The Q Conundrum

Harry

ASFN Consultant and Senior Writer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Posts
12,392
Reaction score
27,125
Location
Orlando, FL
Sounds like a great title for a mystery and I guess in the end it is a mystery. What will the Cards do with Boldin? Most importantly will he be traded?

I have long maintained this trade is almost certain to happen simply because the Cards proved they have an effective offense without Boldin. They are better with him and he is a great asset, but how many points should a team expect of their offense? It would seem the Cards are good enough to hit any reasonable number with Boldin out of the equation. On the other hand they have several other needs that would make them a far more balanced team and Boldin could bring them at least one of those players. So assuming a trade is inevitable, who are the likely trading partners and what could the Cards get.

I should mention that most teams could use a player of Boldin’s caliber. So, while I’ll focus on the most obvious choices, nearly anything is possible. Since the Bidwill family abhors embarrassment (other than apparently years of failure) I don’t see Boldin going to a team the Cards will play in 2009 unless that team is not viewed as a threat to win the game. So, eliminate Indy, Minnesota, NYG, Jacksonville, Chicago, Tennessee, Carolina and the NFC West. That’s quite a few teams to rule out, but maybe one of them will take Edwards off the Brown’s hands, making Bolding more valuable. Jacksonville will likely sign Holt so that should also rule them out even if beatable.

That leaves Baltimore, Cleveland, NYJ, Miami, Oakland, Dallas and Philly. Add Detroit to this list as I’m sure they’d be classed as beatable. Assuming the Cards want immediate help, the situation is complicated by previously traded picks. Cleveland has no third round pick, but does have 2 second round picks. Philly just traded their first found selection. Dallas has no round one choice, which removes them, like Philly, from a deal scenario unless players were exchanged. Before considering the remaining contenders, there’s another thing to consider.

What is Boldin worth? What positions in the draft would be attractive? The Lions would be happy to dump the first pick, but the Cards wouldn’t pay those dollars for anyone on the board. That said, any trade would surely have to return a first round pick. It’s safe to assume the Cards would prefer starting with Cleveland at the 5th spot or Oakland at the 7th slot at the earliest. If Curry was still on the board at 5, this pick might be too tempting to reject. At the 7, the Cards would still have their pick of the running backs or Cushing, though most would see the latter as an elevation. The problem with these two picks is the value chart. If you use the Cowboys’ deal for Williams as a yardstick, Detroit got about 1047 value points. That would put the deal at about round one, 15th pick and that’s all the Cards would get. The Cards would have to give up Boldin and picks to move to 5 or 7.

On the other hand, the Colts offer would only value at 850 and surely would not be acceptable as it stands if true. It’s hard to use the Williams' deal as the problems with it cut two ways. The price paid for Williams was widely thought to be too high. Also most analysts put Boldin’s value higher despite the injury factor. Still, we’ve got to start someplace.

So let’s say the Cards only want draft choices and are looking in the 1100 point range, though they might settle for a little less. The Jets deal would be their first and their third with the teams swapping spots in round 3. Baltimore would end up surrendering their first, second and fourth round picks. With 2 second round picks Miami could offer their first and pick number 44 from round two and their sixth round pick. The Cards would then send their third round spot to Miami. The Cards might settle for the first, the other second round and their sixth round selection. Finally, there’s Detroit. They need leadership more than any other team and Boldin provides it. Their receiving corps has been a headache for years. If they offered the 20th pick in round one and the first pick in round 3 this deal would get done before draft day.

In the end, the most likely scenario is that the deal happens on draft day and depends upon who is on the boards at which point. Since Miami and Colts select last, the Cards will probably wait out the first round targeting two positions (maybe 3) and a handful of players. The longer you wait and still get your targets, the more you gain in additional picks. If those players move rapidly, then look for them to approach Detroit or the NYJ. Don’t be surprised if Cleveland or Oakland move down and fall into the same category as Detroit.
 

Shane

Comin for you!
Super Moderator
Moderator
Supporting Member
Joined
May 13, 2002
Posts
69,471
Reaction score
40,072
Location
Las Vegas
On the other hand, the Colts offer would only value at 850 and surely would not be acceptable as it stands if true. It’s hard to use the Williams' deal as the problems with it cut two ways. The price paid for Williams was widely thought to be too high. Also most analysts put Boldin’s value higher despite the injury factor. Still, we’ve got to start someplace.

All great stuff Harry as usual. Although I think that Boldin will still be a Card after the draft. Its fun to talk about.

Also reference the bolded above. Most people seem to forget that Roy Williams is as injury prone as Q so people who are using Boldin's injury history as an excuse not to get at least what Detroit got dont really know what they are talking about IMHO.
 
Last edited:

Cardiac

ASFN Icon
Joined
Jul 21, 2002
Posts
12,071
Reaction score
3,343
Harry,

All very logical and well thought out. Do you think the Card want to trade Boldin?
My impression is they know there is interest from other teams and will accept a deal that is over market value.
 

Cbus cardsfan

Back to Back ASFN FFL Champion
Joined
May 14, 2002
Posts
21,513
Reaction score
7,785
out of all those scenarios, give me B'mores 1st, 2nd , and 4th. I like how you used the trade value chart as a model. When Graves did that trade down a few years ago, iirc, it seemed he went pretty close to that chart.

I also think a big consideration is if a team thinks they are 1 player away from getting over the hump. The Ravens probably fit that category the most. Miami shouldn't,Detroit can't think that way,Indy should, and who knows what Oakland thinks.
 
Last edited:

Krangodnzr

Captain of Team Conner
Joined
Jul 21, 2002
Posts
36,497
Reaction score
34,503
Location
Charlotte, NC
All great stuff Harry as usual. Although I think that Boldin will still be a Card after the draft. Its fun to talk about.

Also reference the bolded above. Most people seem to forget that Roy Williams is and was even more injury prone than Q playing in 10 less game in the exact same # of years in the league. So people who are using Boldin's injury history as an excuse not to get at least what Detroit got dont really know what they are talking about IMHO.

Roy Williams came out the same year as Fitzgerald. Which would mean that Boldin has actually missed more games than Williams
 

Shane

Comin for you!
Super Moderator
Moderator
Supporting Member
Joined
May 13, 2002
Posts
69,471
Reaction score
40,072
Location
Las Vegas

JeffGollin

ASFN Icon
Joined
May 14, 2002
Posts
20,472
Reaction score
3,056
Location
Holmdel, NJ
Try these scenarios on for size...

1. The Cardinals place "security at RB" over "Extending Q" at the top of their priority list.

2. They're squeezed for cap room and will remain so until or unless they unload Edgerrin James.

3. But they will not unload Edge unless they know they'll have a suitable replacement.

4. That replacement could come in the form of either a Wells, Moreno, D Brown or conceivably L Greene or A Brown - or a veteran RB like a Larry Johnson or a LeRon McClain.

5. If they can resolve their RB situation by finding a replacement for Edge, they'll immediately unload him thereby freeing up the necessary cap space for extending Boldin and conceivably advancing deals with Dansby, Wilson and Dockett. (I wouldn't be surprised if Boldin and the Cards had the framework of a deal already in place and ready to pull the trigger on after our pick in round one).

6. But things figure to get dicey if the Cards can't replace Edge. Should they arrive at that point (hopefully to them - earlier in the draft when they still have time to deal for a high enough #1), they'd have at least a few options available to them:

- Keep Edge & make Boldin fulfill his contract.

- Keep Edge, release 3 or 4 less heralded players and use the freed-up cap space to extend Q.

- Keep Edge and sign an interim contract with Boldin that would give him part of what he wants and buy more time to sign him to a longer extension.

- Trade Boldin, release Edge and use the new #1 to draft Wells or Moreno.

- Trade Boldin, keep Edge and use one of our two #1's to draft a replacement WR.

The tricky thing about all of this involves its timing - If we pull the trigger too early, we'll never know whether Wells or Moreno will be there when we pick. If we pull the trigger too late, we won't be able to jump up higher in the 1st round to guarantee we'll get the RB we want.

In any case, I think the conundrum surrounding what to do about RB is what's causing the team's inaction and partly creating the conundrum regarding Boldin.
 

Mitch

Crawled Through 5 FB Fields
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Posts
13,405
Reaction score
2,982
Location
Wrentham, MA
Sounds like a great title for a mystery and I guess in the end it is a mystery. What will the Cards do with Boldin? Most importantly will he be traded?

I have long maintained this trade is almost certain to happen simply because the Cards proved they have an effective offense without Boldin. They are better with him and he is a great asset, but how many points should a team expect of their offense? It would seem the Cards are good enough to hit any reasonable number with Boldin out of the equation. On the other hand they have several other needs that would make them a far more balanced team and Boldin could bring them at least one of those players. So assuming a trade is inevitable, who are the likely trading partners and what could the Cards get.

I should mention that most teams could use a player of Boldin’s caliber. So, while I’ll focus on the most obvious choices, nearly anything is possible. Since the Bidwill family abhors embarrassment (other than apparently years of failure) I don’t see Boldin going to a team the Cards will play in 2009 unless that team is not viewed as a threat to win the game. So, eliminate Indy, Minnesota, NYG, Jacksonville, Chicago, Tennessee, Carolina and the NFC West. That’s quite a few teams to rule out, but maybe one of them will take Edwards off the Brown’s hands, making Bolding more valuable. Jacksonville will likely sign Holt so that should also rule them out even if beatable.

That leaves Baltimore, Cleveland, NYJ, Miami, Oakland, Dallas and Philly. Add Detroit to this list as I’m sure they’d be classed as beatable. Assuming the Cards want immediate help, the situation is complicated by previously traded picks. Cleveland has no third round pick, but does have 2 second round picks. Philly just traded their first found selection. Dallas has no round one choice, which removes them, like Philly, from a deal scenario unless players were exchanged. Before considering the remaining contenders, there’s another thing to consider.

What is Boldin worth? What positions in the draft would be attractive? The Lions would be happy to dump the first pick, but the Cards wouldn’t pay those dollars for anyone on the board. That said, any trade would surely have to return a first round pick. It’s safe to assume the Cards would prefer starting with Cleveland at the 5th spot or Oakland at the 7th slot at the earliest. If Curry was still on the board at 5, this pick might be too tempting to reject. At the 7, the Cards would still have their pick of the running backs or Cushing, though most would see the latter as an elevation. The problem with these two picks is the value chart. If you use the Cowboys’ deal for Williams as a yardstick, Detroit got about 1047 value points. That would put the deal at about round one, 15th pick and that’s all the Cards would get. The Cards would have to give up Boldin and picks to move to 5 or 7.

On the other hand, the Colts offer would only value at 850 and surely would not be acceptable as it stands if true. It’s hard to use the Williams' deal as the problems with it cut two ways. The price paid for Williams was widely thought to be too high. Also most analysts put Boldin’s value higher despite the injury factor. Still, we’ve got to start someplace.

So let’s say the Cards only want draft choices and are looking in the 1100 point range, though they might settle for a little less. The Jets deal would be their first and their third with the teams swapping spots in round 3. Baltimore would end up surrendering their first, second and fourth round picks. With 2 second round picks Miami could offer their first and pick number 44 from round two and their sixth round pick. The Cards would then send their third round spot to Miami. The Cards might settle for the first, the other second round and their sixth round selection. Finally, there’s Detroit. They need leadership more than any other team and Boldin provides it. Their receiving corps has been a headache for years. If they offered the 20th pick in round one and the first pick in round 3 this deal would get done before draft day.

In the end, the most likely scenario is that the deal happens on draft day and depends upon who is on the boards at which point. Since Miami and Colts select last, the Cards will probably wait out the first round targeting two positions (maybe 3) and a handful of players. The longer you wait and still get your targets, the more you gain in additional picks. If those players move rapidly, then look for them to approach Detroit or the NYJ. Don’t be surprised if Cleveland or Oakland move down and fall into the same category as Detroit.

Further compounding this conundrum are teams concerns about Boldin's durability (the most recent concerns are about his hip) and how much of a risk it is to sign him to the lucrative deal he wants. Inevitably, I think this will tie teams' hands.

Interesting too that just yesterday Michael Strahan advised Boldin to stick a sock in his mouth and was emphatic that Boldin is not helping his cause with his comments of wanting out of Arizona to the media.

Prediction: no first round picks will be offered for Boldin...the best bet may be that Philly calls the Cardinals with their #57 (2nd round) pick and adds in a player and a couple of their 4 5th round picks...or a 2010 pick.

There may be a player at #57 that the Cardinals like a lot, so in this scenario they may be tempted.
 

LVG

Moderator
Moderator
Supporting Member
Moderator Emeritus
Joined
Oct 10, 2005
Posts
23,978
Reaction score
7,699
Location
Vegas, baby, yeah!
There may be a player at #57 that the Cardinals like a lot, so in this scenario they may be tempted.

Arg, my head will explode if all we get for Q is a 2nd rounder (and a mid one at that).

I think the minimum price is a 1st and a 3rd.
 

imaCafan

Next stop, Hall of Fame!
Joined
Aug 24, 2002
Posts
3,639
Reaction score
1,025
Location
Needles, Ca.
Arg, my head will explode if all we get for Q is a 2nd rounder (and a mid one at that).

I think the minimum price is a 1st and a 3rd.

Agree. Nothing LESS than a mid 1st. (15ish) or lower 1st.(26ish) and third rounder or a starter in trade....
 

az jam

ASFN Icon
Joined
Mar 6, 2004
Posts
12,997
Reaction score
5,250
Location
Scottsdale, AZ
Boldin will be traded and the Cards will get at least a first and third for sure. The Cards are keeping the trading talks very close to their vest. I predict there will be a surprise on who gets him and what they pay. The GM's are not stupid they all know how good Boldin really is. 3 pro bowls in 6 years is quite an accomplishment.
 

WildBB

Yogi n da Bear
Joined
Mar 20, 2004
Posts
14,295
Reaction score
1,239
Location
The Sonoran Jungle - West
the Cardinals are on record as saying that the prospects this year between picks 6-31 have close grades. The talent doesn't separate itself enough to move into the top picks , they just won't do it.

Actually this is a fantastic year to move down in the draft up to some 10-11 spots and be flexable enough for your pick, which we are.

Unless Baltimore bowls us over, Anquan's a Cardinal. Just say no to Detroit, he deserves at least that much from this organization.
 

Shane

Comin for you!
Super Moderator
Moderator
Supporting Member
Joined
May 13, 2002
Posts
69,471
Reaction score
40,072
Location
Las Vegas
his hip wasn't an issue this year was it?

He had the hamstring pull that he says was related to the hip injury in the paper. Says he wnet to a chiropractor who got him all in line and it is no longer an issue.
 

Skkorpion

Grey haired old Bird
LEGACY MEMBER
Supporting Member
Joined
May 9, 2002
Posts
11,026
Reaction score
5
Location
Sun City, AZ
A few responses:

1. Harry, you are a prisoner of your era and past experience. Michael Bidwill is not his father and seems to care not one whit how he is perceived and is driven to win. Fear of embarrassment? Nonsense.

2. If the trade don't fit, we don't commit.

In response to Jeff Gollin's points -- Jeff, you or I would make the opening day roster over Edge under this coach. That's my read of the situation.
 

lobo

ASFN Lifer
Joined
Feb 16, 2006
Posts
3,310
Reaction score
230
Location
Inverness, Il
Boldin will be traded and the Cards will get at least a first and third for sure. The Cards are keeping the trading talks very close to their vest. I predict there will be a surprise on who gets him and what they pay. The GM's are not stupid they all know how good Boldin really is. 3 pro bowls in 6 years is quite an accomplishment.

Agree. It will not be the usual suspects. I would take a 2 or three from Jints and one of the top 3 of their front 7. Nice and simple. As I said before if we don't pull thew trigger by Saturday night be are going to lose a whole lot of leverage. Cards need a team that wants a top of the line receiver to have (say) Oakland or J'ville take him.
 

Arizona's Finest

Your My Favorite Mistake
Joined
Jun 11, 2005
Posts
9,709
Reaction score
1
Prediction: no first round picks will be offered for Boldin...the best bet may be that Philly calls the Cardinals with their #57 (2nd round) pick and adds in a player and a couple of their 4 5th round picks...or a 2010 pick.

There may be a player at #57 that the Cardinals like a lot, so in this scenario they may be tempted.

Mitch you cant actually believe this. What is you rsponse to a LT like Peters and a inferior player in Williams getting significantly more? And this is actually more of a feeding frenzy for Q so I just dont' see it.

If you are in fact right that Cardinals won't make the trade. I honestly believe that.
 

ASUCHRIS

ONE HEART BEAT!!!
Joined
Sep 2, 2002
Posts
16,670
Reaction score
15,006
A few responses:

1. Harry, you are a prisoner of your era and past experience. Michael Bidwill is not his father and seems to care not one whit how he is perceived and is driven to win. Fear of embarrassment? Nonsense.

2. If the trade don't fit, we don't commit.

In response to Jeff Gollin's points -- Jeff, you or I would make the opening day roster over Edge under this coach. That's my read of the situation.

Not a hint of praise? I really enjoyed it Harry, and agreed with the majority of it. Skkorp is right though about Michael B...I think he is light years above his old man. (Who set a pretty low standard)

Also agree there's no chance we take less than a 1st and 3rd. If less than that is offered, he'll be on the team until it is.
 

Mitch

Crawled Through 5 FB Fields
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Posts
13,405
Reaction score
2,982
Location
Wrentham, MA
Mitch you cant actually believe this. What is you rsponse to a LT like Peters and a inferior player in Williams getting significantly more? And this is actually more of a feeding frenzy for Q so I just dont' see it.

If you are in fact right that Cardinals won't make the trade. I honestly believe that.

What I've been saying is that teams are: (a) enamored with their own draft boards; (b) loathe to give up picks and big money to a WR with injury questions (whether any of us agree with those questions or not, they are out there); (c) looking at the best crop of WRs with first/second round talent to come along in a while; (d) and perhaps even leery of having to deal with another disgruntled Drew Rosenhaus WR client.

I do not forsee any team offering a first in this year's draft for Q.

What I was saying about the Philly call is...it wouldn't surpise me if Philly called the Cardinals in the second round to offer their 2nd, 3rd and 5th round picks, for example. The Cardinals might say no...but, if, for instance, the Cardinal see a player at #57 that they like a lot and fear would not be still on the board at #63, it might make them consider a deal like that.

If you read the context I meant a proposal that would involve the #57 pick (and much more)...I did not mean Q for just the #57 pick.
 

TheCardFan

Things have changed.
Joined
May 14, 2002
Posts
12,335
Reaction score
15,572
Location
Charlotte
IF we trade Q...the only way this team doesn't take a step backwards is to get lucky in the draft (less than 50/50) or get a quality starter in return at a position of need RB/LB.

The most probable trade partner is the Giants who are obviously in need of a WR and are stacked at OLB/DE. Don't need or want the low #1 pick.

The Ravens are the second best choice. They are stacked at RB and in need of a WR to take the pressure off of Flacco/run game. I would love to have McGahee. Don't need or want the low #1 pick.

The Jets with the 17th pick (woud allow us to take a RB or OLB/DE). Highest boom or bust option.
 

WildBB

Yogi n da Bear
Joined
Mar 20, 2004
Posts
14,295
Reaction score
1,239
Location
The Sonoran Jungle - West
IF we trade Q...the only way this team doesn't take a step backwards is to get lucky in the draft (less than 50/50) or get a quality starter in return at a position of need RB/LB.

The most probable trade partner is the Giants who are obviously in need of a WR and are stacked at OLB/DE. Don't need or want the low #1 pick.

The Ravens are the second best choice. They are stacked at RB and in need of a WR to take the pressure off of Flacco/run game. I would love to have McGahee. Don't need or want the low #1 pick.

The Jets with the 17th pick (woud allow us to take a RB or OLB/DE). Highest boom or bust option.


I think that the Jets pick would get us the RB we need. We'd have to wait for SD though. But I don't think the Jets have the cap space to give Boldin a new contract, so :shrug:

As far as trading him to a contending rival........no way Mitch! They better not! :nono:
 
Top