The Suns are at a crossroad of a culture change

[elindholm]

Hunter was never an assistant coach. He was the player development guy. Hunter had never coached basketball on any level prior to getting the Suns' head coaching gig.

Even better then.

I also like how Beasley and Brown, who could at least score on a good day, have now been banished from the rotation, because we sure wouldn't want them to interfere with the Suns' stellar defense that gives up 125 points per game.

 

[HooverDam]

I also like how Beasley and Brown, who could at least score on a good day, have now been banished from the rotation, because we sure wouldn't want them to interfere with the Suns' stellar defense that gives up 125 points per game.

Im fine with that. Who cares if the Suns lose all their games, and who cares by how much. If nailing Beasley and Brown to the bench allows the Suns more time to evaluate their young "talent", then fine.

Im all for seeing a ton of minutes from Marshall, the Morris twins, Dragic, etc for the rest of the year. I was also fine w/ this earlier in the season.

I should also say, I doubt any of the Suns young players ever develop into much of anything. But the Front Office needs to be convinced of that, so they need to see them play and struggle. At the very best, the Morris Twins and Kendall Marshall are bench guys.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Im fine with that. Who cares if the Suns lose all their games, and who cares by how much. If nailing Beasley and Brown to the bench allows the Suns more time to evaluate their young "talent", then fine.

Im all for seeing a ton of minutes from Marshall, the Morris twins, Dragic, etc for the rest of the year. I was also fine w/ this earlier in the season.

I should also say, I doubt any of the Suns young players ever develop into much of anything. But the Front Office needs to be convinced of that, so they need to see them play and struggle. At the very best, the Morris Twins and Kendall Marshall are bench guys.

Agreed.

Steve

 

[elindholm]

Im fine with that. Who cares if the Suns lose all their games, and who cares by how much. If nailing Beasley and Brown to the bench allows the Suns more time to evaluate their young "talent", then fine.

But Beasley is the Suns' young talent. Sure, it's unlikely he'll ever get the mental part of the game figured out, but he's still one of the better prospects on the roster, as bleak as that sounds.

Im all for seeing a ton of minutes from Marshall, the Morris twins, Dragic, etc for the rest of the year.

Dragic is almost 27 and Beasley is 24. To privilege Dragic in the rotation while benching Beasley in the name of "evaluating young talent" makes no sense at all.

 

[BC867]

But Beasley is the Suns' young talent. Sure, it's unlikely he'll ever get the mental part of the game figured out, but he's still one of the better prospects on the roster, as bleak as that sounds.

Dragic is almost 27 and Beasley is 24. To privilege Dragic in the rotation while benching Beasley in the name of "evaluating young talent" makes no sense at all.

The Suns can build around Dragic as a double-double Point Guard (which he has been accomplishing since the All Star break more than anyone else in the league, despite being on a last place team).

But they have certainly found that they cannot build around the head case Beasley. That's the difference! Relative youth and potential, not just relative youth.

The Suns are in a conundrum. For all the posters who wanted them to tank from the beginning of the season, now there is frustration that they are.

It really isn't easy watching players whom you want to be your future foundation being enveloped in a losing mindset. Like it or not, it becomes part of their history. It would take Dr. Spock to not make it part of their emotions.

 

[Phrazbit]

Measley has still been getting plenty of playing time.

Its hard to make sense of Hunter's rotations, Dragic is the only player who a pretty consistent level of playing time, everyone else might see 30 minutes one night, 15 or less the next. Brown is the only player who has seen his PT vanish. I wouldnt say he is prioritizing youth, we've seen plenty of Scola and O'Neal. Supposedly he is rewarding effort and defense but its hard to put logic in his rotations with that spin.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Measley has still been getting plenty of playing time.

Its hard to make sense of Hunter's rotations, Dragic is the only player who a pretty consistent level of playing time, everyone else might see 30 minutes one night, 15 or less the next. Brown is the only player who has seen his PT vanish. I wouldnt say he is prioritizing youth, we've seen plenty of Scola and O'Neal. Supposedly he is rewarding effort and defense but its hard to put logic in his rotations with that spin.

Anyone who cannot see the tank job going on here is blind. Rotations that favor younger players. Losing to the lower teams. Trying to beat the better teams to keep everyone somewhat interested (and actually beating LA, SA, Memphis, etc).

Actually, its a masterful job of tanking.

 

[95pro]

they have no plans on bringing Brown back, so they took his minutes away. i'm okay with that.

 

[Phrazbit]

Anyone who cannot see the tank job going on here is blind. Rotations that favor younger players. Losing to the lower teams. Trying to beat the better teams to keep everyone somewhat interested (and actually beating LA, SA, Memphis, etc).

Actually, its a masterful job of tanking.

We're not tanking. We're just awful. A tanking team wouldnt play Dragic, Tucker and Scola for a combined 90 minutes per game. Marshall would be playing 25 minutes a night if we were tanking. Our team sucks, our coach sucks even worse.

LA is capable of losing to anyone and the San Antonio win came a few days after they demolished us while sleep walking, they put out even less effort in the 2nd game (and still almost won if not for a missed FT).

The team is every bit as bad as its record.

 

[JCSunsfan]

We're not tanking. We're just awful. A tanking team wouldnt play Dragic, Tucker and Scola for a combined 90 minutes per game. Marshall would be playing 25 minutes a night if we were tanking. Our team sucks, our coach sucks even worse.

LA is capable of losing to anyone and the San Antonio win came a few days after they demolished us while sleep walking, they put out even less effort in the 2nd game (and still almost won if not for a missed FT).

The team is every bit as bad as its record.

I know you think this. I disagree. They are tanking. I am not sure how much better they would be if they were actually trying. Not alot, most likely, but some.

 

[Phrazbit]

So you think that the players are deliberately losing games?

I see tanking when a team is doing bizzare junk like sitting healthy veterans for no reason like Golden State did last year, or shipping off half their roster for beans at mid season. The Suns are not doing that, they're still playing veterans for heavy minutes, they didnt do a fire sale (they even kept Jermaine O'Neal who will be a free agent). A tanking team, a team deliberately losing for draft purposes would have made losing to Minnesota and Houston a high priority, our draft looks a lot better if those teams are winning, instead the Suns won those games.

What we instead have is a terrible team, with one healthy player who is of starting caliber and a clueless coach who has never even been an assistant in the league.

 

[Chaplin]

So you think that the players are deliberately losing games?

I see tanking when a team is doing bizzare junk like sitting healthy veterans for no reason like Golden State did last year, or shipping off half their roster for beans at mid season. The Suns are not doing that, they're still playing veterans for heavy minutes, they didnt do a fire sale (they even kept Jermaine O'Neal who will be a free agent). A tanking team, a team deliberately losing for draft purposes would have made losing to Minnesota and Houston a high priority, our draft looks a lot better if those teams are winning, instead the Suns won those games.

What we instead have is a terrible team, with one healthy player who is of starting caliber and a clueless coach who has never even been an assistant in the league.

We don't agree on much, but I agree with you on this. We aren't tanking. That's ridiculous. Tanking is deliberately losing games or coaching to deliberately lose. Trying out young players to see what works isn't tanking. Successfully trying them out would lead to wins--the fact that we're losing shows that our "young players" aren't good enough to affect the outcome of games. But guaranteed they are trying to win.

 

[AzStevenCal]

We don't agree on much, but I agree with you on this. We aren't tanking. That's ridiculous. Tanking is deliberately losing games or coaching to deliberately lose. Trying out young players to see what works isn't tanking. Successfully trying them out would lead to wins--the fact that we're losing shows that our "young players" aren't good enough to affect the outcome of games. But guaranteed they are trying to win.

I no longer know what tanking is, every time I turn around I see it defined differently. Call it what you will, IMO, we are not pulling out all stops to win each and every game. IMO, management went with Hunter because in addition to him being an inexperienced coach, he also accepts the mandate to experiment and attempt to develop the younger players. Additionally, as has been noted by most of us, we are playing the young guys heavier minutes than their performance would indicate. We aren't good but, record-wise, we are this bad by choice.

Steve

 

[Phrazbit]

Again, are we playing the young guys despite them not deserving it? What young player is being pushed despite their bad play? Dragic has been playing nearly 40 minutes recently, Marshall hardly plays. Brown got benched, but Brown is awful. The vets are still getting plenty of playing time, when they dont get PT its been either when they're having an awful game or the game is already out of hand. Seriously, who is getting an undeserved bump in minutes right now? Dragic is our only starting worthy player and he is logging a huge chuck of minutes, despite out newly minted lotto pick being on the bench behind him.

I dont see where Hunter is deliberately holding the team back. He appears to be letting guys play if they're preforming, if not they get benched, the problem is the players are, for the most part, horrible. So on a given night we are lucky to have even 3 guys play well.

 

[Phrazbit]

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=400278766

Last nights box score... its hard to for me to look at that and think the minute allocation is a sign of tanking, if anything it looks like the opposite. Only starter that didnt log over 35 minutes was Scola, and Scola was playing like dog crap.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I no longer know what tanking is, every time I turn around I see it defined differently. Call it what you will, IMO, we are not pulling out all stops to win each and every game. IMO, management went with Hunter because in addition to him being an inexperienced coach, he also accepts the mandate to experiment and attempt to develop the younger players. Additionally, as has been noted by most of us, we are playing the young guys heavier minutes than their performance would indicate. We aren't good but, record-wise, we are this bad by choice.

Steve

This

 

[Phrazbit]

This

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=400278766

Again... if we're deliberately tanking and THAT is the minute usage in a supposed "tanking" effort then they dont even know how to tank right.

 

[AzStevenCal]

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=400278766

Again... if we're deliberately tanking and THAT is the minute usage in a supposed "tanking" effort then they dont even know how to tank right.

They are losing and you want them to lose, so what's the big deal? I know that you looked at more than one box score and so you obviously know that last night's game is not really indicative of the box scores of the past two months so I have to wonder what you're trying to accomplish here.

They aren't throwing games and no one here is suggesting it. But, for many of us, it appears that winning is not the priority it normally would be. They are mixing and matching when it comes to lineups and the team knows it's not destined for much success so it's understandable that the effort is also inconsistent. Also, it is only asking for trouble to play every game as uncompetitively as possible so it's no surprise that our better players get extra minutes every now and then.

Steve

 

[Phrazbit]

I'm fine with them losing, but I strongly disagree that they are trying to lose. Hunter is mixing and matching in an effort to win, he is not very good at it... and neither are the players.

The playing time has been inconsistent but if you look back over previous box scores it appears to me (and indicative by Hunter's statements) that he is trying to ride guys playing well NOT simply pushing the young guys. As I've said, its especially hard to come to the conclusion they're "tanking" when you look at the PT Dragic and Marshall are consistently receiving.

The only games I've seen young guys getting tons of extra PT regardless of performance were ones where the team was already getting destroyed... which has been happening frequently, but because its an awful team.

 

[BC867]

I believe that the answers are in the results, as typified in our 2-point loss to the Nets. We lost, which is the goal for higher draft picks. But we played an exciting close game, to keep our young players from accepting a losing mentality.

Hunter no doubt gets his direction of goals from the Front Office. He is certainly not calling all the shots by himself.

He is not only giving minutes to the individual players who earn it, he is giving minutes to players upon whom he is going to count next season. After all, they are not going to bring in 15 fresh new faces from winning teams.

In other words, of course they are tanking. But doing it to find the players and combinations they can build upon to win next year.

It seems they chose the right "Head Coach" from behind the bench. When the Suns look good in spurts, he looks good. When they don't, he inherited a dysfunctional team (especially after recent injuries) and, hey, he had no experience.

 

[SirStefan32]

If I were the GM or a coach and my boss told me to "tank", I would be playing Brown and Beasley for 40 minutes every night, and Dragic would develop mysterious back spasms and/or groin strains once in a while.

 

[Phrazbit]

In the results?!

One, we're a bad team, seriously, take a look at the "talent" we're rolling out there right now. This is easily the worst roster in the West, and IMO its not even close. They are going to lose most nights no matter how hard they try... or dont try.

Secondly... to say that loss to Brooklyn typified a tanking effort goes beyond any suspension of disbelief. In a goal to be as close as possible but still lose Hunter orchestrated that 2 defeat that nearly had a tip in to tie in the final seconds? I'm sorry BC but that is too absurd. Pro-Wrestling cant orchestrate a match that close and its ACTUALLY rigged.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I could care less why they're losing, as long as they're losing.

 

[BC867]

If I were the GM or a coach and my boss told me to "tank", I would be playing Brown and Beasley for 40 minutes every night, and Dragic would develop mysterious back spasms and/or groin strains once in a while.

What if your boss said, "Concentrate on keeping your guys positive and see which of our young guys have potential while we hope to get better draft picks. We are not going to evaluate your won-loss record this season."?

Most reasonable outcomes are not based on extremes, one way or the other.

 

[Phrazbit]

What if your boss said, "Concentrate on keeping your guys positive and see which of our young guys have potential while we hope to get better draft picks. We are not going to evaluate your won-loss record this season."?

Most reasonable outcomes are not based on extremes, one way or the other.

I dont think its extreme to say we are losing primarily because its a lousy team. Its the simplest conclusion and one thats been apparent since the season began.

If they start resting Dragic for some vague injuries or just DNP for no reason at all (which may happen towards the final week), then I will be sold that the tank is on, but currently the evidence does not back the idea that they're tanking.