The Suns are a prime example of mismanagement!

[green machine]

Why is it that when a fan of a team points out things they see as a problem, they are labeled with that "bandwagon" fan tag? It's one thing if you have an emotional poster who changes tone every day depending on rather the last game was a win or loss, but when a fan comes forward with a well structured post illustrating good points, do we really have to pull the whole "bandwagon" card on him/her? The guy has some good points, if you don't agree, cool, debate the issue, but take it easy on the "your not a fan" talk, that's really just not cool.



This is the only part of your post I really disagree with. On the day the Suns made the Shaq deal, they were leading the Western Conference. Yes, by a narrow margin, but that's just the west. Right now the Lakers are #1 seed. They are 5 games up on the 9th seed, that's how close things are. Phoenix, LA and the Hornets have all been within .5 of each other for a month. The Suns were not playing poorly, they were right there in the thick of it for home court the entire time. They weren't playing as well as they were last year, but it was obvious why. More competition. Last year, the race wasn't this tight, the Lakers weren't good, the Hornets were a joke, hell, right now even the Rockets are winning games.

The most amazing thing was that the Suns pulled a blockbuster deal and shook up their core while leading the west. Last year, we all know what happened with the Suns and Spurs. Many Suns fans feel that had the suspensions not come down (or had they come down equally on both teams) that the Suns would have won that series, and eventually the title. If that's the case, why shake up the team? That core never got their chance to prove they could have done it. The Shaq trade is not a bad move per say, Shaq still has some game, but I will honestly never understand how they could break up that team without taking one more shot. Take my opinion for what it is, the view of an "outsider," but I have to agree that the Suns seem to have sold their identity. With Shaq they just don't feel like "The Suns." Don't take todays game as an example, the Suns are still going to be right up there at the top. The Pistons had a great day, the Suns had a bad day, it happens. I'm just shocked that the Suns paid $20 million a year to break up the core of a 1st place team.

One last note, if they keep playing Shaq 30+ min a game, it's going to be a short playoffs, because he'll be on the bench hurt. They need to cut his minutes.

First off, let me say that I think that you're a not-sucky Lakers fan.

As for this part, I think that last year's team would not have a chance against this year's west. As you pointed out, the West is far tougher and deeper this year as opposed to last, and given the current landscape I don't think last year's team would have made it through either.

 

[Darth Llama]

I was on the track running while watching this game. Lemme tell you I think I ran faster than most of the guys on the team. Uninterested? Out of focus? Yep. They looked like they didn't care. I dont think the Suns were there today. Some days it happens. Let's hope its not this bad for the rest of the season.

Disinterested in such a big game? That's far more of a concern then the final score. They weren't playing against the Atlanta Hawks, this was a big game. If they can't get up for the Pistons at home, they should just call it a season, sorry.

 

[CardShark]

Again, this might wind up working. Im just not seeing it though without Shaq taking a dip in the Fountain of Youth along the way.

Exactly where is that again? I think I'm interested in that myself.

 

[elindholm]

A normal championship window is only a few years. Key players age, finances dictate personnel moves, teammates get sick of each other, opponents adjust. The Spurs are very unusual in having been an elite team for six years with essentially the same core. Even the Jordan/Pippen Bulls had some major roster changes between their two championship waves.

The Suns' only real problem is that they couldn't seize the opportunity when it presented itself. It doesn't really matter whether it was the fault of injuries, or officiating, or mental lapses, or bad luck. They had three chances and didn't cash in. Look at the Kings of the early decade or the Mavericks now. You get a few chances and that's it.

Fans always get excited about the fantasy of having a great team for years on end, with each new addition being groomed into the star replacement for the fading brilliant veteran. That really doesn't work. An elite team has a life cycle, and the most one can hope for is a slight postponement of the inevitable.

The Suns bought themselves another year and a half of hope in the form of O'Neal's monster salary. It was a risky decision, but I personally am at peace with it.

 

[Darth Llama]

First off, let me say that I think that you're a not-sucky Lakers fan.

Thanks dude.. you're ok for a Suns Fan too.

As for this part, I think that last year's team would not have a chance against this year's west. As you pointed out, the West is far tougher and deeper this year as opposed to last, and given the current landscape I don't think last year's team would have made it through either.

Maybe you're right, but I don't see how the Pre-Shaq version wouldn't have had a chance. They were in 1st place without Shaq, they were on pace to win like 4 less games then last year or something (Sorry, I forget their record.) I honestly think that as an outsider, I saw the Suns in a different light then their fans. Granted, their fans watch every game and generally they would have the more accurate view. I still saw the Suns as the favorite to win the West before the Shaq trade. I also have a much higher opinion of Marion then most here. I really felt Marion was key to a lot of what the Suns did, and I think over time that loss will become more and more profound. Maybe I'm wrong, again, I know far more about my own team, it just seemed an odd move. I thought the core deserved another shot at the Spurs personally.

 

[gdiddy]

Flip Saunders had the following to say after the game:

“They had an identity of how they played when they had Shawn,” the Pistons coach said. “Their identity is going to adapt. I still they they’re going to be a better playoff-type team because of the people they have.”

Link

While I don't agree with him on the second point, he's spot on with the first point.

 

[gdiddy]

Bad part is.....there isn't an answer for Timmy. There hasn't been since he entered the league. He's the best period. There's no reason to hate your management over this move. It's a decision that was based on sound fundamentals. Unfortunately, Shaq is not the player he used to be and apparently he's got a lot less in the tank than most realized.

I think your post outlines a basic fault with the Suns. They've lost their identity. Unless Shaq has another gear, I'm not sure what you guys are going to do. Detroit jumped all over you guys today. Marion's importance to you guys is quickly becoming evident.

Perhaps this move winds up being a great one. Shaq has gotta find another gear that he hasn't had in a few years though.

Our answer to Duncan last season was Kurt Thomas. Now those two are teammates. It's pretty sad when you think about it.

The Suns are victim to the if-you-can't-beat-em-join-em mentality. And what's worse, the Lakers are starting to look the new version of the Phoenix Suns

 

[Phade]

ill bump this thread when we are in the finals.. one bad game for you all to start pointing fingers.. just shut up and enjoy the season..

 

[Darth Llama]

The answer to Tim Duncan is the same as the answer to Kobe Bryant.

1. Realize you won't stop them, period.

2. Put someone on them to just try and contain them as well as you can.

3. Attack their team mates and make Tim/Kobe do it all alone.

You're not going to find a player to take out Duncan, Bryant, or a player like that. The best you can do is hope to contain them. What you do is bring in players that match up well against the other people on the team and try and make that superstar beat you alone. That's how you win, not by trying to match him 1 on 1. That's never worked.

 

[CardShark]

Why is it that when a fan of a team points out things they see as a problem, they are labeled with that "bandwagon" fan tag? It's one thing if you have an emotional poster who changes tone every day depending on rather the last game was a win or loss, but when a fan comes forward with a well structured post illustrating good points, do we really have to pull the whole "bandwagon" card on him/her? The guy has some good points, if you don't agree, cool, debate the issue, but take it easy on the "your not a fan" talk, that's really just not cool.



This is the only part of your post I really disagree with. On the day the Suns made the Shaq deal, they were leading the Western Conference. Yes, by a narrow margin, but that's just the west. Right now the Lakers are #1 seed. They are 5 games up on the 9th seed, that's how close things are. Phoenix, LA and the Hornets have all been within .5 of each other for a month. The Suns were not playing poorly, they were right there in the thick of it for home court the entire time. They weren't playing as well as they were last year, but it was obvious why. More competition. Last year, the race wasn't this tight, the Lakers weren't good, the Hornets were a joke, hell, right now even the Rockets are winning games.

The most amazing thing was that the Suns pulled a blockbuster deal and shook up their core while leading the west. Last year, we all know what happened with the Suns and Spurs. Many Suns fans feel that had the suspensions not come down (or had they come down equally on both teams) that the Suns would have won that series, and eventually the title. If that's the case, why shake up the team? That core never got their chance to prove they could have done it. The Shaq trade is not a bad move per say, Shaq still has some game, but I will honestly never understand how they could break up that team without taking one more shot. Take my opinion for what it is, the view of an "outsider," but I have to agree that the Suns seem to have sold their identity. With Shaq they just don't feel like "The Suns." Don't take todays game as an example, the Suns are still going to be right up there at the top. The Pistons had a great day, the Suns had a bad day, it happens. I'm just shocked that the Suns paid $20 million a year to break up the core of a 1st place team.

One last note, if they keep playing Shaq 30+ min a game, it's going to be a short playoffs, because he'll be on the bench hurt. They need to cut his minutes.

Sorry, I didn't mean overall for the season, just in various games. They continually lost to the worst and the best of the league with the weakest area being the rebounding. Alot of games they were able to overcome it, but they probably wouldn't in the playoffs. Now they've gone to essentially two perimeter shooters that command attention but with an interior player that gets you roughly the same rebounds as the player you traded away. The difference is that you gave away a 10 - 15 points a game in that trade. The Suns may have been at the top of the conference before the trade, but they were not playing as well as they were in the last 3 years. Unless they can pick up some more offense, I have strong doubts that they'll even make the playoffs. If the west wasn't as strong as it is, they probably would. I doubt any "Detroit/San Antonio" team will agree, but I think the Suns have morphed the NBA into playing both styles of the game. The problem for the Suns is that they can't unless they find some more offense and it's not on their bench.

 

[Darth Llama]

Unless they can pick up some more offense, I have strong doubts that they'll even make the playoffs.

Let's try not to press the proverbial "panic button" here. I know that Suns fans feel down after the fluke loss today, but I see no way the Suns don't finish the Season either 1st or 2nd in the Pacific.

 

[CardShark]

Let's try not to press the proverbial "panic button" here. I know that Suns fans feel down after the fluke loss today, but I see no way the Suns don't finish the Season either 1st or 2nd in the Pacific.

As Nash goes, so go the Suns. Spreading the floor is what makes Nash successful. You sread the floor with sharpshooters on the perimeter. Without those shooters the defense collapses and it chokes off the lanes for Nash. Nash and Barbosa are the only consistent threats behind the 3pt line. If the Suns can't find their offense they'll finish 8th or 9th in the conference. Even if they find their offense they'll most lilely end up 2nd in the division behind the Lakers if Bynum returns healthy. Maybe someone will grab Kobe's finger and force him into surgery. The Suns have the toughest remaing schedule for the rest of the year, so it's quite possible for them to fall out of the west.

 

[Mainstreet]

Let's try not to press the proverbial "panic button" here. I know that Suns fans feel down after the fluke loss today, but I see no way the Suns don't finish the Season either 1st or 2nd in the Pacific.

The Suns loss today was a lot of things but it definitely was not a fluke.

 

[Mr Bottomtooth]

Although my reaction to the Shaq trade was that it was a bad trade for Phoenix, I will still wait it out and give Shaq about another 10 games to see the final judgement of the trade.

 

[jagu]

The Suns look confused on offense. They are trying to incorporate a whole new style now rather than frantically running down the court and shooting. This slower pace must be affecting the shooters normal rythm of run and gun. I hope it clicks soon because we can't afford to lose a lot of games in the season this year.

Go Suns. Win or lose I'm with ya. We weren't going to win with Marion so this version of the Suns is worth a try.

 

[JCSunsfan]

There has been mismanagement. Hopefully they will learn. I do think that not signing Tim Thomas is irrelavent. Here are the key issues.

1. Blowing the draft. Trading out of a top 10 pick in which they could have gotten the player that they wanted (Iggy) was a huge blunder. Selling picks. Failing to develop a young stable of players. This would be a complete team right now if we had just drafted Iggy and Rondo. Marion would have been expendable long ago and we would probably have some pretty good picks stored up for the future. We would still have KT on the team instead of Shaq. Its hard to know exactly how things would be, but it would have to be better.

2. Trading future picks without protection. This is just plain stupid. We NEVER get picks without protection. Why would we sell picks without protection? Anything can happen in this league. You might see a window closing and go for it all in one year, then you end up bottom of the pack the next. But no picks, no way to rebuild.

3. Signing unusable veterans for the end of the bench. The Pike signing just doesn't make sense. Why not sign a rookie that you can develop. Get a big project guy. I know the upside is small, but it is better than NO upside.

4. Letting Bryan Colangelo go was foolish. Steve Kerr made a comment about letting Eddie House go and signing "Marcus Banks "Yeah, it looks like we outsmarted ourselves with that one." Yeah, in a nutshell, that's it. That's the problem.

This isn't just about a loss. I am still glad that Shaq is here. I am not going to read too much into this. But the loss does remind us that the window is closing and the cupboard afterwards is quite bare.

 

[D-Dogg]

First off, let me say that I think that you're a not-sucky Lakers fan.

As for this part, I think that last year's team would not have a chance against this year's west. As you pointed out, the West is far tougher and deeper this year as opposed to last, and given the current landscape I don't think last year's team would have made it through either.

I'll add to this as well. When the Lakers made the trade for Gasol, the Suns were backed into a corner because they could NOT defend against Bynum-Gasol-Odom with Amare-Marion-Hill. Just impossible. With Shaq, they now matchup again, and also with teams like San Antonio. Risky move, but the lakers had already closed the gap with them prior to signing Gasol...they had to do something.

 

[D-Dogg]

The spacing is still bad, and because our practices are fast break vs. fast break, the only way guys are going to learn the new spacing is by doing it in games.

Is that true? Really? Even now, with Shaq? That's a real head-scratcher, if so...you have to drill your half-court sets hard if you are trying to integrate an interior force like Shaq.

Practice must have been adjusted; if not Mike D is loopy.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Is that true? Really? Even now, with Shaq? That's a real head-scratcher, if so...you have to drill your half-court sets hard if you are trying to integrate an interior force like Shaq.

Practice must have been adjusted; if not Mike D is loopy.

3 games is certainly not a sufficient period to make hard assessments, however, from where I sit, I am very skeptical of Shaq's ability to take the Suns to a different/higher level...
And it's not just Shaq's own flaws - though he has many, like no offensive game whatsoever and he's slow which seriously throws a wrench into this team that only knows one gear - run & gun...
More troubling is the fact that Amare is strictly an offensive threat (albeit a great one), he simply can not defend at a high level on a consistent basis... Same for Nash. Same for Diaw...
I really don't see any signs with this team that can somehow get them over the top and into the Championship round. I can more easily see them losing to the Lakers, the Mavs and/or the Spurs this season than I could last year...

It's sad to watch actually... Individually (with the exception of Shaq), many on this team are good enough to take other teams much farther than they can collectively take this Suns team...

Hey, they had to do the deal with Shaq - I guess... But contrary to some who believe Shaq's mere presence will somehow enable Amare to suddenly become a true defender, or Diaw, or even Nash for that matter, I just don't see it happening...

Can D'Antoni suddenly learn to teach a slower, more methodical half-court oriented style? Doubt it... More concerning - can guys like Nash, Bell, Diaw and Amare actually learn to be effective in the half-court, both on offense and on defense?? Doubt it...

I think Suns fans have a ton to be concerned about... This coming post season is shaping up to be a huge disappointment...

 

[se7en]

3 games is certainly not a sufficient period to make hard assessments, however, from where I sit, I am very skeptical of Shaq's ability to take the Suns to a different/higher level...
And it's not just Shaq's own flaws - though he has many, like no offensive game whatsoever and he's slow which seriously throws a wrench into this team that only knows one gear - run & gun...
More troubling is the fact that Amare is strictly an offensive threat (albeit a great one), he simply can not defend at a high level on a consistent basis... Same for Nash. Same for Diaw...
I really don't see any signs with this team that can somehow get them over the top and into the Championship round. I can more easily see them losing to the Lakers, the Mavs and/or the Spurs this season than I could last year...

It's sad to watch actually... Individually (with the exception of Shaq), many on this team are good enough to take other teams much farther than they can collectively take this Suns team...

Hey, they had to do the deal with Shaq - I guess... But contrary to some who believe Shaq's mere presence will somehow enable Amare to suddenly become a true defender, or Diaw, or even Nash for that matter, I just don't see it happening...

Can D'Antoni suddenly learn to teach a slower, more methodical half-court oriented style? Doubt it... More concerning - can guys like Nash, Bell, Diaw and Amare actually learn to be effective in the half-court, both on offense and on defense?? Doubt it...

I think Suns fans have a ton to be concerned about... This coming post season is shaping up to be a huge disappointment...

An over-reaction. I actually don't think Shaq looks that slow even with his rust. Defense will only get better as the team learns their switching assignments with the big fella. They just need time to gell - this team has never in its history played with a real center like Shaq and certainly not this group. Of course they need time to adjust.

 

[82CardsGrad]

An over-reaction. I actually don't think Shaq looks that slow even with his rust. Defense will only get better as the team learns their switching assignments with the big fella. They just need time to gell - this team has never in its history played with a real center like Shaq and certainly not this group. Of course they need time to adjust.

Time will tell if my post is an "over-reaction"... I hope it is...

 

[sublimineezy]

the suns need to stop giving up their draft picks, its only going to make them older and older, it was fun watching them a couple of years ago and now they are old and about to retire. ala shaq

 

[82CardsGrad]

3 games is certainly not a sufficient period to make hard assessments, however, from where I sit, I am very skeptical of Shaq's ability to take the Suns to a different/higher level...
And it's not just Shaq's own flaws - though he has many, like no offensive game whatsoever and he's slow which seriously throws a wrench into this team that only knows one gear - run & gun...
More troubling is the fact that Amare is strictly an offensive threat (albeit a great one), he simply can not defend at a high level on a consistent basis... Same for Nash. Same for Diaw...
I really don't see any signs with this team that can somehow get them over the top and into the Championship round. I can more easily see them losing to the Lakers, the Mavs and/or the Spurs this season than I could last year...

It's sad to watch actually... Individually (with the exception of Shaq), many on this team are good enough to take other teams much farther than they can collectively take this Suns team...

Hey, they had to do the deal with Shaq - I guess... But contrary to some who believe Shaq's mere presence will somehow enable Amare to suddenly become a true defender, or Diaw, or even Nash for that matter, I just don't see it happening...

Can D'Antoni suddenly learn to teach a slower, more methodical half-court oriented style? Doubt it... More concerning - can guys like Nash, Bell, Diaw and Amare actually learn to be effective in the half-court, both on offense and on defense?? Doubt it...

I think Suns fans have a ton to be concerned about... This coming post season is shaping up to be a huge disappointment...

Still not enough games into the Shaq era to realistically make some concrete assessments, however, was my post above really that much of an "overreaction" as some of you claimed it to be??

IMO, Shaq will prove to be the worst move this team could've made... The players, along with the head coach, simply do not know how to play a style that fits Shaq, and as such, a huge 7 foot 300 pound wrench has been tossed into the Suns' gears... This hurts...

 

[BeeBeard]

Still not enough games into the Shaq era to realistically make some concrete assessments, however, was my post above really that much of an "overreaction" as some of you claimed it to be??

IMO, Shaq will prove to be the worst move this team could've made... The players, along with the head coach, simply do not know how to play a style that fits Shaq, and as such, a huge 7 foot 300 pound wrench has been tossed into the Suns' gears... This hurts...

Yes, it is an overreaction and a gross overstatement. Every time the Suns lose, it's not exactly Shaq's fault or can be somehow traced back to the trade. I'm getting tired of seeing the Suns play like garbage in general and then the blame getting foisted onto the Shaqtus as though he has something to do with it. Come on guys, we're smarter than Heat fans.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Yes, it is an overreaction and a gross overstatement. Every time the Suns lose, it's not exactly Shaq's fault or can be somehow traced back to the trade. I'm getting tired of seeing the Suns play like garbage in general and then the blame getting foisted onto the Shaqtus as though he has something to do with it. Come on guys, we're smarter than Heat fans.

Whoa dude... Don't take my comments out of complete context... As I mentioned earlier in this thread, the Suns "had" to do something. They "had" to make a move. Before Shaq's arrival, this team was headed for another 60 win season, and a grueling, gut-wrenching loss in the playoffs...
With Shaq, they are now heading toward a mid-50 win season and an even earlier exit from the playoffs...
I am not at all putting the entire blame on Shaq... He is what he is... And what he is was simply NOT what was right for this team...