The people who are starting to defend the Pace pick:

[Ed B]

By your logic, which so far consists mostly of "He might develop into a good player" and "Well Graves and the Cardinals must know something about him that you don't!", any one of the 500+ draft-eligible players this year would have been a great pick.

Because after all, any and every player has a chance to develop into a good one, and if you're willing to give the team such blind benefit of the doubt (which they have of course earned through their years of outstanding draft success), then it didn't matter if we took Calvin Pace, Joe Blow, or Johnny the Mail Room Boy, you would still be on here saying "I trust Graves, this was a great pick!"

The sooner you face the fact that we got totally played by the Saints, outsmarted ourselves in the trade-down (Graves admits as much), and ended up picking a player we didn't even want (they wanted McDougle and just settled for Pace out of desperation), the sooner you can begin to start formulating excuses for why Pace can't beat Wakefield and KVB out in training camp.

Never mind the fact that Pace is very, very similar (almost identical) in every way (size, speed, production) to a player we already have........Dennis Johnson, the last pick in the 3rd round in 2002.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by Ed B
By your logic, which so far consists mostly of "He might develop into a good player" and "Well Graves and the Cardinals must know something about him that you don't!", any one of the 500+ draft-eligible players this year would have been a great pick.

Because after all, any and every player has a chance to develop into a good one, and if you're willing to give the team such blind benefit of the doubt (which they have of course earned through their years of outstanding draft success), then it didn't matter if we took Calvin Pace, Joe Blow, or Johnny the Mail Room Boy, you would still be on here saying "I trust Graves, this was a great pick!"

The sooner you face the fact that we got totally played by the Saints, outsmarted ourselves in the trade-down (Graves admits as much), and ended up picking a player we didn't even want (they wanted McDougle and just settled for Pace out of desperation), the sooner you can begin to start formulating excuses for why Pace can't beat Wakefield and KVB out in training camp.

Never mind the fact that Pace is very, very similar (almost identical) in every way (size, speed, production) to a player we already have........Dennis Johnson, the last pick in the 3rd round in 2002.

I think he was a reach, no doubt, but he was a guy on my radar screen, but more of a early 2nd rounder.

 

[pinnacle]

I think pace or johnson will beat out wakefield..this season - most likely johnson with pace coming in on passing downs and kvb sliding down..

 

[RonF]

I wouldn't want to defend any of our picks, however, we are the Cards and history has taught us that making good picks in the first 2 or 3 rounds are not the norm for us. I know most analysts would not agree with our selections but I also know that the years they did agree the players the players didn't work out anyway. So I guess my point is that it's a crap shoot no matter whether we go with the favorites or against them. It won't take long to find out.

 

[Ed B]

We're not talking about a guy who was picked 5 or 6 picks "too high", like people splitting hairs over where New Orleans drafted Sullivan......that's silly. We're talking about a guy who may potentially have been drafted 2 rounds too soon.

The way this pick was met by absolute and complete universal laughter around the league and media makes me very, very skeptical over the postulations about "Well how do you know someone else wasn't going to take him in the first round???".....another argument you could apply to any player we took at #18.

The predictable chorus of people who will defend anything this team does is swelling up (24 hours after everyone's first reaction was "what a lousy pick") and it is really dumb. Making one bad draft pick is not the end of the world, just admit it and move on. Graves has admitted already that the guy was a huge reach, we misjudged the run on defensive linemen, and wanted McDougle but merely settled for Pace out of fear.

 

[Ed B]

Originally posted by pinnacle
I think pace or johnson will beat out wakefield..this season - most likely johnson with pace coming in on passing downs and kvb sliding down..

So now KVB is a defensive tackle and calvin pace is a pass-rush specialist?

 

[AZCB34]

Originally posted by Ed B
We're not talking about a guy who was picked 5 or 6 picks "too high", like people splitting hairs over where New Orleans drafted Sullivan......that's silly. We're talking about a guy who may potentially have been drafted 2 rounds too soon.

The way this pick was met by absolute and complete universal laughter around the league and media makes me very, very skeptical over the postulations about "Well how do you know someone else wasn't going to take him in the first round???".....another argument you could apply to any player we took at #18.

The predictable chorus of people who will defend anything this team does is swelling up (24 hours after everyone's first reaction was "what a lousy pick") and it is really dumb. Making one bad draft pick is not the end of the world, just admit it and move on. Graves has admitted already that the guy was a huge reach, we misjudged the run on defensive linemen, and wanted McDougle but merely settled for Pace out of fear.

Ed I agree with this. The deafening silence from the crowd there PLUS the almost silent disbelief by the ESPN guys told th whole story for me (I admit I didn't know very much about Pace). This was a horrible development and I personally feel like Graves was in over his head and messed up. He and Mac can spin this as much as they want but it won't change the disaster the first round was for the Cards.

 

[pinnacle]

no..on passing downs they will try to get the pass rushers on the field together...not sure of exact formation...reading media comments by cardinals coaches - they mention pace is a pass rusher...last season they slide wakefield down to tackle when dennis johnson came in...thinking they would do something comparable this time..

it is all conjecture at this stage..

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by Ed B
We're not talking about a guy who was picked 5 or 6 picks "too high", like people splitting hairs over where New Orleans drafted Sullivan......that's silly. We're talking about a guy who may potentially have been drafted 2 rounds too soon.

The way this pick was met by absolute and complete universal laughter around the league and media makes me very, very skeptical over the postulations about "Well how do you know someone else wasn't going to take him in the first round???".....another argument you could apply to any player we took at #18.

The predictable chorus of people who will defend anything this team does is swelling up (24 hours after everyone's first reaction was "what a lousy pick") and it is really dumb. Making one bad draft pick is not the end of the world, just admit it and move on. Graves has admitted already that the guy was a huge reach, we misjudged the run on defensive linemen, and wanted McDougle but merely settled for Pace out of fear.

Well Gil Brandt sure liked our draft, and he really liked Pace.

Ed, go watch some film on Pace, I know you are smarter than making a snap judgement based on what "others" think. I think you will be a little happier.

I wanted Suggs, but it looks like other teams as well as us didn't want to touch him.

 

[arthurracoon]

I'm not dissapointed with the picks of Pace, ect. (although we made a big reach)

I'm am mad about the trade. We lose a 4th rounder and swap 2nd's.

 

[Ed B]

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
Well Gil Brandt sure liked our draft, and he really liked Pace.

Ed, go watch some film on Pace, I know you are smarter than making a snap judgement based on what "others" think. I think you will be a little happier.

I wanted Suggs, but it looks like other teams as well as us didn't want to touch him.

Pace, like any other pick, may turn out to be a good player.

I seriously question the Cardinals' negotiating skills in that trade and their decision to take Pace where they took him.

He may step on the field and become King Kong for all anyone knows, but the Cardinals seemed completely confused and defeated yesterday. They didn't even really want this guy. They admitted as much. They said they got "surprised by the run on DL" and were hoping for McDougle. Basically, then, Pace was about their 5th choice. We settled. Because we misjudged. That's what I'm upset about.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by Ed B
Pace, like any other pick, may turn out to be a good player.

I seriously question the Cardinals' negotiating skills in that trade and their decision to take Pace where they took him.

He may step on the field and become King Kong for all anyone knows, but the Cardinals seemed completely confused and defeated yesterday. They didn't even really want this guy. They admitted as much. They said they got "surprised by the run on DL" and were hoping for McDougle. Basically, then, Pace was about their 5th choice. We settled. Because we misjudged. That's what I'm upset about.

Ok, I understand, though I don't think that they didn't want the guy. I think that they trusted their draft board, and Pace was the next defensive end on the board. If anything, blame them for drafting need.

Pace said that he had talked to Cards, so obviously he was on their radar screens. Ed....I think this is a boom or bust pick. He could be "king kong" or he could be Jane.

 

[jmr667]

Originally posted by arthurracoon
I'm not dissapointed with the picks of Pace, ect. (although we made a big reach)

I'm am mad about the trade. We lose a 4th rounder and swap 2nd's.

I'm reserving judgement on Pace. It was a little bit of a reach, but its obvious the Cards needed to do SOMETHING at DE.

I completing agree with you about the later picks. It looks like the Cards were so set on trading down they let themselves get jobbed on the later picks. They should have held onto the 4th rounder or not swapped the 2nds.
Surprising actually, since it seems Rod has done a good job of not bargaining from a position of desperation with player's agents. I wonder if he was the one who actually negotiated with the Saints. Could a Bidwill have stepped in on this one?

 

[Northern Card]

So we have snickers, guffaws - and crys of disbelief from "know-it-alls" who predicted players- such as: Henderson, Long, Whitten, Jacobs, Kelsay, Weathersby, Peterson, Bailey and Doss - would go in the first round.

One can only conclude that just about every team in the league is staffed with idiots...

 

[sly fly]

I think he was a reach, no doubt, but he was a guy on my radar screen, but more of a early 2nd rounder.

Reach is an understatement. The whole crux of the argument is that the Cardinals could have landed him in later rounds.

To be this underprepared for EVERY scenario just speaks volumes about who is running this "professional" organization. And, I use that term loosely.

Why in the heck did they swap 2nd rounders and give up their 4th rounder??? The Saints were probably having trouble keeping their laughter resonate on the other end of the phone line.

There is no way anyone can "defend" this pick. Even if they get lucky and he turns out to be a player.

 

[red desert]

Originally posted by arthurracoon
I'm not dissapointed with the picks of Pace, ect. (although we made a big reach)

I'm am mad about the trade. We lose a 4th rounder and swap 2nd's.

Horrendous trade for the Cards. This has been my point exactly. AND NO AMATEUR SPIN DOCTOR IS GOING TO CHANGE THIS FACT.

 

[Northern Card]

It's the difference between a motivated buyer or seller.

The CARDS decided they would trade down unless their specifically targeted players were still on the board, and obviously - that didn't include SUGGS. The flipping of the seconds and giving up the fourth was the price they paid to get 4 picks, rather than three, in the first 70....

All is left to be seen, but to my eyes - our DE rotation has improved over last year, and we've added some good talent to the battle for jobs at wideout. All-in-all, pretty good investments in the future...

 

[Krangodnzr]

Here is what Pat Kirwan said:

# Sel# Team Player Pos. School
17 17 Arizona Bryant Johnson WR Penn State
Pat Kirwan's Analysis
Bryant Johnson has moved up the draft board fast and late, just like a number of picks taken so far. He is a big, 215-pound receiver, much like David Boston. He has 4.3 speed and surprisingly has been taken before Taylor Jacobs and Kelley Washngton. Coach McGinnis got used to a big, physical receiver, and wanted another one. Coaches I spoke with loved this guy's character, and he is a safe bet.

# Sel# Team Player Pos. School
18 18 Arizona Calvin Pace DE Wake Forest
Pat Kirwan's Analysis
Calvin Pace is a surprise pick at No. 18. Most people I spoke with had a second-round grade on him. He plays hard, and takes the spot most people thought was going to be filled by Suggs. He is heavier than Suggs and may be a better fit for their four man front. It's obvious that they thought Suggs was more of a linebacker, and they wanted a guy who could put his hand on the ground.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Graves

Someone clue the clown music, Rod Graves is about to make an organizational decision.

There was nothing bold about this draft.

We didn't build for the future and we really didn't significantly improve our team for the next season.

If we end up signing Marcus Robinson...or we could have easily with all the money we have...then how much impact will the WRs have?

How much better is Pace over what we have already at DE?

I am sure glad we used our 3rd rounder on a backup LB when a starting CB (Weathersby) was still on the board.

This draft is funking clown shoes.

 

[Red Air Force]

Re: Re: The people who are starting to defend the Pace pick:

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
I think he was a reach, no doubt, but he was a guy on my radar screen, but more of a early 2nd rounder.

Early second? Your own mock draft has the Cards taking him in the third.

I give you props for calling the pick, but there is no excuse for taking him in the 1st. Once they realized they were F'ed, they shoulda just sucked it up, and traded down again for more picks.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Re: Re: Re: The people who are starting to defend the Pace pick:

Originally posted by CaliforniaCard
Early second? Your own mock draft has the Cards taking him in the third.

I give you props for calling the pick, but there is no excuse for taking him in the 1st. Once they realized they were F'ed, they shoulda just sucked it up, and traded down again for more picks.

Ah, but I gave him a third round grade before his great workouts.

Pat Kirwan's Analysis
Calvin Pace is a surprise pick at No. 18. Most people I spoke with had a second-round grade on him.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Re: Re: Re: The people who are starting to defend the Pace pick:

Originally posted by CaliforniaCard
Once they realized they were F'ed, they shoulda just sucked it up, and traded down again for more picks.

I do agree with this point, but you have to have a trading partner to trade up. Why or who would trade up?

 

[john h]

Originally posted by Ed B
By your logic, which so far consists mostly of "He might develop into a good player" and "Well Graves and the Cardinals must know something about him that you don't!", any one of the 500+ draft-eligible players this year would have been a great pick.

Because after all, any and every player has a chance to develop into a good one, and if you're willing to give the team such blind benefit of the doubt (which they have of course earned through their years of outstanding draft success), then it didn't matter if we took Calvin Pace, Joe Blow, or Johnny the Mail Room Boy, you would still be on here saying "I trust Graves, this was a great pick!"

The sooner you face the fact that we got totally played by the Saints, outsmarted ourselves in the trade-down (Graves admits as much), and ended up picking a player we didn't even want (they wanted McDougle and just settled for Pace out of desperation), the sooner you can begin to start formulating excuses for why Pace can't beat Wakefield and KVB out in training camp.

Never mind the fact that Pace is very, very similar (almost identical) in every way (size, speed, production) to a player we already have........Dennis Johnson, the



last pick in the 3rd round in 2002.

My take on this is we thought we were smarter than we are and expected someone who we wanted to be at the 17 slot and when they were not we left with what we got. I am never a fan of trading down. We could have any number of guys who have a very good chance of being great NFL players and now we are left with 1st round draft picks with third round value. Would you not like to know who the driving force behind this trade was. Ultimately one person had to make the call. If it was Graves then he is off to a sorry start and should have his knuckles slapped real hard. I am not sure Mr. B could have done any worse. This ranks right up there with the stupidity of letting David Boston go for nothing. I am changing my grade on this draft to an F or if Incomplete is worse then Incomplet. Dam! Expelling them from school. If McGinnis was part of this draft then enjoy your last year Dave. This may have been the worst draft I have ever seen the Cardinals pull off and that includes the great Tommy Knight selection or Kelly Staouffer debacle. I am anxious to hear how the Cardinals spin this deal.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Re: Re: The people who are starting to defend the Pace pick:

Originally posted by john h
My take on this is we thought we were smarter than we are and expected someone who we wanted to be at the 17 slot and when they were not we left with what we got. I am never a fan of trading down. We could have any number of guys who have a very good chance of being great NFL players and now we are left with 1st round draft picks with third round value. Would you not like to know who the driving force behind this trade was. Ultimately one person had to make the call. If it was Graves then he is off to a sorry start and should have his knuckles slapped real hard. I am not sure Mr. B could have done any worse. This ranks right up there with the stupidity of letting David Boston go for nothing. I am changing my grade on this draft to an F or if Incomplete is worse then Incomplet. Dam! Expelling them from school. If McGinnis was part of this draft then enjoy your last year Dave. This may have been the worst draft I have ever seen the Cardinals pull off and that includes the great Tommy Knight selection or Kelly Staouffer debacle. I am anxious to hear how the Cardinals spin this deal.

Third round value? Hardly.

Bryant Johnson was the number 3 receiver in the draft.

Pace was, according to Kirwan who actually talks to NFL teams, was a second rounder.

 

[john h]

Originally posted by Ed B
Pace, like any other pick, may turn out to be a good player.

I seriously question the Cardinals' negotiating skills in that trade and their decision to take Pace where they took him.

He may step on the field and become King Kong for all anyone knows, but the Cardinals seemed completely confused and defeated yesterday. They didn't even really want this guy. They admitted as much. They said they got "surprised by the run on DL" and were hoping for McDougle. Basically, then, Pace was about their 5th choice. We settled. Because we misjudged. That's what I'm upset about.

If I made a misjudgement like this as a pilot all the crew and I would be dead.