The Suns are at a crossroad of a culture change

[SirStefan32]

I dont think its extreme to say we are losing primarily because its a lousy team. Its the simplest conclusion and one thats been apparent since the season began.

If they start resting Dragic for some vague injuries or just DNP for no reason at all (which may happen towards the final week), then I will be sold that the tank is on, but currently the evidence does not back the idea that they're tanking.

Exactly. I think people just don't want to accept the fact that the Suns are just a really really bad team.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I dont think its extreme to say we are losing primarily because its a lousy team. Its the simplest conclusion and one thats been apparent since the season began.

If they start resting Dragic for some vague injuries or just DNP for no reason at all (which may happen towards the final week), then I will be sold that the tank is on, but currently the evidence does not back the idea that they're tanking.

Of course it's not extreme to say we are losing "primarily" because it's a lousy team. BUT, to my knowledge, this is the first time I've seen you make this point. And, again, to my knowledge, not one single person has said anything to the contrary. We are losing a lot of games because first and foremost, we are a bad team. The point we keep trying to make is that bad as we are, we are no longer prioritizing wins and so our results are even worse than our talent level would indicate.

Steve

 

[AzStevenCal]

Exactly. I think people just don't want to accept the fact that the Suns are just a really really bad team.

I think we are playing like a really, really bad team. Earlier in the season, with a healthy Gortat and with a goal of winning games, we were just a bad team.

Steve

 

[Phrazbit]

I think we are playing like a really, really bad team. Earlier in the season, with a healthy Gortat and with a goal of winning games, we were just a bad team.

Steve

Were they? Our winning percentage is the same now as it was when Gentry was fired. We've been in the cellar since December with occasional brief moments of rising a few percentage points above it.

When I look at what Hunter is doing out there he seems to be trying to win games. He is trying to ride hot hands regardless of age of the player. The question was if they are tanking, and looking at Hunter's rotations I think its really really hard to draw that conclusion. Gortat got hurt, but that has nothing to do with the front office supposedly deciding to bottom out.

Vets are still playing heavy minutes, them NOT trading or buying out Jermaine O'Neal, getting wins vs teams detrimental to our lotto priorities.

I dont see how one can look at what they've done and think they're tanking... unless you think the players themselves are trying to lose, and thats hard to believe. There have been games where the players appear to give up once they've fallen behind by big margins, but thats not tanking.

This team looked like the worst roster in the conference before the season, and they've lived up to that billing.

 

[Mainstreet]

Were they? Our winning percentage is the same now as it was when Gentry was fired. We've been in the cellar since December with occasional brief moments of rising a few percentage points above it.

When I look at what Hunter is doing out there he seems to be trying to win games. He is trying to ride hot hands regardless of age of the player. The question was if they are tanking, and looking at Hunter's rotations I think its really really hard to oweverdraw that conclusion. Gortat got hurt, but that has nothing to do with the front office supposedly deciding to bottom out.

Vets are still playing heavy minutes, them NOT trading or buying out Jermaine O'Neal, getting wins vs teams detrimental to our lotto priorities.

I dont see how one can look at what they've done and think they're tanking... unless you think the players themselves are trying to lose, and thats hard to believe. There have been games where the players appear to give up once they've fallen behind by big margins, but thats not tanking.

This team looked like the worst roster in the conference before the season, and they've lived up to that billing.

Unless one considers playing the Morris twins and Marshall as tanking.

However, I think you summed up what tanking would be earlier.

If they start resting Dragic for some vague injuries or just DNP for no reason at all (which may happen towards the final week), then I will be sold that the tank is on, but currently the evidence does not back the idea that they're tanking.

The Suns have rode Dragic hard down the stretch so I believe the Suns have tried to win. I do hope they rest Dragic at some point. Why risk injury for the Suns best player? He plays with abandon when he is on the court.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Were they? Our winning percentage is the same now as it was when Gentry was fired. We've been in the cellar since December with occasional brief moments of rising a few percentage points above it.

When I look at what Hunter is doing out there he seems to be trying to win games. He is trying to ride hot hands regardless of age of the player. The question was if they are tanking, and looking at Hunter's rotations I think its really really hard to draw that conclusion. Gortat got hurt, but that has nothing to do with the front office supposedly deciding to bottom out.

Vets are still playing heavy minutes, them NOT trading or buying out Jermaine O'Neal, getting wins vs teams detrimental to our lotto priorities.

I dont see how one can look at what they've done and think they're tanking... unless you think the players themselves are trying to lose, and thats hard to believe. There have been games where the players appear to give up once they've fallen behind by big margins, but thats not tanking.

This team looked like the worst roster in the conference before the season, and they've lived up to that billing.

You were paying close attention at the start of the season, you could argue the other side of this very well and we both know it. We started off with probably the easiest schedule in the league and wasted a lot of opportunities because we played Beasley key minutes. 5 or 6 weeks into the season we should have been been around .500 or better. We weren't tanking then, we were trying to win games with a very flawed dynamic. If you define tanking as intentionally losing the games (management, coaching and players) then we are not tanking and IMO no team ever has. But, we are doing what many other bad teams have done in the past that gets labeled as tanking.

Hunter isn't trying to lose games, it's just that winning games is not his first priority. He is going to still try and win games while mixing and matching his lineups with a focus on determining who has value for the future and who doesn't. We are a bad enough team without Gortat that he really doesn't need to do any more than this in order to see us lose most games.

Steve

 

[Phrazbit]

That we came out of that really easy chunk of schedule at the start of the year and still sported a bad record I think backs the idea that the team is simply... really really bad.

As far as what we're doing compared to what other teams labeled as "tanking" have done... I know I've said it before, but I dont see it at all. Tanking teams dump vets, they clean house play young guys huge minutes and come up with vague injuries for the vets. Yeah, Gortat and O'Neal are hurt but those injuries looked pretty bad when they happened. Other than those guys being out of the mix Hunter is still leaning heavily on some of his oldest players. He is handing out playing time primarily based on who he perceives as giving effort from night to night, he looks to me to be trying to win, without a doubt.

And I do think organizations and coaches (but not players) have deliberately set their team up to lose before. Golden State last year was pretty shameless in their tanking. They had to get down to 7th in the lotto standings to keep their pick and they went bombs away to pull it off, the players they used in their final few games were a joke.

We're losing and losing ugly, its true, but looking at the roster its hard to picture them winning vs just about anyone. They suck, but sucking isnt tanking. Tanking organizations put their team in a position to bottom out deliberately, by dumping the talent and imagining injuries, we have put our team in a position to be horrible accidentally, but having legit injuries and a horrible roster.

 

[Chaplin]

I think we are playing like a really, really bad team. Earlier in the season, with a healthy Gortat and with a goal of winning games, we were just a bad team.

Steve

Regardless of what the coach says or does, you actually think the players don't care about winning? We have plenty of players on this team that barely lost a handful of games in their entire college careers here.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Regardless of what the coach says or does, you actually think the players don't care about winning? We have plenty of players on this team that barely lost a handful of games in their entire college careers here.

No, I think they care about winning. But, believing you can win is very important in this sport. Also, it's almost impossible to give it everything you've got when your team is outmanned every night. They may go out there with high intensity but they're much more likely to lose that intensity when things don't go their way. That annoying speech in The Natural sums up what I'm talking about.

Steve

 

[Phrazbit]

I agree that there is some defeatism going on, but that aint tanking in my opinion.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I agree that there is some defeatism going on, but that aint tanking in my opinion.

No, it's not. Really, there isn't all that much to argue about here. We all agree we're a bad team and everything else is just speculation on our parts.

Steve

 

[Errntknght]

Frankly, losing Gortat was not much of a blow to the team... last year he was a bit above average but this year he's been well below avg.

 

[leclerc]

I can't see who on this team that would help us win games outside of those playing. Our best lineup seems to be Dragic, Wesley, Tucker, Keef and Scola. The light is still off for Beasley.

I hope we can move Gortat and Dudley + whoever (outside of Dragic and Wes) for something that looks like above average starting material. We need to get some pieces in here. Hopefully we can get something for those guys in addition to our 1st round pick, so we have Dragic + 2 next year.