The Luka Report

[SirStefan32]

The league may have adjusted, but what I am saying is that it can be forced to adjust again. We are already seeing some of it with the guys like Embiid and Jokic, who do have outside game, but they are also very good in the low post. If Ayton develops into a scoring machine in the low post, teams will be forced to adjust to that. Ayton already has the ability to score in the low post, hit an open mid-range jumper, pass the ball from the post, and also guard the perimeter.

 

[BC867]

I think it's too early and the reverse might be true. Having Doncic in the short term would get us closer. However, IF and it's a big IF.....if Ayton lives up to his potential? I think that getting Rubio, drafting Ayton and putting them with Booker is the better longer term choice.

If Ayton doesn't live up to it? This team will definitely regret not picking Doncic. Again, though you can't blame the Suns. I don't think any team would have picked differently than the Suns leading up to the draft.

That's the point. Doncic is clearly an outstanding player. Apparently
a generational player.

But I'm more concerned with the Suns becoming a serious playoff
competitor than having an All Star or one player with triple-doubles.
Which means skill and a proper balance among a nine man rotation.

With Doncic on the Suns, Booker would have even less of a chance
of being voted onto the All Star squad than he has so far.

Ayton, Booker, Rubio and Oubre as the foundation fill more needs
than Doncic, Booker and Oubre -- 3 Wings, one with distribution
skills. And extremely weak, again, at the two power positions.

It all depends upon Ayton. If he is a disappointment, it means the
Suns didn't do their homework. If they did, choosing him over
Doncic was the right move at the time.

 

[BC867]

Not at all. I've never believed he was the next David Robinson but I still believe he can become a top 5 center and that's something we've desperately needed since Neal Walk's short brush with stardom. But Doncic is already a top 5 player IMO and he impacts the game in ways that no big man is capable of with the current rules.

Neal Walk. Man, that fifty years ago.

Our #2 draft pick was a long, long way behind Alcindor (Kareem).

 

[BC867]

The league may have adjusted, but what I am saying is that it can be forced to adjust again. We are already seeing some of it with the guys like Embiid and Jokic, who do have outside game, but they are also very good in the low post. If Ayton develops into a scoring machine in the low post, teams will be forced to adjust to that. Ayton already has the ability to score in the low post, hit an open mid-range jumper, pass the ball from the post, and also guard the perimeter.

Which means play Power Forward on defense.

That would call for Baynes to start alongside Ayton,
rather than come off the bench when he returns.

That being the case, we need a backup Center and,
unless Saric develops, a backup Power Forward.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Neal Walk. Man, that fifty years ago.

Our #2 draft pick was a long, long way behind Alcindor (Kareem).

True but in his best year for us he put up 20 and 12 which had a lot of us in the Valley hoping we'd at least drafted the poor man's version of Kareem.

 

[Covert Rain]

If I got it right..... Your saying that big men are just as valuable as they were in the 90's and early 2000's but the college game hasn't given us any? Therefore there haven't been any?

Go ahead a make a list of some of the top big men from the last 15 years to so that played in the league at the same time. Then tell me that those same caliber guys are coming out of college today. What I am saying is that if we had the same caliber of big man talent...100% the game would be featuring those same guys today.

I don't think the league has irreversibly changed. Yeah, guard/ wing play has dominated over the past few years, but I think these things largely depend on who is in the league. I think if a few big men become a huge force for their team, the league will shift away (at least a bit) away from the whole guard/ wing thing. I don't buy the "Big men are not important anymore" narrative. Guys like Jokic and Embid are essential to their teams. If Ayton develops how we hope he will develop, he will be every bit as important to his team. If 20-something Shaq, Hakeem, Robinson, and Ewing entered the league today, things would shift back towards big men again.

This. The game adjusts to players. It's not the other way around. The league doesn't wake up one day and go....hey....we want to be a small ball, 3 point oriented league and force players to become THAT. It doesn't work that way.

 

[GatorAZ]

I think, even IF Ayton becomes the next David Robinson, that we would still be further along in our quest for a title if we had Doncic instead of Rubio, Deandre, Baynes, Kaminsky and Saric. The center position just doesn't hold the importance that it did even a decade ago and I don't see that changing. Luka makes everyone better and IMO is likely to be in the MVP discussion for the next decade plus.

Nobody on this board is higher on Luka then me but I’d take David Robinson a million times over. He was a two-way juggernaut. The Admiral would be the best player in the league if he were at his peak. Imagine a more explosive Embiid with a complete offensive repertoire.

 

[CRC83]

Go ahead a make a list of some of the top big men from the last 15 years to so that played in the league at the same time. Then tell me that those same caliber guys are coming out of college today. What I am saying is that if we had the same caliber of big man talent...100% the game would be featuring those same guys today.



This. The game adjusts to players. It's not the other way around. The league doesn't wake up one day and go....hey....we want to be a small ball, 3 point oriented league and force players to become THAT. It doesn't work that way.

That’s not really true though. Rule changes and analytics have had an impact on what type of player is most impactful. Players today are better 3 pt shooters than ever before (because of the focus on it). Rule changes and how games are officiated now favor guards/wings. Better to shoot 41% from 3 than 60% from 2. Just a different game now with the focus on the 3 and most teams taking 30+ a game.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Nobody on this board is higher on Luka then me but I’d take David Robinson a million times over. He was a two-way juggernaut. The Admiral would be the best player in the league if he were at his peak. Imagine a more explosive Embiid with a complete offensive repertoire.

I can only think of 3 players that I was a real fan of that didn't play for the Suns and they were Rick Barry, Magic Johnson and David Robinson. I have the utmost respect for David's game and IMO he got the shaft by refs (versus Utah) and the subsequent cheap shots from Rodman and Jim Rome somewhat destroyed his legacy but he was incredible. In every way. And he'd be incredible in today's game too, just not Luka incredible IMO.

 

[CRC83]

Mavs go for 140+ again beating the Cavs. Doncic 30 pts, 7 rebs and 14 assists w/ crazy shooting %s. Mavs now 10-5

 

[BC867]

There is a point that has not been discussed. If a non-power player (Guard or Wing)
becomes as much a focal point as Luca has, all a team has to do is wear him down
or injure him over the course of the season to gain an upper hand in the playoffs.

Steve Nash is the best example. Just as the Suns were over the years, you'll make
the playoffs, but never become an ongoing championship contender. In fifty years
the Suns reached the Finals twice, and one of them was a Cinderella season.

The only championship Dallas has ever won was when they added Tyson Chandler at
Center to Dirk. The Suns later tried it with Chandler, but he was past his prime then.

Look at Devin Booker being triple-teamed, whether as Shooting Guard or Point Guard
(or both). It takes someone bigger and stronger than Doncic to form a powerhouse.

Oscar Robertson averaging triple-doubles all season long won Milwaukee its only
championship because he played alongside Alcindor (Kareem). Magic also had Kareem.

And Michael, who was superhuman and driven, had three solid role playing Centers
rotating in the post.

I have no doubt that if Luca averages a triple-double and wins MVP as well as
Rookie of the Year, Dallas will not win the Championship. The League makes it
so easy to neutralize a 6'7"-218 superstar during crunch time and the playoffs.
He will be a target, just like Booker.

That is why DeAndre Ayton was the #1 pick. Now it is up to the Suns to develop
him as they build a team around him.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Go ahead a make a list of some of the top big men from the last 15 years to so that played in the league at the same time. Then tell me that those same caliber guys are coming out of college today. What I am saying is that if we had the same caliber of big man talent...100% the game would be featuring those same guys today.

Kevin Durant is 6'11 <-- Does this not count?
Giannis at 7'0
AD
KAT
Gobert <-- Only one who cant dominate offensively.
Jokic
Embiid

Porzingis & Aldridge are outthere as well.

Are these guys not the same caliber? All of them have molded themselves to play the NEW game. Not the low post 80pt nightmare's that the NBA has worked to eliminate through multiple rule changes.

Giannis, KAT, Gobert, Jokic, Embiid, Pre-injury Cousins, & Aldridge all could play in the 90's era or the early 2000's. Easy.

Even Duncan had to develop a 3pt shot as he matured.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Where it gets super ugly is the list of players now that would have been better 15 to 20 years ago.

Drummond
Griffin
Deandre Jordan
Dwight
Noah
Jefferson
Prob Cousins again
Eddy Curry & Andrew Bynum <-- This may be the canary in the coal mine.

 

[elindholm]

Even Duncan had to develop a 3pt shot as he matured.

Duncan's career high for made threes in a season was 7, way back in 2000-01. He never made more than 2 in any of his last ten seasons, and his career accuracy was 18%.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Even Duncan had to develop a 3pt shot as he matured.

Not to nitpick but perhaps you're thinking of someone else? Tim stretched the court by being deadly at the mid-range shot, not by developing his 3 point game. He had more attempts and more makes from distance in his first 6 years of his long career than he did in his last 13 seasons. In his 4th season, he had season highs in both attempts (27) and makes (7). As for effectiveness from the arc, his best seasons were the 05 and 06 seasons where he shot a combined 5 for 14 over the 2 years.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Where it gets super ugly is the list of players now that would have been better 15 to 20 years ago.

Drummond
Griffin
Deandre Jordan
Dwight
Noah
Jefferson
Prob Cousins again
Eddy Curry & Andrew Bynum <-- This may be the canary in the coal mine.

I'm not sure why you'd put Griffin in that group? His skills work just as well in today's game IMO, maybe even better - his biggest weakness has to do with his body breaking down. And that likely would have happened even sooner if he were stuck on the low blocks banging with the 90's era big men.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Duncan's career high for made threes in a season was 7, way back in 2000-01. He never made more than 2 in any of his last ten seasons, and his career accuracy was 18%.

Your right.... I'm wrong

Not to nit pick but perhaps you're thinking of someone else? Tim stretched the court by being deadly at the mid-range shot, not by developing his 3 point game. He had more attempts and more makes from distance in his first 6 years of his long career than he did in his last 13 seasons. In his 4th season, he had season highs in both attempts (27) and makes (7). As for effectiveness from the arc, his best seasons were the 05 and 06 seasons where he shot a combined 5 for 14 over the 2 years.

I must be... More thoughts to come.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Your right.... I'm wrong


I must be... More thoughts to come.

I had Brook Lopez still on my brain. Sorry. I remember looking at him yesterday and seeing this huge shift in his numbers.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Your right.... I'm wrong


I must be... More thoughts to come.

Does that erase the rest of my post?

Not for me it doesn't and that's why I removed all of your post except for that comment and acknowledged that I might be nitpicking there.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Not for me it doesn't and that's why I removed all of your post except for that comment and acknowledged that I might be nitpicking there.

edited... we're good

 

[Covert Rain]

Kevin Durant is 6'11 <-- Does this not count?
Giannis at 7'0
AD
KAT
Gobert <-- Only one who cant dominate offensively.
Jokic
Embiid

Porzingis & Aldridge are outthere as well.

Are these guys not the same caliber? All of them have molded themselves to play the NEW game. Not the low post 80pt nightmare's that the NBA has worked to eliminate through multiple rule changes.

Giannis, KAT, Gobert, Jokic, Embiid, Pre-injury Cousins, & Aldridge all could play in the 90's era or the early 2000's. Easy.

Even Duncan had to develop a 3pt shot as he matured.

I will take your list against some of the big men playing at the same time in the past in a heartbeat. Oh and nobody was scared of Duncan and his 3 point ability.

OK, so what you are saying is the league wakes up one day, and decides we are going to be a small ball 3 point shooting league and the players are forced to do it. Not that the league adjusts to the players coming out of college? That's not how it works. Sure the league can try and make rule changes to for example to accommodate the types of players in the league but they can't force players to be legit big men.

That’s not really true though. Rule changes and analytics have had an impact on what type of player is most impactful. Players today are better 3 pt shooters than ever before (because of the focus on it). Rule changes and how games are officiated now favor guards/wings. Better to shoot 41% from 3 than 60% from 2. Just a different game now with the focus on the 3 and most teams taking 30+ a game.

Rule changes can't make guys better passers, rebounders, or help them with fundamentals around the rim. Rule changes can exploit the strengths of the players in the league. So for example, if the guys coming out of college are in essence better 3 point shooters or guys that like to run, you change the rules to exploit who the players are.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Kevin Durant is 6'11 <-- Does this not count?
Giannis at 7'0
AD
KAT
Gobert <-- Only one who cant dominate offensively.
Jokic
Embiid

Porzingis & Aldridge are outthere as well.

Are these guys not the same caliber? All of them have molded themselves to play the NEW game. Not the low post 80pt nightmare's that the NBA has worked to eliminate through multiple rule changes.

Giannis, KAT, Gobert, Jokic, Embiid, Pre-injury Cousins, & Aldridge all could play in the 90's era or the early 2000's. Easy.

Even Duncan had to develop a 3pt shot as he matured.

Those guys might’ve been able to “play” in the 90s and 80s but I’m unsure they would’ve dominated. I think most of them would’ve been abused by Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, Shaq. I think many of them would have had rik Smit’s or dikembe mutumbo level (not Play type) careers. Due to the size and strength of centers back then a lot of those guys (other than jokic, gobert and Embiid) May have been relegated to playing forward. I think some of you fail to recall there were a lot of second tier talented back to the basket players too like Alonzo mourning, Jermaine O’Neal, Sabonis, Smit’s, mutumbo, Duckworth, Parrish, daugherty, Divac, Duncan, Ilgauskas, Ben wallace. And that’s not counting PFs like Barkley, Kemp, kg, buck Williams, Elden Campbell, Perkins, Kevin Willis, mchale, worthy, Coleman, Rasheed Wallace, mailman, Webber, Juwan Howard, grandmama, vin baker, Oakley, Thorpe, Abdur rahim, Mason, dale davis, googs, Rodman, nance, cummings.

there was just a lot more talented bigs in those two decades imo.

 

[Covert Rain]

Those guys might’ve been able to “play” in the 90s and 80s but I’m unsure they would’ve dominated. I think most of them would’ve been abused by Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, Shaq. I think many of them would have had rik Smit’s or dikembe mutumbo level (not Play type) careers. Due to the size and strength of centers back then a lot of those guys (other than jokic, gobert and Embiid) May have been relegated to playing forward. I think some of you fail to recall there were a lot of second tier talented back to the basket players too like Alonzo mourning, Jermaine O’Neal, Sabonis, Smit’s, mutumbo, Duckworth, Parrish, daugherty, Divac, Duncan, Ilgauskas, Ben wallace. And that’s not counting PFs like Barkley, Kemp, kg, buck Williams, Elden Campbell, Perkins, Kevin Willis, mchale, worthy, Coleman, Rasheed Wallace, mailman, Webber, Juwan Howard, grandmama, vin baker, Oakley, Thorpe, Abdur rahim, Mason, dale davis, googs, Rodman, nance, cummings.

there was just a lot more talented bigs in those two decades imo.

This X 1000. Thanks Ouchie. I was being too lazy to put together a list but it you can chalk those guys up to just "romanticizing" about how the league used to be and saying they wouldn't dominate today.

 

[GatorAZ]

I can only think of 3 players that I was a real fan of that didn't play for the Suns and they were Rick Barry, Magic Johnson and David Robinson. I have the utmost respect for David's game and IMO he got the shaft by refs (versus Utah) and the subsequent cheap shots from Rodman and Jim Rome somewhat destroyed his legacy but he was incredible. In every way. And he'd be incredible in today's game too, just not Luka incredible IMO.

I love Luka but I’m not close to comparing him to all timers. There’s a difference between playing like a top-5 player and being a top-5 player. Those assertions are earned in the postseason. That said he looks like a prodigy and I’d swap anyone on this roster for him in a second but we’re talking about the MF’n Admiral.

 

[Mainstreet]

For those interested.

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