The Suns are a prime example of mismanagement!

CardShark

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When you read the title of this thread you probably think of the Shaq/Marion trade. That was just a last minute desperation shot. The Suns were oh so close to having that championship team, but they were done in by financial mismanagement. Money became the deciding factor of the Suns. They overpaid players like Marion, Diaw and Thomas and it left no room to bring in players that could give them that extra push. So do the Suns trade away one of their starters for a player or players that can get them to the finals? Do they get the cap space that allows them to pursue the player or players they need? They did neither. I'm not against Shaq being in a Suns uniform, in fact I think he can help. The $20 mil a year is what I have the problem with. It leaves no room to get the kind of players that provide the Suns their identity. That of the fastest, most prolific offensive team in the league. They had to trade off KT along with draft picks to avoid a hefty luxury tax. They sold draft picks for cash, but those weren't just draft picks. They were young players that might have helped this team. They were the future. This happened before the trade for Shaq. That trade only emphasizes that the Suns have lost their identity and what made them contenders. Of course it's just my opinion, but I don't think this team has a chance in hell of winning a championship.

Now this team played poorly before Shaq was here, so maybe they weren't going to win it anyway. I felt that was due to a hangover from last years playoff fiasco. Kind of like how the loser of the SuperBowl usually goes into a funk the following season. The players may not say it, but hasn't everyone in Phoenix felt jobbed with that officiating heist? I think the players have put on their game face and said last year doesn't matter. I can't believe their is no lingering effect. I know as a fan there is and maybe it's where the team and fans have grown apart. What I mean is that the fans were still angry and they wanted the team to dominate their opponents, to crush them. Then in the first game against the Lakers, the Suns played so poorly that the fans outright booed them. What was the response from the players? "It's a long season and it's about the playoffs." Were they really putting that game into perspective or have they lost their fire. I tend to think it was the latter. So how do they get it back? They could play through and hope for something to ignite it, but Nash said it was no longer fun. Well fun and exciting was the spark, the catalyst for this team. Without that the Suns needed to add someone that could re-energize them. Enter Shaq. He's a presence on the court, but not the dominating presence the Suns needed. Yes all of the team said they were excited again, but it cost them another piece of their offense. Now it seems as though the Suns only have two legitmate threats from long range. It makes it much easier to guard this team. It won't be long before all the fun is gone again unless Kerr can make the right moves in time. They have to add not one but two more players before all is lost. Barry and Cassell. Barry is the outside shooter the Suns need and Cassell is the court gneral to run the offense with Nash on the bench. Of course we know that won't happen because the money is dictating the Suns at this point. That my friends is a direct result of mismanaging this team.

Of course I could be full of crap and just venting about what I see out on the floor these days.
 

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For me it will always be the fact that we let Tim Thomas go. It is not very often you find a player that just insta-plugs perfectly into your system and brings fire, swagger, nastiness, and serious playoff competitiveness by stepping up his game in the post-season. The fact that he was searing from the 3 point line in our system was just the biggest simplest factor bar none though. He might not look that great on the clippers, but that is the clippers. He is only ok in that type of system.

If Shaq doesn't pan out then we were screwed either way with Shaq or Marion, but if we would have had the extra firepower of Tim Thomas last year and this year, could that little extra zing have gotten us over the hump? I definately think so.

Worst off we used the money on banks instead, who was the exact opposite of Tim Thomas aka didn't fit in whatsoever.

THAT is bad management, then after that the KT trade happend. So at that point we are reaching the level of HORRIBLE management.

I hope we recover from this pathetic detoit loss, but this just might be it... The fork might now be stuck in us because of those 2 horrible, deplorably bad moves.
 
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CardShark

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For me it will always be the fact that we let Tim Thomas go. It is not very often you find a player that just insta-plugs perfectly into your system and brings fire, swagger, nastiness, and serious playoff competitiveness by stepping up his game in the post-season. The fact that he was searing from the 3 point line in our system was just the biggest simplest factor bar none though. He might not look that great on the clippers, but that is the clippers. He is only ok in that type of system.

If Shaq doesn't pan out then we were screwed either way with Shaq or Marion, but if we would have had the extra firepower of Tim Thomas last year and this year, could that little extra zing have gotten us over the hump? I definately think so.

Worst off we used the money on banks instead, who was the exact opposite of Tim Thomas aka didn't fit in whatsoever.



THAT is bad management, then after that the KT trade happend. So at that point we are reaching the level of HORRIBLE management.

I hope we recover from this pathetic detoit loss, but this just might be it... The fork might now be stuck in us because of those 2 horrible, deplorably bad moves.

As I recall, the Suns offered him a deal and he chose LA. Maybe they should have gotten a contract done before he hit F/A. I just think that when you start paying any of your players more than 10 mil per year they need to absolutely dominate a game or it really cuts your options.
 

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The suns offered him 4 million per year over 3 years. The Clips then offered 6 million per year for 4 years.

4 million was almost a steal IMO, while 6 might be overpaying just a bit. Well when you have somebody who fits so well in your system overpaying a bit shouldn't be that big of a deal.

Suns let him go to LA over 2 million per year.

*edit: Yet then they sign a completely unproven marcus banks to 4 million per for 5 years, and overpay for diaw because of the stupid nene deal.
 
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gdiddy

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The team has lost it's identity, pure and simple. What Brian Colangelo built has all but disappeared. Now we're in the middle of trying to recreate our offense. The half court offense is not going to work, and the high speed fast-break offense that fans have been accustomed to is now gone.

Shaq was a gamble--a very stupid gamble. This team was once able to get by with average players like James Jones and Tim Thomas. And all this talk about Shaq getting the team a championship is nonsense.

Our problem these past few years had more to do with a limited bench and lack of a viable backup for Steve. Did we solve those problems? Of course not, because the everybody is out there trying to copy San Antonio. We're trying to find an answer for Tim Duncan. We're trying to build a better defense, when the whole defense argument was smoke and mirrors.

These last two games were the most painful and boring games I had to watch. To see Shaq missing a freaking layup right underneath the basket is ridiculous.

Maybe Phil Jackson had a point when he was making fun of the big cactus.
 

MaoTosiFanClub

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As I recall, the Suns offered him a deal and he chose LA. Maybe they should have gotten a contract done before he hit F/A. I just think that when you start paying any of your players more than 10 mil per year they need to absolutely dominate a game or it really cuts your options.
The Suns lowballed him, just like they lowballed Joe Johnson twice.

Really there is very little way to improve this team going forward other than picking up guys off the scrap heap. The Suns have no young players with cheap salaries that anybody wants, no draft picks other than the Atlanta, and no expiring contracts. The embarrassing firesale of draft picks is killing this team's ability to maneuver right now.
 
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CardShark

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The suns offered him 4 million per year over 3 years. The Clips then offered 6 million per year for 4 years.

4 million was almost a steal IMO, while 6 might be overpaying just a bit. Well when you have somebody who fits so well in your system overpaying a bit shouldn't be that big of a deal.

Suns let him go to LA over 2 million per year.

*edit: Yet then they sign a completely unproven marcus banks to 4 million per for 5 years, and overpay for diaw because of the stupid nene deal.

I wish they would have matched the offer then. He did fit well here.

I just can't dismiss that they agreed to pay Marion, Diaw, KT and now Shaq what they did. In my opinion a player should not make over $10 mil per year unless they are in the top 5 of their position in the league.
 

mjb21aztd

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god its funny we win vs the celtics and everyone is on the bandwagon, then we lose to the pistons and a ton of people jump off the bandwagon those are not true fans imo. A real fan will stand by his team and no matter what happens they won't say i no longer support the suns or season is over after one bad game come on guys.
 

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just wait till the playoffs..
see what Shaq can really do.

We saw what he could do, last year, coming up empty after winning a championship the year before and having his team get swept by the Bulls.

Tim Duncan is an effective presence not merely because of his size, but because the dude can put up 20+ points. Same goes for Rasheed Wallace, Dwight Howard, Pau Gasol, etc.

Shaq couldn't even shoot the ball into the ocean.

It's just not fair to dump Marion after all the years he's been with the franchise. He shouldered a lot of the burden to help get this team through the seasons, and this is how they reward him.
 

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just wait till the playoffs..
see what Shaq can really do.

Im sorry, but Shaq is looking old again. He's missing easy baskets, baskets he used to convert a few years back. No explosiveness at all.

And i told a few of you a couple days ago that Shaq must still be experiencing some pain or discomfort. Again vs the Celtics i noticed him grimace. Something still isnt right with him. You can talk about working him into the offense and exercising some patience but im not seeing him being able to exert any force at all on the block. Now i know its a bit too early for you guys to panic but the game vs the Hornets coming up and the game vs the Spurs is gonna tell alot about where you are overall. 16 and 17 pt quarter outputs, while playing very poor defense is gonna net you results similar to what you witnessed today.
 

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I'll give it 4-5 games max. If nothing happens, kiss the season goodbye. There are too many good teams vying for the prize to be sitting around with thumbs up their behinds.
 

Yuma

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Marion moving to South Beach wasn't so bad. We could have stuck him in some NBA hell hole.

I am disappointed, but Shaq is a work in progress so far. The dude probably shouldn't be playing so soon because he doesn't have his lift back yet.

I agree on the money part, though. We are so up against the cap it's not funny. At some point we will have to rebuild with the ages of Nash, Shaq, and Hill taken into consideration. That's when it REALLY gets interesting!
 

DuncanRules

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I'll give it 4-5 games max. If nothing happens, kiss the season goodbye. There are too many good teams vying for the prize to be sitting around with thumbs up their behinds.

Honestly, I'd give it a little more time than that. I thought the Shaq trade was bad for Phoenix, but I think it's way too soon to judge. I'd give it at least 3 weeks....and maybe longer. Cause this was a trade meant for the post-season, not the regular season.

I would love to declare the newlook Suns a bust, but I know better than to count my chickens before Shaq hatches.
 

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The team has lost it's identity, pure and simple. What Brian Colangelo built has all but disappeared. Now we're in the middle of trying to recreate our offense. The half court offense is not going to work, and the high speed fast-break offense that fans have been accustomed to is now gone.

Well, at least until they win next. We beat the Celtics by playing a rough game--today was just a bad, bad day. If you wanna jump off the cliff, be my guest. Anyone with any knowledge of common sense would realize that a) it's only Shaq's 3rd game, and b) he played only 4 freaking games in the month BEFORE he was acquired. The spacing is still bad, and because our practices are fast break vs. fast break, the only way guys are going to learn the new spacing is by doing it in games. If you don't realize that, well, maybe basketball isn't your sport.
Shaq was a gamble--a very stupid gamble. This team was once able to get by with average players like James Jones and Tim Thomas. And all this talk about Shaq getting the team a championship is nonsense.

Our problem these past few years had more to do with a limited bench and lack of a viable backup for Steve. Did we solve those problems? Of course not, because the everybody is out there trying to copy San Antonio. We're trying to find an answer for Tim Duncan. We're trying to build a better defense, when the whole defense argument was smoke and mirrors.

These last two games were the most painful and boring games I had to watch. To see Shaq missing a freaking layup right underneath the basket is ridiculous.

Maybe Phil Jackson had a point when he was making fun of the big cactus.

Maybe you should change your name to TheBigOverreactor.
 
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CardShark

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god its funny we win vs the celtics and everyone is on the bandwagon, then we lose to the pistons and a ton of people jump off the bandwagon those are not true fans imo. A real fan will stand by his team and no matter what happens they won't say i no longer support the suns or season is over after one bad game come on guys.

It's not about being a bandwagon fan. It's not about one game. It's about the Suns inability to score points.What's their average since the trade? It's not even that. It's that they have lost their identity and don't have the players to get it back and can't get those players because they mismanaged the cap so badly. I like Shaq, but not for $20 mil per year. Where were the Suns when the Gasol deal was going down? Probably looking for another way to get further under the cap. The worst part of the Shaq deal is that it extends the cap hell. If by some fortune the Suns end up one of the top 3 picks in the draft, will they have the space to sign him? I'll expect them to trade down or sell or both.
 

dodie53

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imo,
getting Shaq is ok.

if he helps the suns get their 1st championship, great!

if not,
after he and nash retires,
the suns will have a ton of money to spend..

and the team will be amare's!
he will be the focal point of the offense,
he will shoot 40 times a game if necessary.

the suns will be one of the elite teams starring amare, diaw, barbosa and strawberry and atl pick.
 

82CardsGrad

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imo,
getting Shaq is ok.

if he helps the suns get their 1st championship, great!

if not,
after he and nash retires,
the suns will have a ton of money to spend..

and the team will be amare's!
he will be the focal point of the offense,
he will shoot 40 times a game if necessary.

the suns will be one of the elite teams starring amare, diaw, barbosa and strawberry and atl pick.

Unless that "atl. pick" turns into the best defender in the history of the NBA, that line-up will most certainly NOT be an "elite" team!

:bang:
 

Agloco

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The team has lost it's identity, pure and simple. What Brian Colangelo built has all but disappeared. Now we're in the middle of trying to recreate our offense. The half court offense is not going to work, and the high speed fast-break offense that fans have been accustomed to is now gone.

Shaq was a gamble--a very stupid gamble. This team was once able to get by with average players like James Jones and Tim Thomas. And all this talk about Shaq getting the team a championship is nonsense.

Our problem these past few years had more to do with a limited bench and lack of a viable backup for Steve. Did we solve those problems? Of course not, because the everybody is out there trying to copy San Antonio. We're trying to find an answer for Tim Duncan. We're trying to build a better defense, when the whole defense argument was smoke and mirrors.

These last two games were the most painful and boring games I had to watch. To see Shaq missing a freaking layup right underneath the basket is ridiculous.

Maybe Phil Jackson had a point when he was making fun of the big cactus.

;)

Bad part is.....there isn't an answer for Timmy. There hasn't been since he entered the league. He's the best period. There's no reason to hate your management over this move. It's a decision that was based on sound fundamentals. Unfortunately, Shaq is not the player he used to be and apparently he's got a lot less in the tank than most realized.

I think your post outlines a basic fault with the Suns. They've lost their identity. Unless Shaq has another gear, I'm not sure what you guys are going to do. Detroit jumped all over you guys today. Marion's importance to you guys is quickly becoming evident.

Perhaps this move winds up being a great one. Shaq has gotta find another gear that he hasn't had in a few years though.
 

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Well, at least until they win next. We beat the Celtics by playing a rough game--today was just a bad, bad day. If you wanna jump off the cliff, be my guest. Anyone with any knowledge of common sense would realize that a) it's only Shaq's 3rd game, and b) he played only 4 freaking games in the month BEFORE he was acquired. The spacing is still bad, and because our practices are fast break vs. fast break, the only way guys are going to learn the new spacing is by doing it in games. If you don't realize that, well, maybe basketball isn't your sport.

couldn't agree more. and besides, didn't trading banks and marion actually SAVE us money? but hey, let's not let logic get in the way of an overreaction.
 
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green machine

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;)

Bad part is.....there isn't an answer for Timmy. There hasn't been since he entered the league. He's the best period. There's no reason to hate your management over this move. It's a decision that was based on sound fundamentals. Unfortunately, Shaq is not the player he used to be and apparently he's got a lot less in the tank than most realized.

I think your post outlines a basic fault with the Suns. They've lost their identity. Unless Shaq has another gear, I'm not sure what you guys are going to do. Detroit jumped all over you guys today. Marion's importance to you guys is quickly becoming evident.

Perhaps this move winds up being a great one. Shaq has gotta find another gear that he hasn't had in a few years though.


After three games this is what we have concluded? Maybe Shaq meant more to the Heat then they realized, since they haven't won a game since he was traded. :rolleyes:
 

Agloco

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After three games this is what we have concluded? Maybe Shaq meant more to the Heat then they realized, since they haven't won a game since he was traded. :rolleyes:

Give me another conclusion you'd draw after what's unfolded...... sure we can qualify this with "after 3 games" or whatever BUT:

You'd be hard pressed to argue that Shaq will kick it up a notch at some point eh?

Your argument is moot as the Heat were losers before Shaq left. His departure has done nothing to change that dynamic.

Marion's departure has changed a few things for you guys. Check your latest box scores. Scary to say the least.

Are you maintaining that his departure and these latest happenings are mere coincidence? Would you acknowledge that they are correlated at all?

Again, this might wind up working. Im just not seeing it though without Shaq taking a dip in the Fountain of Youth along the way.
 

green machine

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Give me another conclusion you'd draw after what's unfolded...... sure we can qualify this with "after 3 games" or whatever BUT:

You'd be hard pressed to argue that Shaq will kick it up a notch at some point eh?

Your argument is moot as the Heat were losers before Shaq left. His departure has done nothing to change that dynamic.

Marion's departure has changed a few things for you guys. Check your latest box scores. Scary to say the least.

Are you maintaining that his departure and these latest happenings are mere coincidence? Would you acknowledge that they are correlated at all?

Again, this might wind up working. Im just not seeing it though without Shaq taking a dip in the Fountain of Youth along the way.


I will say that yes, the trade has had a really big impact since it happened, and since Shaq has actually started to play things have been very different.

But me, I've seen enough to see where this could take the Suns, especially when everyone gets a feel for everyone else out there.

As far as the box scores since Marion was traded, the only one that concerns me is today's, and I think it was just one of those games. Marion wouldn't have helped at all this game either, not in the least.
 

Darth Llama

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Why is it that when a fan of a team points out things they see as a problem, they are labeled with that "bandwagon" fan tag? It's one thing if you have an emotional poster who changes tone every day depending on rather the last game was a win or loss, but when a fan comes forward with a well structured post illustrating good points, do we really have to pull the whole "bandwagon" card on him/her? The guy has some good points, if you don't agree, cool, debate the issue, but take it easy on the "your not a fan" talk, that's really just not cool.

Now this team played poorly before Shaq was here, so maybe they weren't going to win it anyway.

This is the only part of your post I really disagree with. On the day the Suns made the Shaq deal, they were leading the Western Conference. Yes, by a narrow margin, but that's just the west. Right now the Lakers are #1 seed. They are 5 games up on the 9th seed, that's how close things are. Phoenix, LA and the Hornets have all been within .5 of each other for a month. The Suns were not playing poorly, they were right there in the thick of it for home court the entire time. They weren't playing as well as they were last year, but it was obvious why. More competition. Last year, the race wasn't this tight, the Lakers weren't good, the Hornets were a joke, hell, right now even the Rockets are winning games.

The most amazing thing was that the Suns pulled a blockbuster deal and shook up their core while leading the west. Last year, we all know what happened with the Suns and Spurs. Many Suns fans feel that had the suspensions not come down (or had they come down equally on both teams) that the Suns would have won that series, and eventually the title. If that's the case, why shake up the team? That core never got their chance to prove they could have done it. The Shaq trade is not a bad move per say, Shaq still has some game, but I will honestly never understand how they could break up that team without taking one more shot. Take my opinion for what it is, the view of an "outsider," but I have to agree that the Suns seem to have sold their identity. With Shaq they just don't feel like "The Suns." Don't take todays game as an example, the Suns are still going to be right up there at the top. The Pistons had a great day, the Suns had a bad day, it happens. I'm just shocked that the Suns paid $20 million a year to break up the core of a 1st place team.

One last note, if they keep playing Shaq 30+ min a game, it's going to be a short playoffs, because he'll be on the bench hurt. They need to cut his minutes.
 

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I was on the track running while watching this game. Lemme tell you I think I ran faster than most of the guys on the team. Uninterested? Out of focus? Yep. They looked like they didn't care. I dont think the Suns were there today. Some days it happens. Let's hope its not this bad for the rest of the season.
 

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