The official Suns vs Kings thread.

[Chaz]

A few thoughts to add to the mix.

Too many turnovers! The Suns gave the Kings too many points off turnovers and could be considered the difference in the game. Hopefully the young Suns will clean it up as they get more time together.

Questionable defense the entire game until the last 7 min of the 4th. If they had played with the intensity they did during the comeback they would have won going away. They can win with offense against the eastern teams that don't shoot well. This team has got to tighten up defensively if they are expect to win games in the Western Conference.

The officating was ok. I saw some missed calls but hardly enough to decide the game. It was really not that bad IMO. I do wish they were a little more consistant with the grabbing and hand checking overall.

This was a really disappointing game to lose.

JJ had a great look at the end to tie. He should have used the glass.


The real question is can they stop Dallas. They will need some size to matchup with Dampier and Nowitzki.

 

[coloradosun]

Shawn Marion is starting to piss me off again like last season. Why is he shooting so many 3s? And why in the 4th quarter of a game he is missing everything?

In the games I have watched this has been one thing that has troubled me as well. Why is he launching up so many 3's, he should know by now that is not the strength of his game and we have other players that can do that.

I am coming to the conclusion that Marion may be the guy to come off the bench. Most bench players in the league are not as athletic as he is and combining him with CJ off the bench may relieve his urge to throw up unnecessary 3's because he will be relied upon to score in the middle. He could become a very good sixth man. With Q provides low post scoring that can complement Amare that Marion cannot and moving Hunter into the starting rotation will also be better for starting lineup matchups.

Nash
Q
JJ
Amare
Hunter

This should be the starting lineup.

 

[Joe Mama]

In the games I have watched this has been one thing that has troubled me as well. Why is he launching up so many 3's, he should know by now that is not the strength of his game and we have other players that can do that.

I am coming to the conclusion that Marion may be the guy to come off the bench. Most bench players in the league are not as athletic as he is and combining him with CJ off the bench may relieve his urge to throw up unnecessary 3's because he will be relied upon to score in the middle. He could become a very good sixth man. With Q provides low post scoring that can complement Amare that Marion cannot and moving Hunter into the starting rotation will also be better for starting lineup matchups.

Nash
Q
JJ
Amare
Hunter

This should be the starting lineup.

first of all Shawn Marion only shot 33-point shots last night, and every one of them was wide open. I would prefer heated intake scripts that I would prefer that he stayed away from the three-point shot, but I'm not going to complain about those. If you want to complain about Shawn Marion's performance last night complain about his hands. He dropped and fumbled no less than four balls away that led to turnovers and fast breaks for Sacramento.

There's no way I would start Quentin Richardson over Shawn Marion right now. Shawn Marion is playing so much better that it's not even funny.

Joe Mama

 

[Joe Mama]

Warning: long post

Mike and Eric, I read your posts this morning about the officiating being pretty equal. I got up early, so I had some time and we watched the game on my DVR (you can watch it in about an hour when you fast-forward through commercials, timeouts, and free throws). I read and wrote down some notes on what I saw. I only wrote down calls that went against the Suns if they were pretty obvious. I looked particularly hard for anything I thought a Sacramento fan could complain about.

P. S. I know I have far too much time on my hands. I just couldn't bring myself to do work at 8 a.m. Sunday morning.

Before I post my notes on the officiating I just want to say a few things about the way the game was played. There were a few reasons the Phoenix Suns lost last night. Small ball obviously cost the Suns a lot of points. I mean Chris Webber scored at least 15 of his points in taking easy shots over guys that were just too small to defend him. That's not even including the easy rebounds over much smaller players.

Other than small ball the worst thing was probably the turnovers. Shawn Marion and JJ in particular turn the ball over many, many times. I don't mind turnovers so much when the player is trying to make a play , but most of these were just mishandling the ball or really bad passes. Marion couldn't catch the ball to save his life last night.

Quentin Richardson really did not play well last night. He was frequently out of position defensively, and he couldn't make any shots. It seems pretty clear to me that he should be coming off the bench where he should get the ball in the low post. He wanted to compete for a starting spot. He has clearly lost that competition. Now bring him off the bench.

I still think the Phoenix Suns are a good team. I stand by my prediction of around 45 wins and competing for the last playoff spot. Unfortunately I think they are going to get blown out by Dallas on Tuesday though. I just don't like the matchups at all.

Game Notes

Through the first quarter there really wasn't anything to complain about on either end of the floor. I thought the officials did a pretty good job, and it helps that these teams are not particularly physical. They were also taking a lot of outside shots.

In the second quarter I felt the Suns got screwed on multiple occasions. I know these are hometown announcers, but they were also bitching about many of the things I saw.

Calls or no calls that went against Phoenix:
1. Stephen Hunter clearly gets shoved from behind by Brad Miller when he's taking a shot point-blank. The ball went to Sacramento.
2. Q posted up Peja and was slapped across the arms twice when he went to shoot. Q was still able to kind of shotput the ball towards the basket, but Sacramento got the board.
3. Doug Christie gets away with goaltending on Amare Stoudemire shot. He even hurt his hand on the rim.

Calls or no calls that went against Sacramento:
1. Brad Miller drove past Quentin Richardson for a layup. Even though he made the shot there was some contact from Amare Stoudemire underneath the basket. If called it would have put him at the line for an and one and given Amare another personal foul. It was questionable, but frankly it was all I could find.

Keep in mind that this was with me looking for things that Sacramento fans might have complained about. There just wasn't much. Next I watched the second half and figured I would see all of these things that you guys were talking about.

Calls or no calls that went against Phoenix :
1. JJ gets hammered right in front of the basket after he drives into the middle. There is no call and the ball goes to Sacramento.
2. the Suns were called for a defensive three second violation when clearly there wasn't one. Amare Stoudemire was very upset about this call, and he should have been.
3. JJ is called for a shooting foul against Doug Christie when he gets nothing but ball on the knock away.
4. No call on Chris Webber when he used his off arm to hold off CJ. Normally I wouldn't complain about this play, but he did it right in front of an official and it was obvious.
5. Mike Bibby grabs CJ's arm at the top of the key resulting in a turnover/fast-break for the Kings

Calls or no calls that went against Sacramento :
1. On the third Amare Stoudemire block on Brad Miller in the second half there may have been a foul. Frankly it looked like it clean block, but the camera was too far away from the action to get a real clean look. The only reason I would even think it was a foul was that Brad Miller had a strong reaction. Otherwise I have no idea what he has were talking about with regards to Brad Miller. I even went back and reviewed Amare's blocks that Miller was complaining about. They were both clean.

I'm sure Bball_31 taped the game and will watch it again. I would love to see what someone else thought not just as an indictment on the officiating, but to see if even when I'm trying my hardest to be objective I'm actually watching subjectively.I will say that before I watched the game again I thought that you guys might have been right about Amare and Miller in the second half. Upon review though I would say you guys were way off. I'm anxious to see what Bball_31 and anyone else who watches the game again thinks.

Joe Mama

 

[elindholm]

Thanks for the long analysis, Joe Mama.

I didn't look at it in that degree of detail, but I felt that the Suns were getting away with a fair amount. Unfortunately I don't remember the specifics, and it's possible I was mistaken.

Let me respond to just a few:

1. Stephen Hunter clearly gets shoved from behind by Brad Miller when he's taking a shot point-blank. The ball went to Sacramento.

Hunter is not going to get any calls against Miller. That's just the way it is. The Suns need to learn to work around that limitation.

3. JJ is called for a shooting foul against Doug Christie when he gets nothing but ball on the knock away.

I think I remember this play, and Majerle said that although it looked clean, Johnson should know that the official will usually call a foul in that situation because of how it "looks." If that's the way the game is usually called, all players need to make the adjustment.

4. No call on Chris Webber when he used his off arm to hold off CJ. Normally I wouldn't complain about this play, but he did it right in front of an official and it was obvious.

Jacobsen is not going to get any calls against Webber. No offense, but the very notion is absurd. Webber has been using his arm to hold off opponents his whole career; they certainly aren't going to start calling him on it when he's defended by Jacobsen.

I even went back and reviewed Amare's blocks that Miller was complaining about. They were both clean.

I remember at least one that looked clean on the ball, but that involved a lot of body contact. That's one of the hardest things about blocked-shot calls under the basket. Even if the hand gets "all ball," did the lower body contact constitute a foul?

I also distinctly remember a play in the fourth quarter (when the Suns were in the midst of their comeback) when Stoudemire charged into the lane, ran into a Sacramento player who looked pretty well set (Miller, I think), and got the call his way.

But ultimately, it doesn't matter. Soft teams will never get the benefit of the doubt when they go up against teams perceived to be among the league's elite. Again, this is something that the Suns will just have to adjust to.

I'm anxious to see what Bball_31 and anyone else who watches the game again thinks.

What you really need is the opinion of a Kings fan. They'd watch the whole game a little bit differently, and see things that we all missed.

 

[StatsAmare]

I think that when stat has to play 5 it puts marion in an undersised position instead of his normal oversised sf. Get Hunter in the middle. He won't play any worse at 5 than anyone else, and if he can learn to board as good as his shot blocking he could help the suns quite a bit. JJ's handles have fallen off in both the suns losses but that will be fixed for sure. If Q is just going to stay planted at the 3-line he might as well plant his ass on the bench, put in casey to do the 3's since that's what they pay him to do. Overall one of the most exciting games in a long time.

 

[JS22]

A few thoughts to add to the mix.

Too many turnovers! The Suns gave the Kings too many points off turnovers and could be considered the difference in the game. Hopefully the young Suns will clean it up as they get more time together.

Questionable defense the entire game until the last 7 min of the 4th. If they had played with the intensity they did during the comeback they would have won going away. They can win with offense against the eastern teams that don't shoot well. This team has got to tighten up defensively if they are expect to win games in the Western Conference.

The officating was ok. I saw some missed calls but hardly enough to decide the game. It was really not that bad IMO. I do wish they were a little more consistant with the grabbing and hand checking overall.

This was a really disappointing game to lose.

JJ had a great look at the end to tie. He should have used the glass.


The real question is can they stop Dallas. They will need some size to matchup with Dampier and Nowitzki.

Marion will be guarding Dirk.

Book it.

 

[sunsfn]

I do not think I read about Shawn Marion being sick anywhere in this post?

He had the flu for a few days and missed practice Friday.
I would imagine that had something to do with what looked like his lack of energy.

This was a tough loss and I hope that finally the suns start Hunter instead of starting Richardson..........

 

[Joe Mama]

I do not think I read about Shawn Marion being sick anywhere in this post?

He had the flu for a few days and missed practice Friday.
I would imagine that had something to do with what looked like his lack of energy.

This was a tough loss and I hope that finally the suns start Hunter instead of starting Richardson..........

You can certainly tell something was not right with Shawn Marion against the Cavaliers. In fact I believe I commented on that during the chat that night. He just looked like he had no energy whatsoever.

Joe Mama

 

[PhxGametime]

LOL I only watched game once and I agree with those calls but I'm always complaining about refs. - the last time I really complained about a player was when I used to get mad about Rex Chapman's defense... well and I believe I saw Chapman with some kids at the grocery store and I felt a little akward for me LOL I just decided to put blame all on refs.

I didn't think Howard Eisley was a fit for team but I never really complained about him.

I didn't think it was as bad as Cavs game - the handcheck got out of control that game and the carries. I get upset about when Suns shoot and opponent will slap it away or out of bounds but Suns never get that call... everytime we get called for foul and Suns players are always visably upset about it.

I know I probably don't get any respect watching game after outcome but I started doing that while I worked so many years with nightcrew (couldn't watch live, actually had to have someone else tape game for me) but this year I've watched at least 3 games live...

IMO their will probably be a lot of complaints on Amare Stoudemire for opposing teams fans but besides Barkley (McDyess didn't get many calls) every team has 1 player that has gotten calls before and it's about time for Suns...

 

[coloradosun]

I think that when stat has to play 5 it puts marion in an undersised position instead of his normal oversised sf. Get Hunter in the middle. He won't play any worse at 5 than anyone else, and if he can learn to board as good as his shot blocking he could help the suns quite a bit. JJ's handles have fallen off in both the suns losses but that will be fixed for sure. If Q is just going to stay planted at the 3-line he might as well plant his ass on the bench, put in casey to do the 3's since that's what they pay him to do. Overall one of the most exciting games in a long time.

Start Hunter and put him at the high post. Q has a great low post game. He and Amare on both blocks and JJ and Nash on the wings. That is the offense that D'Antoni should work with. Hunter may last the first 10-15 minutes of the quarter, go to small ball after the opponents have had a few laps up and down the court. They should be gasping and grapping at the end of the quarters with Marion or CJ on the floor at that time.

 

[playstation]

coloradosun-

I never thought of that potential starting lineup, but i really like it. It makes sense because Q is such a good rebounder anyways. Obviously Marion's not going to the bench, but that actually makes a lot of sense. Hell, i'd try it for a game or two just to see what type of energy that generates.

 

[Joe Mama]

There are a couple problems with that lineup though. First of all, Shawn Marion is going to start. He is not coming off the bench. That's just the way it is. More importantly it makes no sense to put Hunter in the high post because he is absolutely no threat up there. His defender will simply sag into the lane and make things difficult for Q and Amare.

Joe Mama

 

[Chaz]

There are a couple problems with that lineup though. First of all, Shawn Marion is going to start. He is not coming off the bench. That's just the way it is. More importantly it makes no sense to put Hunter in the high post because he is absolutely no threat up there. His defender will simply sag into the lane and make things difficult for Q and Amare.

Joe Mama

Exactly, If we want a high post center to start the game put in Lampe. They will have to respect his shooting and leave opportunities for Q and Stoudemire in the lane.