inexcusable.

 

[ryanshaug]

Kolb hung in all night long, he was getting killed out there. I give him a ton of credit. Yeah, he had some throws that were off, a lot of miscues. But he gives us the best chance at QB right now. He's earned his spot.

The problem is clearly the offensive line. I'm not sure how anyone is expecting to run or pass with the way it's playing.

 

[ajcardfan]

The Eagles and Patriots were doing that to us, as well. We were just able to slow them down because---

--wait for it--

--it's coming--

--we were able to run the ball!

Even the threat of the run forces opponents to keep their heads inside the play and not on physically overpowering Massie and Batiste. Every time we line up in shotgun, it's a missed opportunity for us and a win for the defense.

The New England game was the only game we ran the ball with any success in the first half. The Philly game, more than half of our yards came on the last drive in the 4th quarter when the game was already in the bag. Of course, I'm not trying to argue more of a run game won't help pass protection. But, the line just plain pass blocked better in those games too.

 

[kerouac9]

Run the ball? Did you miss all of those runs for negative yards? The o-line needs to grow some balls and Whiz needs a better game plan. This is his problem. Things crop up during the game and he doesn't adjust. Why weren't there more slants or outs or quick passes? Also, what idiot called a 3 yard pass play on 4th and goal on the 6? And finally, this team has to improve on it's red zone offense. To get inside the 10 and not score a TD is inexcusable.

We had our first rush for no gain with 4:45 seconds remaining.

In the second quarter.

We had our first rush for negative yardage on the first play of the second half.

The problem with going pass-whacky in the first two quarters is that when it's second-and-10 or third-and-six, the opposing defense knows that we're going to pass the ball and pin their ears back. If Kolb gets sacked--as he clearly does frequently--then you compound the problem because there's zero threat to run on second and 14.

We had this exact same discussion at this exact same point last year before Kolb got hurt. I'm not eager to re-litigate it. Kolb is just good enough to make it look like the NEXT pass is going to be a 30-yard completion down the field, and to let Whis convince himself that it's a failure of our clearly talented receiving corps.

 

[Darkside]

Our tackles will give up edge pressure, and that happens. What really hurts the Cardinals is their inability to bring in players to chip on these ends because the interior of the line is not strong enough to handle DTs one on one, and are not athletic enough to slide off double teams to late rushing LBs. The more guys we keep in the more teams will send their LBs late because they know Colledge and Snyder aren't athletic enough to disengage, slide and pick up the rusher. This is why we struggle with max protect. Remember, offensive lines are like cars. Everyone sees and judges the outside of it, but if the engine inside doesn't work, it won't drive no matter how pretty it looks. Our offensive line is ugly outside and broke down inside.

One of the best points made about our line IMO (bolded). After watching the replay, you can see play after play we have 3 or 4 guys blocking inside, sometimes 2 or 3 guys engaged on one linemen in the middle, and they are unable to shed and slide to even slow down the delayed LB blitz. The tackles getting beat outside isn't the whole problem, it's actually the inside rush that's killing us because Kolb can't step up at all. Quinn had several plays against Batsiste where he faked the outside move and dove inside and Batiste got no help, even though that's where his help was supposed to come from.

I agree about Massie perhaps being our best lineman, but he too is getting worked all over the field. I want the dude to pan out bad but he's getting worked, which is to be expected from a rook. I'm more disappointed in Floyd right now than Massie--I think it's easier to learn the nuances of his position than at tackle at the pro level.

One thing that nobody is talking about, rightfully so because our oline was destroyed, is that Ryan Williams is a really good pass blocker out of the backfield. Many times the RB just needs to get a piece of a rusher, or clean up a partial block, but with Williams these dudes are coming in untouched and at full speed and he's still able to square up and stone dudes. I was really impressed with RW's blocking the past few games and especially last night. It was all for naught, but it was the only bright spot for the offense in my opinion.

 

[Catfish]

Chopper, I have said for some time that, (just as a defensive line needs good interior down linemen to anchor the defense), the offensive line needs a really good center to anchor it. Sendlien, (while serviceable), is not the answer to anchoring this O-line. He is just too weak, and light in the britches to make this line go. I really hope that we go after a proven center in free agency this year, (there are some that will be available), and a winning record here might just entice one or two to be interested in coming.

 

[kerouac9]

Chopper, I have said for some time that, (just as a defensive line needs good interior down linemen to anchor the defense), the offensive line needs a really good center to anchor it. Sendlien, (while serviceable), is not the answer to anchoring this O-line. He is just too weak, and light in the britches to make this line go. I really hope that we go after a proven center in free agency this year, (there are some that will be available), and a winning record here might just entice one or two to be interested in coming.

That's just not true anymore. Lyle Sendlein is listed at 6'3", 308 lbs.

Jeff Saturday is 6'2", 285.
Dan Connolly (NEP) is 6'4", 313.
Kyle Cook (CIN) is 6'3", 316.
Ryan Kalil (CAR) is 6'2", 295.
Chris Myers (HOU) is 6'4", 289.
Matt Birk (BAL) is 6'4", 310.

 

[Mainstreet]

I feel sorry for any QB or RB that has to operate behind this offensive line. It is dreadful.

IMO, there is no longer any controversy behind who should start at QB other than it is anyone who can survive behind this offensive line and make plays. The offensive line is definitely the problem... not a hint of doubt in my mind any more. Kolb is lucky to still be walking. I do not anticipate the OL to improve significantly this season. I'm not against switching QBs because one of the QBs might be able to avoid the punishment more than Kolb. I don't know how much more he can take.

 

[SissyBoyFloyd]

He throws all of his passes in frozen rope style. It seems to me that he could put a little more air under the ball at times to make his ball more catchable to increase YAC.

Bingo! That struck me as more than perplexed last night when we had a receiver deep and open by a step and Kolb throw a dart instead of putting air under it and leading the receiver so he can just run under it or even stop and out jump the defender who would have had his back to the ball. I immediately thought to myself that Skelton would have thrown a better pass in that situation. I am shocked that Kolb threw some of those kind of passes in that situation. I am still perplexed. Was it an unusual mistake or is that what Kolb does all the time on those plays. If so, I have no use for him. Fitz likes the ball thrown high and deep.