The small talk is wearing thin

[capologist]

Originally posted by slinslin
Draft David Harrison next offseason that should be a good center for us and projected where we should pick.

FWIW:

nbadraft.net currently projects 11 centers to go in the draft, and only one of them to go in the lottery, so we may have a lot of options with our first-round pick.

RealGM.com also lists a number of decent free agent centers who will be available next season.

Perhaps the best course of action is to exercise some patience instead of trading for whatever mediocre undersized center happens to be available at the moment.

 

[capologist]

Let’s go GQ:

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

 

[SweetD]

Up and Coming Free Agent C/PF for Suns

I think all these players can come in around the mid level + little bit more

Adonal Foyle - GS
Zeljko Rebracca - DET
Jake Tsakalidis - MEM *RF
Joel Przybilla - MIL *RF
Ruben Boumtje Boumtje - POR
Jarron Collins - UTA
Greg Ostertag - UTA
Etan Thomas - WAS

 

[Errntknght]

I think Battie would be a useful guy - theoretically. But I'm not ready to buy the idea that Frank is moving away from small ball so giving him another center to dork around with will hurt more than help. If he has only Jake to depend on he might stumble over the idea of giving him consistent minutes and treating him like a bona fide member of the team.

Remember how things went last year - when Tsakalildis went out he'd play Jake in a game or two and he'd do fine then FJ would sit him for a week or so. Finally Jake started emulating Bo and chased guards all around the perimeter picking up dumb fouls and Frank dubbed him one of his 'energy' guys and started giving him some PT.

The big question in my mind is whether FJ will let Jake be on the floor if he plays like a center should. Prosaic things like focussing his D in the paint, rebounding, blocking out. IMO, the chances of him doing that are slim but better if he has fewer options. I have no doubt that in his heart of hearts that FJ loves guys that scramble all over the court, disrupting things for the opponents as much as possible - because that was how 4th-Q-Frank played when he was at his best. Outlaw was effective doing it but Jake is close to useless.

Of course I'm thrilled that FJ is talking about the importance of rebounding and not going small etc. but I'll believe it when I see him backing it up with action. He's got to a lot more than that to show he's a legitimate NBA coach but it would be a step in the right direction.

 

[Starbury]

Ok, I know I'm dreaming, but this would be my ideal trade for a center this season...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phoenix trades: PF Tom Gugliotta (4.8 ppg, 3.7 rpg, 1.1 apg in 16.6 minutes)
Phoenix receives: C Zydrunas Illgauskas (17.2 ppg, 7.5 rpg, 1.6 apg in 30.1 minutes)
Change in team outlook: +12.4 ppg, +3.8 rpg, and +0.5 apg.

Cleveland trades: C Zydrunas Illgauskas (17.2 ppg, 7.5 rpg, 1.6 apg in 30.1 minutes)
Cleveland receives: PF Tom Gugliotta (4.8 ppg, 3.7 rpg, 1.1 apg in 27 games)
Change in team outlook: -12.4 ppg, -3.8 rpg, and -0.5 apg.

TRADE ACCEPTED

Due to Phoenix and Cleveland being over the cap, the 15% trade rule is invoked. Phoenix and Cleveland had to be no more than 115% plus $100,000 of the salary given out for the trade to be accepted, which did happen here. This trade satisfies the provisions of the Collective Bargaining Agreement.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Give Cleveland their first round pick back and add in another player and it looks like a good deal. Cleveland clears cap room for next offseason and gets the minutes to develop Diop. "Z" is in Phoenix for 2 years. The Suns could be contenders sooner rather than later.

Only problem, it probably would NEVER happen! Oh well, I can dream can't I?


By the way, what ever happened to Chris Marcus from Western Kentucky? Is he on an NBA roster?

 

[SweetD]

Originally posted by Starbury
Ok, I know I'm dreaming, but this would be my ideal trade for a center this season...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phoenix trades: PF Tom Gugliotta (4.8 ppg, 3.7 rpg, 1.1 apg in 16.6 minutes)
Phoenix receives: C Zydrunas Illgauskas (17.2 ppg, 7.5 rpg, 1.6 apg in 30.1 minutes)
Change in team outlook: +12.4 ppg, +3.8 rpg, and +0.5 apg.

Cleveland trades: C Zydrunas Illgauskas (17.2 ppg, 7.5 rpg, 1.6 apg in 30.1 minutes)
Cleveland receives: PF Tom Gugliotta (4.8 ppg, 3.7 rpg, 1.1 apg in 27 games)
Change in team outlook: -12.4 ppg, -3.8 rpg, and -0.5 apg.

TRADE ACCEPTED

Due to Phoenix and Cleveland being over the cap, the 15% trade rule is invoked. Phoenix and Cleveland had to be no more than 115% plus $100,000 of the salary given out for the trade to be accepted, which did happen here. This trade satisfies the provisions of the Collective Bargaining Agreement.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Give Cleveland their first round pick back and add in another player and it looks like a good deal. Cleveland clears cap room for next offseason and gets the minutes to develop Diop. "Z" is in Phoenix for 2 years. The Suns could be contenders sooner rather than later.

Only problem, it would NEVER happen!

I would even give them back the 1st rounder if they did that... I just would not want to pay Z 14.6mil next year also.

 

[elindholm]

Why not trade Gugliotta and Hardaway to the Lakers for O'Neal?

 

[Starbury]

Originally posted by elindholm
Why not trade Gugliotta and Hardaway to the Lakers for O'Neal?

Ummm HELLO MR. SARCASM? Clearly you are responding to my proposal for Zydrunas. Did you not read when I said it would never happen and it was a "dream trade?" So you think its about as realistic as a trade for O'Neal, huh?

If you don't think its realistic, say so. THERE IS NO NEED TO BE A JERK.

 

[elindholm]

Did you not read when I said it would never happen and it was a "dream trade?" So you think its about as realistic as a trade for O'Neal, huh?

I'm just wondering what makes your dream trade better than mine. As long as we're dreaming about trades that would never happen, I'd rather have O'Neal and get rid of two bloated contracts than have Ilgauskas and get rid of one.

 

[Starbury]

I'm just wondering what makes your dream trade better than mine. As long as we're dreaming about trades that would never happen, I'd rather have O'Neal and get rid of two bloated contracts than have Ilgauskas and get rid of one. [/B][/QUOTE]

OK, lets think about this...Who is more likely to be moved??? The franchise center and most dominant player in the game or a guy who is rarely healthy and will be in Clevland for 2 more years tops. You honestly think Zydrunas will not be moved? I'm willing to be he WILL be moved at some time or another this season or the next. Hmmmm....... I guess the O'Neal for Googs and Hardaway trade makes more sense after I think about it.

It sure is great how if you don't agree with something, the other person is always the idiot. Do you think other people's opinions always wrong? Its a shame they don't have a "give you the finger" icon to attach to messages.

"As long as we're dreaming about trades that would never happen..."

OK tell me MR. ALL KNOWING EXPERT, what is Zydrunas worth? More than a 1st round pick + another player + 14 million in cap room?

Oh wait, I guess this is more "realistic" than my trade isn't it O' NBA Fountain of knowledge?

"Phoenix gets
Kurt Thomas ($5,394,125, player option 2005)

New York gets
Brevin Knight ($5,000,000, 2004)
Casey Jacobsen ($1,011,600, team option 2006)
future first-round pick from Cleveland (lottery protected"

The Knicks trading their best big man and also the second best player on their team for crap, makes more sense than my trade?Oh well, I guess you don't know everything do you?

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

You need to chill out man. As long as I have been a member of this board, people always respond to "dream" trades by some sarcastic counter, or just flaming the person.

Secondly, Eric's trade does make much more sense, since there have been countless reports that Thomas is available with the addition of Deke. Not to mention Thomas said himself will opt out of his contract since his extension talks fell through.

I dont see why you are so confidant Z will be moved. He has 2 years left on an over max deal. Most likely, they will let his contract run out and take the salary relief. As of right now, they only have 13mil commited in salary in 2005. I am assuming they are planning on keeping that room to extend their players

Boozer
Wagner
Miles
and MAYBE Diop

They should still have enough room to lure a max player, maybe even 2 if they play their cards right. With LBJ firmly in place, Cleavland may actually be able to attract some FAs.


No one here claims to be the authority on basketball, however over the past year I have noticed certain peoples specialties.

For example, Slin with international prospects
HCsilla with Cap issues

Most posts made by eric have been based off of facts, and although he does seem a bit more cynical lately, he has always been pretty respectful of other board members.

Personally, I find it a little annoying that a member of around 1 month, with less than 20 posts will attack one of the most respected members of this forum.

Just my 2 cents

Andy

 

[Wally]

All of us are "dreamers"..... We talk about what if we can ge this big C or that big C, but what the H difference would it make anyway, his butt would be warming the bench anyway.

Frank, if you read this, put your money where your mouth is and give the big guys you have a chance to play the # 5 spot as a C. Just the other day I really got a laugh when I read what you said Trybanski would have step up (or something close to that)..... Ho, Ho, Ho..... That's really good.... What's he going to step up for.....Probably to warm up a different spot down the bench so Jake can have a warm seat because he's playing to much like a #5. We all saw how much PT you gave him to "step up" It was about the same amount of time Big Jake got in the playoffs.
Who give a rats butt about getting a center when we all know the only way he'll get to play is if he plays like a guard.

 

[elindholm]

Starbury,

Do you think your Ilgauskas-Gugliotta trade could happen, or not? You described it as "dreaming" and acknowledged that "it would NEVER happen." I agree with you. Then I offered my own dream that would never happen. I really don't understand what you're getting all offended about.

Have you changed your mind? Do you now think that an Ilgauskas-Gugliotta trade is realistic? If you do, then we have something to disagree about. Otherwise, we don't.

 

[Joe Mama]

Originally posted by elindholm
Starbury,

Do you think your Ilgauskas-Gugliotta trade could happen, or not? You described it as "dreaming" and acknowledged that "it would NEVER happen." I agree with you. Then I offered my own dream that would never happen. I really don't understand what you're getting all offended about.

Have you changed your mind? Do you now think that an Ilgauskas-Gugliotta trade is realistic? If you do, then we have something to disagree about. Otherwise, we don't.

If Ilgauskas' start giving him problems again that trade would be realistic.

Joe Mama

 

[F-Dog]

I'll stick up for my fellow newbie--why not?

The difference with the Ilgauskas idea is that it's possible to construct a plausible chain of events which ends with Phoenix getting Ilgauskas--the Suns are awarded Cleveland's pick unconditionally, Ilgauskas demands a trade to a contender, Mihm has a great month, Paxson remains stupid.


Starbury probably felt he was among friends, not people who would slap him down at the first unreasonable hope.


I, myself, am still surprised (and slightly annoyed) by the aggressive pessimism that seems to pervade this board.

 

[elindholm]

Starbury probably felt he was among friends, not people who would slap him down at the first unreasonable hope.

He himself said that "it would NEVER happen." So now I'm being mean if I imply that it would never happen?

Please explain this to me. Are there multiple definitions of "never" that I'm not aware of? Is it okay for someone to say that his own "dream" trade would never happen, but it's not okay for anyone else to say it?

And why am I not allowed to hope that Shaquille O'Neal will be traded to the Suns?

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by elindholm


And why am I not allowed to hope that Shaquille O'Neal will be traded to the Suns?

Because, dummy, that would NEVER happen.

 

[F-Dog]

Originally posted by Chaplin
But here's the catch--we'd need a big center like that ONLY for Shaq and Yao--we wouldn't need that center, really, for any other team. So the question is, is it worth it?

Personally, I like Battie and to a lesser extent, Thomas. We had a big center and Shaq still got his points. We've talked about this for years. How do you beat the Lakers? Not by stopping Shaq, but by stopping the other guys--and for all intents and purposes, all our wins in the past few years have been exactly that.

Here's another way of putting it--the Suns need (at the least) another role player at center, because they don't have anybody with the size and bulk to close down the lane. If they needed an athletic shot-blocker, I would rather have Battie; if they needed toughness and attitude, I would rather have Thomas. However, they've already got those things with Amare, Marion and Marbury.

If Battie or Thomas were significantly better than Ostertag, that would make a difference, but I don't see that there's that much difference between the three in that respect.

Also, the vastly inconsistent minutes Ostertag would receive would be bad for his (already shaky) confidence.

I don't get this at all.

IMO Ostertag's confidence is shaky because he's constantly being asked to do things he's not good at, and then he's yelled at when he messes up. He'd probably be happiest and most confident with limited minutes and responsibility at this point in his career.

It's not like he needs the minutes to develop. What you see is what you get with him.



Anyway, I'm still hoping that the Suns can get a center we'll all like.




(elindholm) "And I hope the Suns travel back in time and win the championship in 2002..." (/elindholm)

 

[Starbury]

Originally posted by elindholm
Starbury probably felt he was among friends, not people who would slap him down at the first unreasonable hope.

He himself said that "it would NEVER happen." So now I'm being mean if I imply that it would never happen?

Please explain this to me. Are there multiple definitions of "never" that I'm not aware of? Is it okay for someone to say that his own "dream" trade would never happen, but it's not okay for anyone else to say it?

And why am I not allowed to hope that Shaquille O'Neal will be traded to the Suns?

Wow, I threw an idea out there, Sorry. Your response was an obvious show of disrespect. Look at it this way: could my trade happen maybe and maybe not.

What got me PO'ed was the obvious show of disrespect. What makes your opinion as a Suns fan any more valuable than mine. Because you have over 1,000 posts? WHO CARES? If you don't think my trade is do-able fine. I said it would PROBABLY never happen, not that it wouldn't happen. It is a possibility.

Last time I checked, $14 million in cap room and a 1st round pick is a pretty good trade offer for a center with chronic injury problems.

Now to your trade suggestion...What makes you think that the Knicks (who earlier wanted Nick Van Exel for Kurt Thomas) would settle on Brevin Knight, Casey Jacobsen, and a 1st rounder. Why is this more realistic than my trade? Do you think they really have that much faith in Mutombo and Doleac to man the center position?

 

[Starbury]

Personally, I find it a little annoying that a member of around 1 month, with less than 20 posts will attack one of the most respected members of this forum.

Just my 2 cents

Andy [/B][/QUOTE]

And its ok for a "veteran" to disrespect a new member for voicing his opinion? Sounds like hypocracy to me.

I've done nothing but show everyone here respect since I started posting here. I've been reading and following everyone's postings since May. Just because I wait to September to register doesn't mean I can have an opinion, "dreaming" or not? I guess because I only have 20 posts I better keep my mouth shut from now on, I didn't know that was how things worked around here.

 

[elindholm]

Look at it this way: could my trade happen maybe and maybe not.

I disagree. And you did, too, before you decided to make this into some sort of personal battle.

If you don't think my trade is do-able fine. I said it would PROBABLY never happen, not that it wouldn't happen. It is a possibility.

Refer to your original post. You wrote no such thing. You wrote, "Only problem, it would NEVER happen." It's right there on the screen. You came right out and said the dream trade was absurd. All I did was agree with you.

What makes you think that the Knicks (who earlier wanted Nick Van Exel for Kurt Thomas) would settle on Brevin Knight, Casey Jacobsen, and a 1st rounder. Why is this more realistic than my trade? Do you think they really have that much faith in Mutombo and Doleac to man the center position?

(And Lampe.) Many reports are that they are trying to move Thomas, and that they've refused to give him the extension that he's looking for. But if you want to say that my trade proposal is ridiculous, I don't have a problem with that. I'll disagree with you, but I won't take it personally.

In my trade proposal, the Knicks get

(a) a point guard who can help them immediately
(b) an immediate reduction in salary (they buy out Ward)
(c) two young players with decent potential (Jacobsen and the pick)

I think that's enough to make it plausible, but if you don't, that's okay.

And its ok for a "veteran" to disrespect a new member for voicing his opinion?

I don't think there should be a double standard between "veterans" and new members. We were all new members once. I had no idea what your post count was until someone brought it up.

But I also don't think people should get all uppity about "disrespect" when someone agrees with them, for crying out loud. In fact, you cannot find any post of mine in this thread that was disrespectful.

It appears that now you have changed your mind, and you think that a Gugliotta-Ilgauskas trade is somewhat realistic. In that case, I now disagree with you. I'm trying to express this in a respectful manner. I just think there is no chance that Cleveland would give away Ilgauskas, one of the best centers in the league when healthy, for the "privilege" of paying Tom Gugliotta $14 million this season (or whatever his salary is after the trade kicker applies).

I guess you'll be joining the short list of posters on this board who find my very presence offensive. I regret that, but I've learned (in interactions with posters who have higher post counts than yours, heh) that there's nothing I can do about it. I'm not going to stop posting, and I'm not going to change my tone when 90%+ of the board has no problem with it.

 

[Starbury]

Originally posted by elindholm
Look at it this way: could my trade happen maybe and maybe not.

I disagree. And you did, too, before you decided to make this into some sort of personal battle.

If you don't think my trade is do-able fine. I said it would PROBABLY never happen, not that it wouldn't happen. It is a possibility.

Refer to your original post. You wrote no such thing. You wrote, "Only problem, it would NEVER happen." It's right there on the screen. You came right out and said the dream trade was absurd. All I did was agree with you.

What makes you think that the Knicks (who earlier wanted Nick Van Exel for Kurt Thomas) would settle on Brevin Knight, Casey Jacobsen, and a 1st rounder. Why is this more realistic than my trade? Do you think they really have that much faith in Mutombo and Doleac to man the center position?

(And Lampe.) Many reports are that they are trying to move Thomas, and that they've refused to give him the extension that he's looking for. But if you want to say that my trade proposal is ridiculous, I don't have a problem with that. I'll disagree with you, but I won't take it personally.

In my trade proposal, the Knicks get

(a) a point guard who can help them immediately
(b) an immediate reduction in salary (they buy out Ward)
(c) two young players with decent potential (Jacobsen and the pick)

I think that's enough to make it plausible, but if you don't, that's okay.

And its ok for a "veteran" to disrespect a new member for voicing his opinion?

I don't think there should be a double standard between "veterans" and new members. We were all new members once. I had no idea what your post count was until someone brought it up.

But I also don't think people should get all uppity about "disrespect" when someone agrees with them, for crying out loud. In fact, you cannot find any post of mine in this thread that was disrespectful.

It appears that now you have changed your mind, and you think that a Gugliotta-Ilgauskas trade is somewhat realistic. In that case, I now disagree with you. I'm trying to express this in a respectful manner. I just think there is no chance that Cleveland would give away Ilgauskas, one of the best centers in the league when healthy, for the "privilege" of paying Tom Gugliotta $14 million this season (or whatever his salary is after the trade kicker applies).

I guess you'll be joining the short list of posters on this board who find my very presence offensive. I regret that, but I've learned (in interactions with posters who have higher post counts than yours, heh) that there's nothing I can do about it. I'm not going to stop posting, and I'm not going to change my tone when 90%+ of the board has no problem with it.

(In robotic tone)

I agree with everything you say....My opinions are absurd and meaningless...I will never again question the infinite knowledge and wisdom of the high post veterans of this board.

In all seriousness, why do I think my trade could happen and yours couldn't?
The Knicks think (wrongly so in my opinion) that they are contenders in the East. I don't feel that they would think Brevin Knight and Casey Jacobsen would help the team more than Kurt Thomas would.

The Cavs on the other hand KNOW they are not contenders and will be building around a core of James--Davis--Miles--Boozer--Wagner--maybe Diop. I don't know where you get the idea that they would get the "luxury" of paying Googs contract. His contract is 1 year shorter than Z's, thus more cap room to recruit/resign their own FA's after this season. THAT is the point I was trying to make.


Did you not see where I said give them a 1st rounder and another player for Ilgauskas? I think 14 million in cap space + 1st round pick + (insert player here) is enough

In a world where an All-Star player (Glenn Robinson) can be traded for a retired player/cap room (Terrell Brandon) ANYTHING is possible

"And Lampe.)"
I don't think they're expecting much out of him this season, at least not at the Center position

 

[elindholm]

(In robotic tone)

I agree with everything you say....My opinions are absurd and meaningless...I will never again question the infinite knowledge and wisdom of the high post veterans of this board

As long as you aren't being sarcastic. That would be disrespectful.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Originally posted by Starbury
(In robotic tone)

I agree with everything you say....My opinions are absurd and meaningless...I will never again question the infinite knowledge and wisdom of the high post veterans of this board

This thread has certainly run it's course. I in most part, agree with eric, because his argument makes more sense. His style may appear condescending through his lawyer-like presentation of argument, but rarely do I percieve it to be antagonistic. Don't get all emotional when people disagree with you, and don't take it personally. It happens. Welcome to the board!

 

[Starbury]

Originally posted by ASUCHRIS
This thread has certainly run it's course. I in most part, agree with eric, because his argument makes more sense. His style may appear condescending through his lawyer-like presentation of argument, but rarely do I percieve it to be antagonistic. Don't get all emotional when people disagree with you, and don't take it personally. It happens. Welcome to the board!

Reading between the lines of comparing my trade and a Shaq for Penny/Googs trade is more or less calling me an idiot and disrespecting me. And I don't know HOW that is not obvious to anyone. I could care less if he agrees or not, its how he disagreed that was uncalled for

"As long as you aren't being sarcastic. That would be disrespectful."

Ha Ha. You're a funny one aren't ya?

Oh well, I'm out. Back to azcentral.com I go...