The New CBA & Drafting in rounds (4 - 7)

RugbyMuffin

ASFN IDOL
Joined
Apr 30, 2003
Posts
30,485
Reaction score
4,877
The new CBA has made some changes to the way NFL teams are doing business. K9 has a really good explanation of how the NFL doesn't have a strong middle class anymore. What he meant by that is that NFL rosters are reflecting modern economical classes where you have the players making big money, and players making minimal, and that middle tier quasi-starter/depth guy that the Patriots were so famous for finding every year during their heyday is no longer an option. In other words, there is no room for the middle tier football player in the salary cap in most cases.

Now this isn't a 100%, black or white situation. We all saw what Keim has done with the the "middle tier" player. Keim waits out the big money days, and has some magical sales pitch to players, that gets said player to play for the Cardinals on a "prove it" contract. The problem is that, like in Karlos Dansby's case, the contracts are usually 1 year in length and re-signing the talent is no sure thing.

So, where is all this rambling going ?

In concerns to the draft, this situation above makes the draft more important than ever. Those late round picks, which I would slate as rounds 4 through 7, have to bring something to the table.

Why ? Because their contracts are the least expensive a team can get and put on an active roster. Just look at the contracts listed here:

http://blog.azcardinals.com/2014/03/24/extra-money-for-lesser-paid-cards/

Matheui was a 3rd round pick, and his cap number was well under 1 million for the season.

So, every year each team is given 4 selections in the draft to find some value that can help in any way. But, the risk is minimal. Don't get me wrong if you miss on every late round player it will cost you in money and talent because you have to sign an outside free agent. But, the cap penalties for cutting the late round drafted player is almost negligible.

OK, still not getting what the heck I am talking about ? I don't blame you, but here is my thought from this morning.

If I am running a franchise, I make a goal for the team to try and make good on at least 75% of the draft choices that are chosen after round 4. That is not to say you don't try for 100%, but at least when it comes to taking risks, I would say keep a risky pick to a minimum of 1 risk per 4 choices

For example, lets say the Cardinals had their 7th round pick this season.

They pick conservatively in three out of the four last rounds (again 4,5,6 & 7). The 3 conservative picks are high value, high potential, and low risk.

The 4th pick they use on a position that can be hit or miss. Positions like kickers, punters, quarterbacks, running backs, or a small school guy like Justin Bethel.

Get it ? Well if you do, then here is what I would do.

Running backs.

The age of the running back is over. DONE.

They don't get chosen in the 1st round anymore, and thus the best running backs are now available in the 2nd round, and even then, they are few and far in between.

Thus there is good value, when talking modern day NFL drafts, at the running back position in the 3rd round, AND in the 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th.

The risk and "lack of talent" at running back is minimal, so why not take a risk on one from time to time.

And you know what ? Keim and the Cardinals front office is WAY ahead of me on this idea. Thus why the team ends up picking Andre Elllington and Stepfan Taylor.

Why did they pick these players ? Well, why not ? They are 6th round picks with minimal salaries. You can cut them that preseason if they don't work out, and the salary penalties are negligible, and you are out a whopping 6th round pick which is hit or miss no matter who you draft anyway.

Thus while there may never be a need at running back, I would not be apposed to seeing the Cardinals draft one in the late round on almost a yearly basis.

Yes, yearly basis.

If you think about it, and how things have changed......its not to crazy of an idea, and actually it makes a lot of sense.

What do you think ?

Any other positions you could think of that the modern day game may have lessened the value of to the point where the talent has deemed less value just for the sake of the position and not the actual talent of the player.

For example, Andre Ellington had way more talent than a 6th round pick. Ten year ago, he may not have gone in the 1st round, but he would not have lasted until the 6th round. But the value of the running back position relative to the current state of the game, his value, because of the position he plays has dropped. Bad for him, but good for NFL football teams that can almost count on running backs dropping and value to be found in lack rounds.

Thus creating an extremely low risk and very high reward situation that can be "exploited" so to speak.

So again, any other positions that may come to mind ? Inside linebacker perhaps ?
 

oaken1

Stone Cold
Supporting Member
Banned from P+R
Joined
Mar 13, 2004
Posts
18,174
Reaction score
16,258
Location
Modesto, California
hmmmm.....the lowest four or five salaries do not even count towards the cap do they?
 

BullheadCardFan

Go for it
Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2005
Posts
63,131
Reaction score
28,367
Location
Bullhead City, AZ
Interesting read.

There is talent to be found in the late rounds. I believe you need a good coaching staff to make it work on a regular basis. Late round picks usually have flaws that need correcting.

Curious to see how SK works the later rounds this year.
 
OP
OP
RugbyMuffin

RugbyMuffin

ASFN IDOL
Joined
Apr 30, 2003
Posts
30,485
Reaction score
4,877
hmmmm.....the lowest four or five salaries do not even count towards the cap do they?

Until there final roster is made in September, IIRC.

Regardless the point is, why not draft running back in late round every year, or close to every year ?

What is the worst that happens ? You cut him ?

The best that can happen is you get a good RB for 4 to 5 years (the normal prime in the NFL), and then let them walk because you already have a bunch of RB's in waiting behind him.

Thus never having to pay out big money at the running back position, and improving your chances of always having talent waiting to be next man up.
 

Reddog

ASFN Lifer
Joined
Jan 8, 2003
Posts
2,807
Reaction score
323
Location
Scottsdale
This is a very interesting read and it makes it all the more curious why they have kept Ryan Williams on the roster and never activated him. They must still see something special in him especially at the $1M hit this year. He produces early or never sees the regular season.
 

kerouac9

Klowned by Keim
Joined
Feb 14, 2003
Posts
38,391
Reaction score
29,777
Location
Gilbert, AZ
I guess you're right, but if you're going to draft a running back every year, and you're going to draft a quarterback every year, and you're going to draft a linebacker and corner every year (I'd draft a DB every year), then all of a sudden you don't have a place for value players at TE, OL, and DL.

I get where you're going, but if we drafted another RB next month, then we'd have five guys; that'll get you to camp, but one of them aren't going to make the roster, and you've squandered the draft capital that you said you loved.

Also, with the jump in the CBA, I'm not so sure the middle class is really being removed from the equation. I wonder if instead the security of the middle class is getting eliminated. I don't know if Stewart Bradley's moral equivalent or Jeff King's moral equivalent is going to get a four- or five-year deal anymore. It's smart business for teams, but it puts a lot of pressure and stress on an individual athlete.
 

WildBB

Yogi n da Bear
Joined
Mar 20, 2004
Posts
14,295
Reaction score
1,239
Location
The Sonoran Jungle - West
Also, with the jump in the CBA, I'm not so sure the middle class is really being removed from the equation. I wonder if instead the security of the middle class is getting eliminated. I don't know if Stewart Bradley's moral equivalent or Jeff King's moral equivalent is going to get a four- or five-year deal anymore. It's smart business for teams, but it puts a lot of pressure and stress on an individual athlete.

Real world. Things aren't like they used to be.

London here we come. ;)
 

Solar7

Go Suns
Joined
May 18, 2002
Posts
11,172
Reaction score
12,108
Location
Las Vegas, NV
Not that I don't love the idea of taking fliers on guys that might eventually have trade value and such, or insurance in case of injury, I see RB as one of the more limited spaces on any team's roster. If you've got a room full of guys you trust at that point, the rookie hasn't got much of a chance unless he really impresses... and then you're letting go of another young guy, in your scenario.

I'd rather pick an offensive lineman, as they have a tendency to find a way to contribute from later rounds as part of a unit. Many teams out there have filled out their lines using late-round picks, because some of their deficiencies can be masked when playing next to great players. Or, their technique can be taught.

I also like corners and WRs.
 

Chopper0080

2021 - Prove It
Joined
May 15, 2002
Posts
28,283
Reaction score
40,300
Location
Colorado
Not that I don't love the idea of taking fliers on guys that might eventually have trade value and such, or insurance in case of injury, I see RB as one of the more limited spaces on any team's roster. If you've got a room full of guys you trust at that point, the rookie hasn't got much of a chance unless he really impresses... and then you're letting go of another young guy, in your scenario.

I'd rather pick an offensive lineman, as they have a tendency to find a way to contribute from later rounds as part of a unit. Many teams out there have filled out their lines using late-round picks, because some of their deficiencies can be masked when playing next to great players. Or, their technique can be taught.

I also like corners and WRs.

Examples please. I see this being thrown around a bunch and I am curious what late round OL are contributing. If you are ok with the Bradley Sowell's of the league, then I guess that would be one, but I am not sure any on this board would be happy with Sowell as a starter on the offensive line.

IMO, the best best for late picks to stick with rosters is by drafting role players who have some athleticism which might allow them to transition to a larger role. You draft guys like Bethel, Sherman, Taylor, Ellington who are picked to fill a certain role with a team, then they are in a position to succeed. Bethel was taken to be a special teams contributor and is now being tried out for a larger role. Taylor was brought in to be a physical RB and seems to be solid in that role. Ellington was brought in to be a change of pace back and has grown out of that role. Returners, gunners, vertical WRs, blocking TEs, FBs, coverage LBs, and thumper LBs. Find players who can get some playing time right away so you can evaluate them and see if they can do things outside of that role.
 
OP
OP
RugbyMuffin

RugbyMuffin

ASFN IDOL
Joined
Apr 30, 2003
Posts
30,485
Reaction score
4,877
I guess you're right, but if you're going to draft a running back every year, and you're going to draft a quarterback every year, and you're going to draft a linebacker and corner every year (I'd draft a DB every year), then all of a sudden you don't have a place for value players at TE, OL, and DL.

I get where you're going, but if we drafted another RB next month, then we'd have five guys; that'll get you to camp, but one of them aren't going to make the roster, and you've squandered the draft capital that you said you loved.

I know I probably mis-worded something somewhere.

It doesn't have to be a RB every year, it can be any position that you can find good value in later rounds.

Off the top of my head I would suggest it is harder to find a QB, OL, pass rusher, CB later in the draft. They definitely can be found, but the at what rate ?

Positions like RB, ILB, DE, and WR for example have a higher change of getting good "starter" talent in later round.

I don't suggest you draft a player from each position every year, I suggest that 1 out of every 4 late round picks you use on a "risk" for a player not in need. So one year it may be a running back, or the next an inside linebacker.

Last draft the Cardinals didn't need to draft two running backs, but they did.

If they were to draft another running back this year, at best that running back takes Ryan Williams' roster spot, and at worse he is cut, and it is no more of a set back then when Ryan Swope didn't pan out.

I just started thinking about it this morning, so there are bound to be some holes in the logic.

Good stuff.
 

kerouac9

Klowned by Keim
Joined
Feb 14, 2003
Posts
38,391
Reaction score
29,777
Location
Gilbert, AZ
Examples please. I see this being thrown around a bunch and I am curious what late round OL are contributing. If you are ok with the Bradley Sowell's of the league, then I guess that would be one, but I am not sure any on this board would be happy with Sowell as a starter on the offensive line.

Geoff Schwartz was a 7th round pick of the Carolina Panthers before playing at a high level with the Chiefs.

49ers RG Alex Boone was an undrafted free agent.

Bengals C Kyle Cook was an undrafted free agent. Anthony Collins and Clint Bolling were both 4th round picks.

Panthers RT Byron Bell was undrafted.

The Patriots had two UDFAs starting in the middle of their line.

The defending Super Bowl champs had 2 seventh-round picks starting on the right side of their line.
 

Duckjake

LEGACY MEMBER
LEGACY MEMBER
Joined
Jun 10, 2002
Posts
32,190
Reaction score
317
Location
Texas
Meanwhile our best players are: Larry Fitzgerald round 1, Michael Floyd round 1, Patrick Peterson round 1, Darnell Dockett round 3 in the best draft ever, Daryl Washington round 2, Dan Williams round 1 Carson Palmer round 1. John Abraham round 1.

Heck, we hardly have any players at all drafted after the 3rd round that weren't rookies that contributed much of anything. Bethel on special teams and our patchwork quilt of an offensive line had a couple and that's about it.

Acho, a 4th round pick, was injured of course and now most of the posters here don't think he should even play for us anymore. :p
 

Chopper0080

2021 - Prove It
Joined
May 15, 2002
Posts
28,283
Reaction score
40,300
Location
Colorado
Geoff Schwartz was a 7th round pick of the Carolina Panthers before playing at a high level with the Chiefs.

49ers RG Alex Boone was an undrafted free agent.

Bengals C Kyle Cook was an undrafted free agent. Anthony Collins and Clint Bolling were both 4th round picks.

Panthers RT Byron Bell was undrafted.

The Patriots had two UDFAs starting in the middle of their line.

The defending Super Bowl champs had 2 seventh-round picks starting on the right side of their line.

I'm not sure I consider 4th round picks as "late round"

Geoff Schwartz
Alex Boone
Byron Bell is being tabbed by the Panthers but I have my doubts
Lyle Sendlein
Kyle Cook

I know there are more because there are 160 starting offensive linemen in the NFL. My point is if there are 20 "late round" or "undrafted" starting offensive linemen come the start of the 2014 season, that translates to only 12.5% of the starting offensive linemen around the league. Comparatively, 5 projected starting QBs were drafted after the 3rd round which would comprise 15.6% of starting QBs being late round picks.

I guess my point is that while it is possible that you can find starting offensive linemen in the late rounds of the draft, I don't believe it is as prevelant as most seem to think. Maybe the likelihood of drafting a starting OL with a late round pick is just as likely as a starter at any other position.
 

oaken1

Stone Cold
Supporting Member
Banned from P+R
Joined
Mar 13, 2004
Posts
18,174
Reaction score
16,258
Location
Modesto, California
I'm not sure I consider 4th round picks as "late round"

Geoff Schwartz
Alex Boone
Byron Bell is being tabbed by the Panthers but I have my doubts
Lyle Sendlein
Kyle Cook

I know there are more because there are 160 starting offensive linemen in the NFL. My point is if there are 20 "late round" or "undrafted" starting offensive linemen come the start of the 2014 season, that translates to only 12.5% of the starting offensive linemen around the league. Comparatively, 5 projected starting QBs were drafted after the 3rd round which would comprise 15.6% of starting QBs being late round picks.

I guess my point is that while it is possible that you can find starting offensive linemen in the late rounds of the draft, I don't believe it is as prevelant as most seem to think. Maybe the likelihood of drafting a starting OL with a late round pick is just as likely as a starter at any other position.



from observation,...with absolutely zero evidence to back it up....I would say Centers, Guards, and long snappers generally come in later rounds and develop to contribute...unless they are elite, elite centers and guards may go in the first or second round,... tackles have a more difficult job to do so are usually drafted earlier as the good ones are rare and no amount of development can improve upon missing athletic ability
 

GuernseyCard

ASFN Icon
Joined
Dec 29, 2012
Posts
10,123
Reaction score
5,681
Location
London UK
Geoff Schwartz was a 7th round pick of the Carolina Panthers before playing at a high level with the Chiefs.

49ers RG Alex Boone was an undrafted free agent.

Bengals C Kyle Cook was an undrafted free agent. Anthony Collins and Clint Bolling were both 4th round picks.

Panthers RT Byron Bell was undrafted.

The Patriots had two UDFAs starting in the middle of their line.

The defending Super Bowl champs had 2 seventh-round picks starting on the right side of their line.

Keim is passing on the Johnny Football pro day, Thursday, and joining some twenty scouts up in Montreal to view this guy. Tentatively they say that he has a 4th round grade.

http://www.hudl.com/athlete/o/1279374/highlights/97081375
 

kerouac9

Klowned by Keim
Joined
Feb 14, 2003
Posts
38,391
Reaction score
29,777
Location
Gilbert, AZ
I'm not sure I consider 4th round picks as "late round"

Geoff Schwartz
Alex Boone
Byron Bell is being tabbed by the Panthers but I have my doubts
Lyle Sendlein
Kyle Cook

I know there are more because there are 160 starting offensive linemen in the NFL. My point is if there are 20 "late round" or "undrafted" starting offensive linemen come the start of the 2014 season, that translates to only 12.5% of the starting offensive linemen around the league. Comparatively, 5 projected starting QBs were drafted after the 3rd round which would comprise 15.6% of starting QBs being late round picks.

I guess my point is that while it is possible that you can find starting offensive linemen in the late rounds of the draft, I don't believe it is as prevelant as most seem to think. Maybe the likelihood of drafting a starting OL with a late round pick is just as likely as a starter at any other position.

I think that's fair. I think that people look at non-glamour positions and kind of assume that they're manned by late-round picks. I was surprised looking at various rosters how many of the starters were high-round picks. I was mostly looking at good offensive lines; it doesn't make sense for me to include scrubs who are going to be replaced.

The other complicating issue is that OL have much longer careers than most other non-superstar NFL players. If you hit on a 2nd round pick at, say, tackle, you can probably pencil him in there for 8 years. You really can't do that with a running back or wide receiver. And that limits the possibilities for late-round picks to make an impact and develop into a starting role.
 

D-Dogg

A Whole New World
Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2003
Posts
44,920
Reaction score
877
Location
In The End Zone

GuernseyCard

ASFN Icon
Joined
Dec 29, 2012
Posts
10,123
Reaction score
5,681
Location
London UK
Don't know anything about him other than this film, but I love his tenacity on it. Now, he could be blocking a bunch of weaklings, but he's got a lot of fire.

6'5" 321 - 38 reps at 225.

Makes most football players look weak.
 

MadCardDisease

Moderator
Moderator
Supporting Member
Joined
May 13, 2002
Posts
20,767
Reaction score
14,687
Location
Chandler, Az

GuernseyCard

ASFN Icon
Joined
Dec 29, 2012
Posts
10,123
Reaction score
5,681
Location
London UK
Dude should be nicknamed "Flapjack" considering all of the pancake blocks he has. Wonder how he would fair against more talented competition?

He must have impressed at the Shrine Bowl given that there are some 20 Scouts at his Pro Day tomorrow in Montreal, and that Keim would go so far to take a look says something.
 

MadCardDisease

Moderator
Moderator
Supporting Member
Joined
May 13, 2002
Posts
20,767
Reaction score
14,687
Location
Chandler, Az
He must have impressed at the Shrine Bowl given that there are some 20 Scouts at his Pro Day tomorrow in Montreal, and that Keim would go so far to take a look says something.

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/03/24/cardinals-gm-to-check-out-duvernay-tardif-in-person

Keim sounds really interested in him as a project. NFL.com has him projected as a 3rd - 4th rounder. 3rd round sounds high for someone so raw though. Still the Cardinals like their small college gems so it wouldn't shock me if they ended up selecting him at some point.
 

GuernseyCard

ASFN Icon
Joined
Dec 29, 2012
Posts
10,123
Reaction score
5,681
Location
London UK
http://www.torontosun.com/2014/03/24/cardinals-gm-to-check-out-duvernay-tardif-in-person

Keim sounds really interested in him as a project. NFL.com has him projected as a 3rd - 4th rounder. 3rd round sounds high for someone so raw though. Still the Cardinals like their small college gems so it wouldn't shock me if they ended up selecting him at some point.

I had read the earlier piece.

Interesting tdbit I found on the McGill web site.

The first football game with rules approaching today's was between Harvard and McGill.

It led to 3 down football in Canada and 4 in the U.S.
 
Last edited:
Top