The Offensive Line Problem

[ajcardfan]

People should remember that Oliver Ross was part of the best offensive line in football the year before we signed him. One that led the league in rushing. So, yes, we have the talent to be much better than we showed on the field last season
Who was it who said: "Talent is where potential and production intersect?" (Oh yeah, I remember. It was me. Right now).

At some point you have to fold a player's body of work into that big package of negatives and positives that make up the entire player. Intangibles such as brains (i.e. ability to know the snap count), concentration (see "brains"), and commitment have to be factored in as well.

Granted, Ross came from a quality program and had a reputation for being a "road grader", but last year (a) he repeatedly was flagged for false starts, (b) apparently lacked the feet to forestall quicker pass rushers and (c) was the "star" of an offensive line that enabled our runners to average just 71 yards per game.

My nightmare next year is the spectacle of Edgerrin James repeatedly running right into the butts of Ross & Brown deep in his own backfield before he can even get started. (It's become an ingrained part of the personality of the Cardinal personality on offense - and we've got to make whatever changes are necessary to break this cycle).

Yes, Ross was subpar last year. And, yes, he, and the rest of the line needs to be much better. But, he did not prevent the Steelers from making the playoffs when he started.

 

[BigDavis75]

Yes, Ross was subpar last year. And, yes, he, and the rest of the line needs to be much better. But, he did not prevent the Steelers from making the playoffs when he started.

Ross was a still only a decent player with the Stelelers. Players like Duane Clemons continually beat him in pass protection.

 

[john h]

mitch, well written

I think Mitch nailed that one. We made our big splash but can we swim? We got to go get a couple of OL at the bare minimum if we hope to make the playoffs. Now not June cuts.

 

[john h]

Hopefully Loney can fix this OLine.

You can put lipstick on a pig but he is still a pig. We need help. I thought everyone was in agreement on that when the season ended as we had one of the two worst OL in the NFL. Changing the coach may help some but it want help enough to make you a playoff contender. That seems clear to me. Then what do I know.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

I think Mitch nailed that one. We made our big splash but can we swim? We got to go get a couple of OL at the bare minimum if we hope to make the playoffs. Now not June cuts.

Historically speaking, offensive lines are re-built by adding only a player or two and changing coaching/scheme. Massive overhaul of expensive players as Mitch suggests are expensive and have shown to not work as predicted.

 

[john h]

I disagree somewhat, Jeff. Talent wise, I would say the line is in the top half of the NFL.

We have seen lines all around the NFL with less talent perform better because of things like coaching and continuity. Staying healthy and Loney (hopefully) coaching up our guys is going to play a significant role in how the line performs this year.

I think it is a far reach to say we had an OL that was in the top half of the NFL last year. Having the worst running game in the NFL would sort of be a strong indicator. Personally I think we had the worst OL in the NFL or at least tied with Houston. Blame it on the coach but 90% of the blame goes to the guys on the field. I am frankly amazed that we have done so little to improve this line. Green it appears to me is digging his own Grave unless he comes up with a miracle cure. I am sure the owners are asking him about his OL and I would sure like to hear what his answers are. Why does he not just step up and tell the public "We have an OL that will get us to the playoffs"? Then we know where he stands and where he is coming from.

 

[john h]

It's good to hear that people like Redsz are finally coming around to what I've been saying for the past three months. I'd remind those hating on the "talentless" Cardinal offensive line that we have the #1 rated LT in the 2000 draft class, the #3 rated Center in the 2004 draft class, and a free agent ORT that was pretty well regarded before last season, and the #1 rated ORG in the 2005 draft. If these guys were all misses, the fault can't only be laid at the Arizona Cardinal scouting department, but I have a hard time believing that everyone in the NFL was wrong about these guys, and L.J. Shelton, and Anthony Clement, etc., etc.

Skkorp's right that last year's problems with the O-line began in camp when no one was able to work together. It's impossible to say what the Cards' have to work with along the offensive line based on last season, because there was no continuity. The same personnel could easily look twice as good with a training camp under their collective belts.

The fact remains (which has never been properly refuted by the bonus-baby offensive line theorists on this board like Shane and Jeff G) that the most important factors in offensive line success in the NFL remain, in order:

1. Coaching/scheme
2. Continuity
3. Talent

The Cardinals have been going about building the offensive line in the wrong direction for nearly a decade now. I don't know why it's been so hard for people on this board to figure out that plugging in two- or three- fifths of the offensive line personnel every offseason hasn't been working.

I would never put Coaching ahead of Talent in any sport. RB's for instance are born to run and all the coaching in the world will not make a mediocre RB an all pro. Lineman can improve with coaching and experience but you have to have the raw talent to start with. You will never coach a mediocre player up to an all pro. You cannot coach speed, strength, vision, intelligence, and smarts and the will to succeed. You can teach technique and form a game plan but not much more. Would I trade the best Coach in the NFL for the best QB in the NFL. I do not think so.

 

[Cards Czar]

Well here is a list of OT, OG and C, FA's that are still out there. Anyone of these players are better then any of our backup and maybe some starters. We really need to at least get 1-2 more players.

OT

1. Jon Ruyan ROT Phil UFA
2. Tom Ashworth ROT ME UFA
3. Jordan Black ROT KC RFA will cost us at least a 5th rounder
4. Kenyatta Walker ROT TB UFA

OG

1. Vince Manuwai Jax LOG RFA will only cost us a 3rd rounder
2. Stephen Neal ROG NE UFA
3. Derrick Dockery LOG Wash RFA would cost us a 1st rounder
4. Kris Dielman LOG SD RFA would cost us a 1st rounder
5. Tutan Reyes ROG Car UFA


C

1. Mike Flanagan C GB UFA
2. Jeff Mitchell C Car UFA
3. Trey Teague C Buff UFA
4. Melvin Flower C Minn UFA


As per Joeshmo we have about 8 mil left. Let spend up to the cap and then worry about cutting players later. We could easley cut the fat (3-4 players) and get another 2-3 mil. Here is who I want.

1. Vince Manuwai. He is an upgrade to any OG on our board and it costs us only a 3rd. There is not a 3 rounder that could match up with him.

2. Tom Ashworth. He is an up and comming OT and just needs playing time. He could push Ross for the starting RT spot and if not he could be the #1 back up OT. He can also slide over and play LT.

3. Jeff Mitchell. Has experence at the C position and was named there Capt last year. He is also an upgrade over our 2 young Centers and they could learn from him.



Dont beat me up to bad but this is just my opinion.



Navy Mike

 

[jefftheshark]

1. Vince Manuwai. He is an upgrade to any OG on our board and it costs us only a 3rd. There is not a 3 rounder that could match up with him.

2. Tom Ashworth. He is an up and comming OT and just needs playing time. He could push Ross for the starting RT spot and if not he could be the #1 back up OT. He can also slide over and play LT.

3. Jeff Mitchell. Has experence at the C position and was named there Capt last year. He is also an upgrade over our 2 young Centers and they could learn from him.

Dont beat me up to bad but this is just my opinion.



Navy Mike

Why beat you up, you're right. And thanks for putting together the list of remaining FA's.

The Shark

 

[Goodyear Card]

Good Post navy Mike

We need line men. I just don't know if we could afford them. Of course for the price of Davis we could sign two lineman and sign another lineman with by cutting some other players. We have ways to find money to sign players. We can get some help in the draft but it is always risky to expect rookies to start immediately.

 

[WildBB]

Exellent post, K9!

I agree, that there are problems along the OL, but signing a bunch of these over-the-hill players isn't the solution to all problems. A couple of points I would like to make...

You can't buy continuity. No matter how many veteran players you bring in, it will not automaticly bring continuity and chemistry to the OL, which is more important than the marginal improvement in talent that Runyan might bring over Ross. No matter, who gets signed, it'll take time to develop contiunity with new players.

Alot of posters here don't like the idea of using the draft to improve the OL, because rookies take time to develop. True, but that time varies a lot from player to player. Elton wasn't ready from day one, but Mankins was. Wasn't BIG just awesome as RG in his rookie season? I just don't put that much into the development time, because veterans on the OL take time to develop, too. Maybe not as much, but I simply do not understand why you would say no to an improvement in overall talent. I would take a McNeil over Runyan anyday, because what if McNeil is ready or just 80% ready from day one. Isn't that still an improvement over Runyan?

And while we're at the rookies... Everybody's saying that rookies time to develop, and yet Elton gets written off. Why? This guy rated out at the same level as Jean-Gilles is rated this year. Give the man a chance! He needed time to develop, and had 5 different guys playing next to him during the season. That doesn't make the job easier.

Don't get me wrong. I would love to se us sign a veteran guy, but at this point I think we are kiidding ourselves if we think that one of these veteran guys with bring more than awsome depth. Runyan might be able to beat out Ross, but overall it will not be a huge improvement in the OL's production.

Excellent post Bach - I couldn't agree more.

 

[Redsz]

I think it is a far reach to say we had an OL that was in the top half of the NFL last year.

I said they are in the top half of the NFL based on talent. Not production. I have said over and over again that this line has not produced and dramitically underachieved.

Having the worst running game in the NFL would sort of be a strong indicator. Personally I think we had the worst OL in the NFL or at least tied with Houston.

There where a number of teams who could not run or pass block. SF to name one. This line was above average in pass blocking so it can't be labled the worst in the NFL based on that.

Blame it on the coach but 90% of the blame goes to the guys on the field.

Yet, when it comes to the head coach that doesn't apply does it? When it comes to this team, 90% of the blame seems to fall on Coach Green around here rather than the players.

I really can't believe you discount what impact coaching has. The difference between Loney and Lindsey is light and day. And the Patriots have proven three times already what impact coaching and scheme has in the NFL.

 

[AntSports Steve]

This year is should be the Cards best shot at winning in a long, long time. I don't think the Cards should risk their season hoping the the OL improves.

They fixed the coaching situation, now they should also upgrade the player situation. Just fixing one is not enough, they need to upgrade both.

 

[spanky1]

This year is should be the Cards best shot at winning in a long, long time. I don't think the Cards should risk their season hoping the the OL improves.

They fixed the coaching situation, now they should also upgrade the player situation. Just fixing one is not enough, they need to upgrade both.

The only O-Lineman out there worth serious consideration is Vince Manuwai and he is an RFA.....I'm not prepared to give up our #71 pick for him when we have budding talent in Wells, Elton Brown and Milford Brown. The 3rd round pick could yield us Andrew Whitworth as an RT to groom to replace Ross in the short term.

Wells could very well be our next Center for all we know.....his versatility is worth us keeping him.

 

[BigDavis75]

The only O-Lineman out there worth serious consideration is Vince Manuwai and he is an RFA.....I'm not prepared to give up our #71 pick for him when we have budding talent in Wells, Elton Brown and Milford Brown. The 3rd round pick could yield us Andrew Whitworth as an RT to groom to replace Ross in the short term.

Wells could very well be our next Center for all we know.....his versatility is worth us keeping him.

Good Post.

Whitworth would be a steal in the third.

 

[lobo]

interesting how everyone is in such agreement on the OL subject...parcells again pulled a smart move signing fabini...as most of the teams that met the test of time...a good long term plan...fabini is not a long term answer BUT finding guys who have been around the OL block is the answer....look at denver as an example...their "system" is centered around blocking schemes if anyone watched them over the years...that is how they can put literally anyone in the backfield and be successful...let's just hope somebody/somewhere who makes the decisions shares our overall point of view.

 

[BigDavis75]

interesting how everyone is in such agreement on the OL subject...parcells again pulled a smart move signing fabini...as most of the teams that met the test of time...a good long term plan...fabini is not a long term answer BUT finding guys who have been around the OL block is the answer....look at denver as an example...their "system" is centered around blocking schemes if anyone watched them over the years...that is how they can put literally anyone in the backfield and be successful...let's just hope somebody/somewhere who makes the decisions shares our overall point of view.

Dallas is in serious trouble with their O-Line IMO. Hear me out on this one.

- Fabini, Allen, and Rivera are very old
- Fabini and Flozell Adams are coming off injuries
- Their RT, Pettite sp?, did not do very well last year
- They signed another G for a nice chunk of change, Kosier, and he is not that good
- Really the only guys they have for a couple good years are Al Johnson and Torrin Tucker

 

[Arizona's Finest]

It's good to hear that people like Redsz are finally coming around to what I've been saying for the past three months. I'd remind those hating on the "talentless" Cardinal offensive line that we have the #1 rated LT in the 2000 draft class, the #3 rated Center in the 2004 draft class, and a free agent ORT that was pretty well regarded before last season, and the #1 rated ORG in the 2005 draft. If these guys were all misses, the fault can't only be laid at the Arizona Cardinal scouting department, but I have a hard time believing that everyone in the NFL was wrong about these guys, and L.J. Shelton, and Anthony Clement, etc., etc.

Skkorp's right that last year's problems with the O-line began in camp when no one was able to work together. It's impossible to say what the Cards' have to work with along the offensive line based on last season, because there was no continuity. The same personnel could easily look twice as good with a training camp under their collective belts.

The fact remains (which has never been properly refuted by the bonus-baby offensive line theorists on this board like Shane and Jeff G) that the most important factors in offensive line success in the NFL remain, in order:

1. Coaching/scheme
2. Continuity
3. Talent

The Cardinals have been going about building the offensive line in the wrong direction for nearly a decade now. I don't know why it's been so hard for people on this board to figure out that plugging in two- or three- fifths of the offensive line personnel every offseason hasn't been working.

Heres the point:

While all of that maybe true, why don't we do what most good teams and mitigate the risk by signing a couple other guys to compete and/or provide depth.

For too long we have allowed inaccurate opinions of our own teams actual talent and subsequent performance to un-do any progress we have made in other areas if our team. I don't want to see that again. I don't mind if we spend an inordianate amount of money in signing runyan, getting manuei(sp?) and drafting a guy in the second round. It's that important and requires that much attention.

Lets get a bunch of guys who can fight it out and let the cream rise to the top. Thats what we are paying Loney for anyway.......

 

[Duckjake]

Lets get a bunch of guys who can fight it out and let the cream rise to the top. Thats what we are paying Loney for anyway.......

I'd like to see us get a bunch of guys who can actually block as one straight line instead of 5 tangents. I swear most of the time our OLine looked like everyone of them heard a different line call.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

I'd like to see us get a bunch of guys who can actually block as one straight line instead of 5 tangents. I swear most of the time our OLine looked like everyone of them heard a different line call.

That's what happens when you play rookies,newcomers(Ross),and have a revolving door at the C position.

 

[joeshmo]

That's what happens when you play rookies,newcomers(Ross),and have a revolving door at the C position.

And players playing Lazy. Lazy was our new OL coaches one word to describe the OL he watched on his film review.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Very true.

Also, I really don't think Hasselbeck is a better QB than Warner.

Sorry...

wow, then you just think wrong.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I do agree with Joeshmo on the Cardinals being better than the hawks at several more positions than you state.

i love you guys. if you were right we wouldn't be picking 10th or better every year. i mean, according to y'all we're pretty evenly talented as the seahawks, a superbowl team!

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Talent wise, I would say the line is in the top half of the NFL.

what in the world do you base that comment upon? certainly not performance. if it's based on potential, well, big was a high first round pick and the rest? wells - undrafted, brown - 3rd round, brown - 6th round, step - 4th round, ross- just bad. talent? again, how did you determine your ranking?

 

[Redsz]

what in the world do you base that comment upon? certainly not performance. if it's based on potential, well, big was a high first round pick and the rest? wells - undrafted, brown - 3rd round, brown - 6th round, step - 4th round, ross- just bad. talent? again, how did you determine your ranking?

Talent doesn't equal performance. The Patriots line is less talented than the Cardinals. But they perform better because of a number of different factors already discussed in this thread (coaching, continuity, scheme etc).

Not one player on that line is as talented as Leonard Davis or Elton Brown - both of whom where rated among the top of their postion when they entered the draft. So I don't think it is so crazy to think that they are in the top half of the NFL in terms of talent.