The Offensive Line Problem

Mitch

Crawled Through 5 FB Fields
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Posts
13,405
Reaction score
2,982
Location
Wrentham, MA
First of all...if one really wants to know how far the Cardinals have come in challenging for the NFC West title, consider this. When comparing the Cardinals' starters to the Seahawks'...the Cardinals are only stronger and more talented at five positions: WR (Boldin), WR (Fitzgerald), RDE (Berry), SLB (Dansby) and SS (Wilson). Call Edge and Shaun a tie...although an argument can be made that Shaun Alexander is the best and most productive back in the NFL right now.

Talent and production-wise the Seahawks are stronger at QB, FB, LT, LG, C, RG, RT, DT, DT, LDE, WLB, MLB, LCB, RCB and FS.

Think the Cardinals have some catching up to do?

It all starts with the offensive line...doesn't it?

Yet, why is Dennis Green continuing to twiddle his thumbs?

Mind boggling, isn't it?

Yeah, hiring Steve Loney to coach the unit was smart...finally. But, is Green realistic to think that Loney can turn below average linemen into stalwarts?

Adding G Milford Brown helps...but one has to wonder why the Texans, who have just as significant o-line problems as the Cardinals...why they would so easily part with Brown. The answer? He's been shaky in pass protection.

Hopefully, Loney can bring the best out of Brown. I believe he will.

But, what about the rest of the line?

Reggie Wells? Wells said he was playing well when he got hurt. What games was he watching? Yes, Wells is a pretty solid pass protector. But, as a guard (with his lack of girth and point of attack strength) he does virtually nothing for the running game.

Is Wells a center? Maybe. But, his lack of interior strength should cost him there too.

Is Wells a tackle? I believe he is. He has the agility, athleticism and footwork to be a solid tackle...and he has the strength and arm punch to muscle defensive ends in both the run and the passing games.

The Cardinals still don't really know what they have in Wells...but they should know he's not a good starting guard. Under these circumstances, unless Steve Loney is convinced Wells will be his starting center or right tackle...the team shouldn't match the Bills' 5/$17M offer. Take the 6th rounder.

Elton Brown shows some solid potential at guard...and looks to be the part physically, although he's not a strong at the point of attack as his body mass suggests. His strength is in his suprising ability to get out on his pulls and track defenders down in space. Hopefully, he's been working the weights fast and furiously this off-season. His pass protection needs serious work as well. He's a sucker for rip and swim moves as he's prone to losing his base and balance when countering for swims and rips. Steve Loney will teach Brown to stay solid in his base by sitting down more strongly and keeping his arms tighter to his frame.

Will Elton Brown be a starter this year? Right now that's questionable.

What about Alex Stepanovich? This guy, first and foremost, has to get healthy. Secondly, he's got to learn technique...he's prone to lunging and coming out of his stance too soon. If he ever learns to get off the ball and roll his hips into his blocks, he could make some noise. Otherwise, he's just a body in there.

Nick Leckey is a more solid technician at the center position. He's a smart and fiesty competitor...and he understands leverege. He's undersized...and is too small to play guard. But, he showed enough at center last year to make me believe that he has a future there. He may never be an All-Pro...but his solid play can anchor and galvanize the line, particularly in pass protection. The pass protection was stronger with him at center last year. His snaps were crisper and line was getting off the snaps in greater unison.

Leonard Davis is a solid left tackle...when he's not jumping the snap. He's strong in pass protection and can swallow up defensive ends...but, in run blocking, he's outquicked on the edge and often doesn't know what to do when his man skirts around him. Hopefully, Loney will teach him to react quicker, punch and toss squirmy DEs aside and get downfield faster. What's tantalizing is that Davis could be rooting out DTs with regular success from the guard position...made all the more tantalizing when no guard on the team can. Adding Milford Brown may take some of this sting away...but until the Cardinals add another guard who actually can run block on the interior...the thought of Davis manhandling a DT will be difficult to ignore...especially if Edge is getting smashed on the handoffs the way Emmitt, Marcel and JJ have been these past two years.

Oliver Ross was supposed to be a right tackle with a mean streak. Did anyone see anything remotely mean about him last year? He played just as soft as Anthony Clement...only Clement was a much better pass protector. Ross isn't athletic enough to play RT consistently well in the NFL. He's a leaner and is easy to tilt...which disrupts his feet and his balance and the next thing one knows his man has blown by him. There was nothing about his play last year that would suggest he should ever play another snap at RT for the Cardinals.

Can Loney coach Ross up? Will we see a different Ross?

There has been talk on the board about shifting Ross to guard. At his salary and at this point in his career, such a shift may be a waste of time.

Dennis Green seems to think that adding Milford Brown and drafting an o-lineman will do the trick. Last year he thought the same thing after he added Oliver Ross...Ross and a draft pick...that'll do it.

Ross wasn't exactly a proven commodity. And is it wise to count on rookies?

Milford Brown isn't a proven commodity.

What gives?

How and why Dennis Green doesn't have a more aggressive plan to upgrade the talent on this o-line is about as mind boggling...well, as keeping Reggie "Why Run Hard...I Might Get Hurt" Swinton.
 
Last edited:
OP
OP
Mitch

Mitch

Crawled Through 5 FB Fields
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Posts
13,405
Reaction score
2,982
Location
Wrentham, MA
What could Green do?

Two moves:

1. Do whatever it takes to sign RT Jon Runyan.

2. Take the 5/$17M the team would have to match on the Bills' offer to Reggie Wells and offer it to the Jaguars' G Vince Manuwai...yeah, he's a RFA and it would cost the Cardinals their 3rd round pick...but, Manuwai's better than any guard in this draft...and already is one of the better guards in the league...OR...how about going after UFA G Stephen Neal of the Patriots? Neal is super strong...a tad injury prone...but, hey the Cards may get lucky.

Note: the NFL is starting to figure out that guard play is the key to winning football games...look at the Packers...a playoff team two years ago, they lose both their guards to free agency...and then plummet to a four win season...

Look at the guards who played in this year's Super Bowl...like Faneca and Hutchinson...and now Hutch is offered 7/$49M...obviously the Vikings get it.
 

JeffGollin

ASFN Icon
Joined
May 14, 2002
Posts
20,472
Reaction score
3,056
Location
Holmdel, NJ
Roger that, Mitch.

Perhaps one of the reasons Rod and Dennis haven't moved faster is that they wanted to see what their cap options would be once Wells' value was nailed down.

And now for a little bit of heresy. Despite what I hear from the coaching staff and the media, I haven't been all that impressed with Reggie Wells' run blocking since we drafted him. I've felt his one redeeming feature has been pass blocking potential (& that he might be better suited playing on the outside at LT). We must be become obsessed about straightening out our running attack.

If not signing Wells means we can afford to sign Runyon (and can make that happen), I'd let Reggie go.
 

Cards Czar

The Bird is the Word
Joined
May 14, 2002
Posts
3,171
Reaction score
370
Location
Alton, Ill
Mitch love you view on the OL . I wish once and for all they would consentrate on just the OL for now. As you stated we should go for some of the players that are RFA's I say YES do it. So what if it costs us a draft pick. If the player you are targeting is better then the palyer you are targeting at that draft position you just do it. We have the funds and its about time we take it to some of these other teams. He is my list that we should also take a look at.

OT

1. Jon Runyan OT Phi UFA
2. Tom Ashworth OT ME UFA
3. Jordan Black OT KC RFA Cost us a 5th rounder
4. Kenyatta Walker OT TB UFA


OG

1. Vince Manuwai Jax RFA Cost us a 3rd Rounder
2. Stephen Neal NE UFA
3. Derrick Dockery Wash RFA Cost us a 1st Rounder
4. Kris Dielman SD RFA Cost us a 1st Rounder
5. Tutan Reyes CAR UFA
6. Montrae Holland RFA NO Cost us a 4th Rounder

Navy Mike
 
Last edited:

jefftheshark

Drive By Poster
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2004
Posts
5,067
Reaction score
520
Location
Viva Las Vegas!
Wow, I am in total agreement. Especially about Vince Manuwai, the RFA. I went to the Jag's site and saw that he was tendered, but it did not say high, low or middle.

I am not so sure that with the perceived depth of the draft this year, that DG and Loney weren't playing poker with the "Wells was our best lineman" act. They might have put that out there to lure someone into taking him off of our hands. Of course, if we re-sign him by matching the Bill's high number, then DG was responsible for driving up the price, and that was just stupid.

The Shark
 

Shogun

Never doubt Mitch. EVER.
Joined
Dec 12, 2005
Posts
4,072
Reaction score
1
Milford wasn't retained because he's a mauler and doesn't fit Kubiak's/Denver's zone blocking scheme that fits more undersized linemen.
 

joeshmo

Kangol Hat Aficionado
Joined
Feb 23, 2004
Posts
17,247
Reaction score
1
Mitch said:
Talent and production-wise the Seahawks are stronger at DT, LDE, WLB, LCB

Wrong on all 4 accounts IMO.

DT - Bernard may be better then Dockett but Darby or Tubbs are not better then Clancy.

LDE - Fisher is not better then Okeafer. Okeafer has 4 more tackles, 1 more forced fumble, 4 more tackles for loss, and only 1.5 sacks less then Fisher. Okeafer also has a lower YPC to his Left end area then Fisher as well.

WLB - People may not like Huff, but he is without a doubt better then DD Lewis. It isnt even close. DD Lewis - 64 TAckles, 1 Sack, 1 TFL, 1 FF, 1 PD. Huff - 69 Tackles, 1 Sack, 9 TFL, 1 FF, 1 INT, 3 PD's.

LCB - Kelly Herndon, the guy did not have a good year last year. Rolle is the better Talent and Green almost had just as much production as Herndon. Favor - Cards.

As for the most of the post besides that, no one can disagree.
 

Goodyear Card

Link Guy
Joined
Mar 4, 2006
Posts
2,069
Reaction score
1,638
Mitch,

I am also sadly disappointed with the lack of signings for free agent lineman. You can not be happy the with any of the OL from last year. They all had problems. Maybe it was injuries or coaching. Maybe not. I really wanted a proven center and guard signed in free agency. The lack of free agent signings is one reason a would like to trade down in the first round. With a lower first round pick and two second round picks we could have the #1 center and guard in the draft. It may not help this year but it could help for many years in the future.

Something needs to be done about Big's contract. He is certainly not worth $7 million dollars.
 

Toro

Registered
Joined
Feb 21, 2004
Posts
1,044
Reaction score
0
L. Davis was an alternate for the Pro Bowl.

LT do not come cheap.
 

TheCardFan

Things have changed.
Joined
May 14, 2002
Posts
12,091
Reaction score
14,746
Location
Charlotte
Preach Faux Pas said:
Milford wasn't retained because he's a mauler and doesn't fit Kubiak's/Denver's zone blocking scheme that fits more undersized linemen.

Very true.

Also, I really don't think Hasselbeck is a better QB than Warner.

Sorry...
 

ajcardfan

I see you.
Moderator
Supporting Member
Joined
May 13, 2002
Posts
37,907
Reaction score
23,868
Toro said:
L. Davis was an alternate for the Pro Bowl.

LT do not come cheap.

Yes, but there is really no reason, at all, for his cap hit to be 7.9mil. Heck, all you have to do is convert a bunch of his salary into guaranteed bonus money. The Cards can EASILY clear 3+ mil in cap space that way.
 

joeshmo

Kangol Hat Aficionado
Joined
Feb 23, 2004
Posts
17,247
Reaction score
1
ajcardfan said:
Yes, but there is really no reason, at all, for his cap hit to be 7.9mil. Heck, all you have to do is convert a bunch of his salary into guaranteed bonus money. The Cards can EASILY clear 3+ mil in cap space that way.

That would do nothing to his cap hit since this is the last year of his deal anyways, so the bonus money wouldnt pro rate over anything.

The only way to lower his cap hit is to give him an extension.
 

ajcardfan

I see you.
Moderator
Supporting Member
Joined
May 13, 2002
Posts
37,907
Reaction score
23,868
Green will rise or fall based on the success of the o-line this season. I think they are putting a lot of faith into the new guy, Loney. I'm sure a big part of the interview process was having the candidates explain what they could do with the guys already on the roster. I'm guessing the main reason Loney got the job is that he said he could get this unit to play well without major personnel turnover.


Look at it this way, Mitch. You can't lose. They either play much better and we have a good season, or, they stink and you get to post a bunch of "I-told-you-so's."
 

ajcardfan

I see you.
Moderator
Supporting Member
Joined
May 13, 2002
Posts
37,907
Reaction score
23,868
joeshmo said:
That would do nothing to his cap hit since this is the last year of his deal anyways, so the bonus money wouldnt pro rate over anything.

The only way to lower his cap hit is to give him an extension.

I thought he had one year left after this one. So, okay, it won't be easy to clear cap space if it's the last year of his deal.
 

Skkorpion

Grey haired old Bird
LEGACY MEMBER
Supporting Member
Joined
May 9, 2002
Posts
11,026
Reaction score
5
Location
Sun City, AZ
Completely disagree with everything Mitch wrote. Injuries, youth, and bad coaching killed our oline last year.

I'd rather keep Reggie Wells than sign any of the run-down losers still left on the market.
 
OP
OP
Mitch

Mitch

Crawled Through 5 FB Fields
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Posts
13,405
Reaction score
2,982
Location
Wrentham, MA
All the more power to you, Skkorp, if you think that keeping this current talent base together on the offensive line will solve the problems. How many years of excuses do we give these below average players and the coaches?

Right now: here's the probable starting lineup if the team re-signs Wells as you suggest:

LT Davis

LG Wells

C Stepanovich/Leckey

RG M. Brown

RT Ross

I guess you're OK with it, Skkorp. Well, you are not alone, because so is Dennis Green, obviously.
 

CardinalChris

Big Man Himself
Joined
Jul 11, 2002
Posts
3,929
Reaction score
0
Location
Fresno, CA
Mitch said:
All the more power to you, Skkorp, if you think that keeping this current talent base together on the offensive line will solve the problems. How many years of excuses do we give these below average players and the coaches?

Right now: here's the probable starting lineup if the team re-signs Wells as you suggest:

LT Davis

LG Wells

C Stepanovich/Leckey

RG M. Brown

RT Ross

I guess you're OK with it, Skkorp. Well, you are not alone, because so is Dennis Green, obviously.

Sure, we need more talent, but we shouldn't let players go. Obviously Wells is worth something if Buffalo signed him. We should add to the talent on the line, not let players go. Didn't the O-line purge of 2004 show that you don't let players go without a replacement.
 

jefftheshark

Drive By Poster
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2004
Posts
5,067
Reaction score
520
Location
Viva Las Vegas!
Mitch, DG stated on the NFL Network a couple of nights ago that they were still looking at aquiring another FA OL, and that they would probably further address the OL the first day of the draft. That doesn't qualify for being satisfied.

Since most, if not all, of the viable OL FA's are gone now, my thought is that they were going to go the RFA route the whole time, since it does not have the same time constraints as UFA's.

I really like the Manuwai idea (much better long term than Runyan).

The Shark
 
OP
OP
Mitch

Mitch

Crawled Through 5 FB Fields
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Posts
13,405
Reaction score
2,982
Location
Wrentham, MA
I hope you are right, Jeff. Ever since Green signed Edge, he's been asked by every reporter what he intends to do with the league's worst offensive line...Green has to say something. Yet, why haven't any free agents been scheduled for a visit?

Yes, a player will be added in the draft. But this was my point. Green thought all would be OK after he merely signed Ross and drated Brown last year. Looks like he's thinking the same with Milford Brown and a draft pick.
 

TheCardFan

Things have changed.
Joined
May 14, 2002
Posts
12,091
Reaction score
14,746
Location
Charlotte
Mitch said:
LT Davis
LG Wells
C Stepanovich/Leckey
RG M. Brown
RT Ross

I think at this point...it's more likey:

LT Davis
LG Brown
C Step/Leckey
RG Brown
RT Ross/FA
 

Shane

Comin for you!
Super Moderator
Moderator
Supporting Member
Joined
May 13, 2002
Posts
67,764
Reaction score
35,569
Location
Las Vegas
MaoTosiFanClub said:
Another "Mitch" masterpiece...:rolleyes:

Wow that was an insightful rebuttal. :roll:



Great take Mitch! :thumbup:
 

red desert

ASFN Addict
Joined
Mar 4, 2003
Posts
6,221
Reaction score
0
Location
A.B.Q. in da house
ajcardfan said:
Look at it this way, Mitch. You can't lose. They either play much better and we have a good season, or, they stink and you get to post a bunch of "I-told-you-so's."

I think I can speak for Mitch on this one.

He, Mitch, like all of us, just wants the Cardinals to win. He could care less about your adolescent "I told you so's."

By the way, great post Walter. Although, I do agree with Joeshmo on the Cardinals being better than the hawks at several more positions than you state.
 

Staff online

Forum statistics

Threads
547,357
Posts
5,350,713
Members
6,303
Latest member
Sunchaser
Top