The Offensive Line Problem

[Mitch]

Thanks Red Desert...and thanks Joe, you make some good points, although, IMO, Dockett was not effective last year, Huff was a headcase and the Cardinal LCBs struggled most of the year.

 

[boisesuns]

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He could help

 

[red desert]

And another thing...

You taking note of what is going on in Seattle? They are looking at signing the likes of Peterson and Abraham, although realistically they might only be able to sign one of those two. Still, we are going to need a line that protect Warner against these guys. And Edge can only help so much.

I'd like Runyan AND Mauwua (sp?) from Jacksonville.

 

[jefftheshark]

Thanks Red Desert...and thanks Joe, you make some good points, although, IMO, Dockett was not effective last year, Huff was a headcase and the Cardinal LCBs struggled most of the year.

I am willing to wait and see how Dockett plays next to either Clancy or Ngata before I write him off. CP stated that he was being asked to do things that did not play to his strength when Davis went down.

All in all, we had a top 10 ranked D, so most of these comments are nit-picking. It was special teams, a new OC & QB, and injuries that caused most of the problems last year. Hopefully, they should be better than their record of last year would suggest.

The Shark

 

[Renz]

Thanks Red Desert...and thanks Joe, you make some good points, although, IMO, Dockett was not effective last year, Huff was a headcase and the Cardinal LCBs struggled most of the year.

Huff has been made a scapegoat IMO. As maligned as he was last season, he still finished 4th on the team in tackles with 87 (65 unassisted). He also had 1 sack, 1 INT and 1 forced fumble.

As for Huff being a "headcase", I'm not sure what that comment was about. Huff was never any kind of disciplinary problem that I recall.

I also agree with Jeff about Dockett. I think he will have a big year if both he and Clancy stay healthy.

 

[ajcardfan]

I think I can speak for Mitch on this one.

He, Mitch, like all of us, just wants the Cardinals to win. He could care less about your adolescent "I told you so's."

By the way, great post Walter. Although, I do agree with Joeshmo on the Cardinals being better than the hawks at several more positions than you state.

I know Mitch wants the Cards to win above all.

I also know that Mitch has never failed to point out (after almost every loss under Green) how Green's demeanor and personnel decisions led to bad football just like he said they would. Mitch wanted Green fired before the team played even one regular season game under him. If we have a third straight bad season under Green and he is fired, Mitch has every right to say "I told you so" and I don't think it would be adolescent behavior at all.

 

[JeffGollin]

Completely disagree with everything Mitch wrote. Injuries, youth, and bad coaching killed our oline last year.
Skkorp - With all due respect, you omitted one other factor.

Mediocre personnel.

This past season we averaged 71-72 yards a game on the ground, breaking the record for fewest ground yards (78] established by the famous Joe Wolf, James Dexter, Matt Joyce cast of characters. And Vince Tobin made the same kind of excuses about those guys back then too.

Injuries, injuries and bad coaching can only carry you so far (albeit in the wrong direction). At some point you have to hold the players themselves accountable and upgrade the cast of characters if for no other reason than "to change the karma."

I don't think either Runyon or Manuwai are retread losers and feel they'd be a distinct improvement from what we've got now.

 

[BigDavis75]

Thanks Red Desert...and thanks Joe, you make some good points, although, IMO, Dockett was not effective last year, Huff was a headcase and the Cardinal LCBs struggled most of the year.

You need to reread Joe's post, he didn't say Dock was better he said that Clancy was better than Tubbs.

Rolle > Herndon

Huff is a headcase? Where do you get this from?

Also, Chike was our best D-Lineman versus the run and he gets almost 0 credit. Fisher dissapeared in big games, I would take Chike any day.

I agree with Joe on all 4 positionals.

 

[BigDavis75]

What could Green do?

Two moves:

1. Do whatever it takes to sign RT Jon Runyan.

2. Take the 5/$17M the team would have to match on the Bills' offer to Reggie Wells and offer it to the Jaguars' G Vince Manuwai...yeah, he's a RFA and it would cost the Cardinals their 3rd round pick...but, Manuwai's better than any guard in this draft...and already is one of the better guards in the league...OR...how about going after UFA G Stephen Neal of the Patriots? Neal is super strong...a tad injury prone...but, hey the Cards may get lucky.

Note: the NFL is starting to figure out that guard play is the key to winning football games...look at the Packers...a playoff team two years ago, they lose both their guards to free agency...and then plummet to a four win season...

Look at the guards who played in this year's Super Bowl...like Faneca and Hutchinson...and now Hutch is offered 7/$49M...obviously the Vikings get it.

What do you mean by do whatever it takes? What contract specifically? He is 32 years old and is not known as a good pass protector. Also, as much as I like him, he is just another old stopgap at RT.

I really like Manuwai, I brought up his name several months ago as a possible option. He played on a good JAX line the last couple years but I don't know if he'll do as well with a lesser signal-caller at C. He would be an excellent pick-up though.

 

[Redsz]

Mediocre personnel.

I disagree somewhat, Jeff. Talent wise, I would say the line is in the top half of the NFL.

We have seen lines all around the NFL with less talent perform better because of things like coaching and continuity. Staying healthy and Loney (hopefully) coaching up our guys is going to play a significant role in how the line performs this year.

 

[Shane]

I disagree somewhat, Jeff. Talent wise, I would say the line is in the top half of the NFL.

We have seen lines all around the NFL with less talent perform better because of things like coaching and continuity. Staying healthy and Loney (hopefully) coaching up our guys is going to play a significant role in how the line performs this year.

Sorry but to say what you said above is a complete and utter joke IMO. If you went down the list of starting NFL lineman and compared them to teh CArdinals OL across the board there is no way in heck outside of LD would the other 4 line-up in the top 1/2 of the NFL.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

What do you mean by do whatever it takes? What contract specifically? He is 32 years old and is not known as a good pass protector. Also, as much as I like him, he is just another old stopgap at RT.

I really like Manuwai, I brought up his name several months ago as a possible option. He played on a good JAX line the last couple years but I don't know if he'll do as well with a lesser signal-caller at C. He would be an excellent pick-up though.

Yea, i don't understand the lovefest with JOn Runyan.The guy is a journeyman OL. All he is known for is getting abused by Strahan and other pass rushing DE's. Why sink money into an aging, unwanted RT that has never been a doninating player.

Also, how can anyone argue that injuries didn't have a MAJOR impact on the OL. Look at the improvement in the DL since Joe Greene left. The new coach wil have a positive impact,along with staying healthy. Add another OL for depth and draft a guy on day 1 and i'll be satisfied to see what this group can do next year. Plus, on the NFL network last night,Tyoka Jackson was saying that James will improve the OL play just because they don't need to hold their blocks as long. Bryce Fisher also was obviously talking about Arrington when he was saying that Cards RB's went down awfully easy and that no one in the league was going arm-tackle Edge.

 

[WildBB]

Yea, i don't understand the lovefest with JOn Runyan.The guy is a journeyman OL. All he is known for is getting abused by Strahan and other pass rushing DE's. Why sink money into an aging, unwanted RT that has never been a doninating player.

Also, how can anyone argue that injuries didn't have a MAJOR impact on the OL. Look at the improvement in the DL since Joe Greene left. The new coach wil have a positive impact,along with staying healthy. Add another OL for depth and draft a guy on day 1 and i'll be satisfied to see what this group can do next year. Plus, on the NFL network last night,Tyoka Jackson was saying that James will improve the OL play just because they don't need to hold their blocks as long. Bryce Fisher also was obviously talking about Arrington when he was saying that Cards RB's went down awfully easy and that no one in the league was going arm-tackle Edge.

I agree - Runyan isn't much of an upgrade and won't get any better.

Harry what is your take on Winston Justice and putting him at LT, Big at LG, Milford/Ross at RG, and Wells at RT. That would seem to be our best option (of course if Justice is avail.). Keep Wells, shift to RT, Move Big and Ross to OG like you suggest, draft Winston Justice. Maybe in the 2nd we'll get lucky and find Mangold and draft him. We'd have a glut of Centers though.

How is Stepanovich progressing? Is his injury a habitual kind?

 

[Redsz]

Sorry but to say what you said above is a complete and utter joke IMO. If you went down the list of starting NFL lineman and compared them to teh CArdinals OL across the board there is no way in heck outside of LD would the other 4 line-up in the top 1/2 of the NFL.

Your confusing talent with performance.

How is it that teams like the Patriots, Colts, Broncos and various other teams scrape the barrel with late round draft picks, UDFA's and nobodys but perform so much better than the Cardinals on the offensive line? Two words: coaching and scheme.

I would say that Leonard Davis, Elton Brown and even Milford Brown are more talented and physically gifted than alot of other linemen in the NFL. Based on that, it would consitute them being in the top half of the NFL in terms of TALENT. Not production, not performane, but raw talent and physical potential. And now hopeffuly with a legit line coach we will get somewhere with this group.

 

[Shane]

Your confusing talent with performance.

How is it that teams like the Patriots, Colts, Broncos and various other teams scrape the barrel with late round draft picks, UDFA's and nobodys but perform so much better than the Cardinals on the offensive line? Two words: coaching and scheme.

I would say that Leonard Davis, Elton Brown and even Milford Brown are more talented and physically gifted than alot of other linemen in the NFL. Based on that, it would consitute them being in the top half of the NFL in terms of TALENT. Not production, not performane, but raw talent and physical potential. And now hopeffuly with a legit line coach we will get somewhere with this group.

Your confusing size and stength with talent. Just because a guy is big and strong in no way means that he's talented. The Pats, Colts, Broncos, etc.. not only have good coaches they obviously have great talent scouts and evaluators. I for one will take talent over coaching any day. IMO talent wins out more often then not. Obviously you dont agree.

I watche dthe OL game after game and saw no talent. Outside of LD who is merely average.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Mitch's post is not particularly "anti-green", and if you focus on it's main point, then it's got some merit.

I mean, is anybody really confident about our oline this year?

somebody said that Ross played better in the 2nd half of the season?

Man, I held my breath everytime I watch him block on a pass play. He never stoned the DE, and about 70% of the time he was half-a-second away from giving up sack. Big was a barbed-wire fortress compared to Ross.

Maybe he was hurt, and that was the problem. But I'm going to go on the record as saying that starting him at RT hurts our chances of getting to the playoffs.

Big O, if you're reading this baby, prove me wrong! Get out there and get medieval on somebody!

 

[WildBB]

Big O, if you're reading this baby, prove me wrong! Get out there and get medieval on somebody!

That's what I'm talking about.

 

[Redsz]

Your confusing size and stength with talent. Just because a guy is big and strong in no way means that he's talented.

I never said big and strong = talented. There is more to talent evaluation than that. Do you think Elton Brown and Leonard Davis got such high praise coming out of college just because of their size and strength? Every year you have guys who come out with measurables. But it takes more than measurables to be graded out like BIG and Brown were. Measurables play a part - but they aren't the complete picture.

The Pats, Colts, Broncos, etc.. not only have good coaches they obviously have great talent scouts and evaluators. I for one will take talent over coaching any day. IMO talent wins out more often then not. Obviously you dont agree.

Recent results would say otherwise considering what the Patriots have achieved over the last few years. They would proburbly be the poster child for great schemeing and coaching.

I watche dthe OL game after game and saw no talent. Outside of LD who is merely average.

So Elton Brown who was graded out as one of the best guards coming out of College football suddenly has no talent? That is just ridiculous, Shane.

By you saying that BIG is 'merley average' demonstrates that your again looking at production instead of talent. Leonard Davis has the talent to be the best LT in the NFL. Elton Brown has the talent to be one of the best guards in the NFL. Same with Milford Brown.

If your saying that these guys haven't produced, I would agree completly. But we have guys on this line that are talented enough to be among the best in the NFL. And they would certainly be viewed as a talented unit who has dramitically underachieved over the years.

 

[WildBB]

If your saying that these guys haven't produced, I would agree completly. But we have guys on this line that are talented enough to be among the best in the NFL. And they would certainly be viewed as a talented unit who has dramitically underachieved over the years.

That's for sure. Continuity along the OL is the most important aspect of a football team. With the injuries and the shuffling there's been none. It has to be developed this yr. There is no more room for experimentation there. Get the 5 best - who demonstrate they are day in and day out coming out of camp and put them in the positions they are best suited to. Not according to what their pay scale is - as to where they'll line up.

Green also has to take some responsibility for demolishing this teams continuity along the OL when he first took over. Maybe that was by design a little bit, because he's gotten some very good drafts. But this yr. IT MUST COME TOGETHER.

 

[kerouac9]

It's good to hear that people like Redsz are finally coming around to what I've been saying for the past three months. I'd remind those hating on the "talentless" Cardinal offensive line that we have the #1 rated LT in the 2000 draft class, the #3 rated Center in the 2004 draft class, and a free agent ORT that was pretty well regarded before last season, and the #1 rated ORG in the 2005 draft. If these guys were all misses, the fault can't only be laid at the Arizona Cardinal scouting department, but I have a hard time believing that everyone in the NFL was wrong about these guys, and L.J. Shelton, and Anthony Clement, etc., etc.

Skkorp's right that last year's problems with the O-line began in camp when no one was able to work together. It's impossible to say what the Cards' have to work with along the offensive line based on last season, because there was no continuity. The same personnel could easily look twice as good with a training camp under their collective belts.

The fact remains (which has never been properly refuted by the bonus-baby offensive line theorists on this board like Shane and Jeff G) that the most important factors in offensive line success in the NFL remain, in order:

1. Coaching/scheme
2. Continuity
3. Talent

The Cardinals have been going about building the offensive line in the wrong direction for nearly a decade now. I don't know why it's been so hard for people on this board to figure out that plugging in two- or three- fifths of the offensive line personnel every offseason hasn't been working.

 

[WildBB]

The Cardinals have been going about building the offensive line in the wrong direction for nearly a decade now. I don't know why it's been so hard for people on this board to figure out that plugging in two- or three- fifths of the offensive line personnel every offseason hasn't been working.

The experienced Head Coach should have known that too.

 

[BACH]

It's good to hear that people like Redsz are finally coming around to what I've been saying for the past three months. I'd remind those hating on the "talentless" Cardinal offensive line that we have the #1 rated LT in the 2000 draft class, the #3 rated Center in the 2004 draft class, and a free agent ORT that was pretty well regarded before last season, and the #1 rated ORG in the 2005 draft. If these guys were all misses, the fault can't only be laid at the Arizona Cardinal scouting department, but I have a hard time believing that everyone in the NFL was wrong about these guys, and L.J. Shelton, and Anthony Clement, etc., etc.

Skkorp's right that last year's problems with the O-line began in camp when no one was able to work together. It's impossible to say what the Cards' have to work with along the offensive line based on last season, because there was no continuity. The same personnel could easily look twice as good with a training camp under their collective belts.

The fact remains (which has never been properly refuted by the bonus-baby offensive line theorists on this board like Shane and Jeff G) that the most important factors in offensive line success in the NFL remain, in order:

1. Coaching/scheme
2. Continuity
3. Talent

The Cardinals have been going about building the offensive line in the wrong direction for nearly a decade now. I don't know why it's been so hard for people on this board to figure out that plugging in two- or three- fifths of the offensive line personnel every offseason hasn't been working.

Exellent post, K9!

I agree, that there are problems along the OL, but signing a bunch of these over-the-hill players isn't the solution to all problems. A couple of points I would like to make...

You can't buy continuity. No matter how many veteran players you bring in, it will not automaticly bring continuity and chemistry to the OL, which is more important than the marginal improvement in talent that Runyan might bring over Ross. No matter, who gets signed, it'll take time to develop contiunity with new players.

Alot of posters here don't like the idea of using the draft to improve the OL, because rookies take time to develop. True, but that time varies a lot from player to player. Elton wasn't ready from day one, but Mankins was. Wasn't BIG just awesome as RG in his rookie season? I just don't put that much into the development time, because veterans on the OL take time to develop, too. Maybe not as much, but I simply do not understand why you would say no to an improvement in overall talent. I would take a McNeil over Runyan anyday, because what if McNeil is ready or just 80% ready from day one. Isn't that still an improvement over Runyan?

And while we're at the rookies... Everybody's saying that rookies time to develop, and yet Elton gets written off. Why? This guy rated out at the same level as Jean-Gilles is rated this year. Give the man a chance! He needed time to develop, and had 5 different guys playing next to him during the season. That doesn't make the job easier.

Don't get me wrong. I would love to se us sign a veteran guy, but at this point I think we are kiidding ourselves if we think that one of these veteran guys with bring more than awsome depth. Runyan might be able to beat out Ross, but overall it will not be a huge improvement in the OL's production.

 

[Cardiac]

Why we need to bring in some more Olinemen

1)We don't have a single member on this unit that has proven they can stay healthy for an entire season, especially for a playoff run. Of course injuries can't be predicted but history ignored is history repeated.

2)There simply is not enough quality depth on this unit. Wakefield, Haeyar(sp) and ..... are not the answers.

3)Ross has to have even the biggest koolaide drinkers a little concerned, most of us are down right terrified letting him protect Warner.

So maybe the Brown's prove that they should be starters this year, E Brown also has to stay healthy.

Maybe Ross was just unable to recover enough from his injuries that he wasn't the worst FA signing by the current cardinals regime.

Maybe BIG puts it all together and becomes the dominant LT this team needs, oh and he plays more than 15 games.

Maybe Step gets healthy and builds on a decent rookie year, or Leckey continues to build on his play in the 2nd half of last year and can stay healthy.

Even if the Maybe's all work out then we still don't have much of any depth at OG and OT.

I'm not a proponent of Runyan, he is oldish and never has been strong in pass protection.

We gotta get a prospect at OT and OG this year. I wouldn't be adverse to an upgrade at C either.

Continuity and coaching only work if a majority of the unit can stay healthy and we don't have anyone who has shown they can do that. Maybe it was just a very unlucky year or two but this unit is what's keeping the Cards from making a run in the playoffs.

 

[ajcardfan]

People should remember that Oliver Ross was part of the best offensive line in football the year before we signed him. One that led the league in rushing. So, yes, we have the talent to be much better than we showed on the field last season.

 

[JeffGollin]

People should remember that Oliver Ross was part of the best offensive line in football the year before we signed him. One that led the league in rushing. So, yes, we have the talent to be much better than we showed on the field last season
Who was it who said: "Talent is where potential and production intersect?" (Oh yeah, I remember. It was me. Right now).

At some point you have to fold a player's body of work into that big package of negatives and positives that make up the entire player. Intangibles such as brains (i.e. ability to know the snap count), concentration (see "brains"), and commitment have to be factored in as well.

Granted, Ross came from a quality program and had a reputation for being a "road grader", but last year (a) he repeatedly was flagged for false starts, (b) apparently lacked the feet to forestall quicker pass rushers and (c) was the "star" of an offensive line that enabled our runners to average just 71 yards per game.

My nightmare next year is the spectacle of Edgerrin James repeatedly running right into the butts of Ross & Brown deep in our own backfield before he can even get started. (It's become an ingrained part of the personality of the Cardinal personality on offense - and we've got to make whatever changes are necessary to break this cycle).