Duckjake said:Yet two years ago not beating Oklahoma had everything to do with the Pro Game when people were knocking Chris Simms.
Chris Simms was a 3rd round pick, not touted to be a Top 3 pick.
Major Applewhite was a better QB than Simms.
The War Room Draft Dish: Vince Young's workout only OK
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Chris Simms was a 3rd round pick, not touted to be a Top 3 pick.
Major Applewhite was a better QB than Simms.
wallyburger said:Chris Simms was a 3rd round pick, not touted to be a Top 3 pick.
Major Applewhite was a better QB than Simms.
And that Simms supposedly didn't step up in the big games was the main reason he dropped to the third round.
Applewhite a better QB? What NFL team does he play for these days? Always like to watch former Longhorns in the NFL.
Stout
Hold onto the ball, Murray!
wallyburger said:
True, which is why it should matter to a degree. Instead of merely taking it into consideration, though, most pundits completely change their mind based upon a tenth of a second. Idiots.
WildBB
Yogi n da Bear
en fuego said:
Yea - physically he has all the tools. He also has the tools on this team to succeed at this level. Fairly quickly. We shall see. Let him fall. We'll gobble him up. He will show he can play at the pro level. He'll have all this yr. hopefully to wait in the wings. He just makes plays. And Denny loves playmakers.
On another note , I don't see Huff lating to our pick now. He goes no later than Det.
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Redrage
Hall of Famer
If memory serves me right, McNabbs 40 was about the same.
Anquan had a slow time as did Jerry Rice and Emitt Smith.
I often wonder how much faster a competitor like Young round run if the scouts were able to have him run against another player.
Anquan had a slow time as did Jerry Rice and Emitt Smith.
I often wonder how much faster a competitor like Young round run if the scouts were able to have him run against another player.
Redrage said:
Judging by his test results it would probably take them a while to explain to him what direction to run in.
Stout
Hold onto the ball, Murray!
Card Trader said:
Dude, give the trolling a rest. You blatantly hate the guy, that much is clear. Little niggling posts like this contribute nothing but childishness.
What I meant, but did not clarify was, a better College QB. As a Longhorn fan, you probably know how much controversy there was when Brown sat Major in favor of Chris. Even a rumor that Phil Simms had much to do with that decision.
wallyburger said:
I saw them both play many times. Simms was a better college QB. I never did like Applewhite at QB he threw the ball high with an upward angle and just collapsed when faced with tough blitzing teams. He won a lot of games and set some records but so did Peter Gardere and Robert Brewer and Bret Stafford.
Simms moved ahead of Applewhite when the latter injured his knee not because of anything Phil Simms did. It was the typical 2nd string QB controversy. He's always the most popular guy in town.
Stout said:
Tell ya what Stout, I'll post what I want, when I want, if you have a problem with that then put me on ignore, your responses to my posts won't be missed.
Stout
Hold onto the ball, Murray!
Card Trader said:
Look, I normally have absolutely no problem with your posts. They're usually well thought out and informative...I believe I even met you on my last trip (if you're the dude I'm thinking of, you were cool). It's just comments like you made above...I mean, they're pointless, childish, and immature. I do it too, and I get called on it. It contributes nothing, and if you want to give me a 'nyah nyah' attitude about it, that's fine by me. I won't put you on ignore because you're usually a decent guy on here. You're just being a jerk now, that's all.
Jerk or not, Vince Young is not a smart man, and I really do think that along with the many other flaws in his game make him far too big of a project. I can't understand why people are so high on a prospect that hasn't shown he can play the QB position.
Stout
Hold onto the ball, Murray!
Card Trader said:
Vince Young didn't do well on the Wonderlic (sp?). Have you met him? Spoken to his high school teachers? Or just gobbled up the media frenzy against him?
Note that I'm not defending his football smarts here...I haven't a clue as to how football smart he is to play at the QB position. I just think walking around calling players dumb when we really don't know that is wrong. Dan Marino sucked at the Wonderlic. Is he dumb?
Stout said:
Dan Marino may not have done well, but he about tripled Young's score. I've heard Young during interviews and have listened to what scouts have said about his interview process.
Redsz
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Card Trader said:
Actually, Young scored higher than Marino on the Wonderlic. And there has been no correlation between on field success in the NFL and any Wonderlic score.
Nice to see that the Wonderlic is now the standard for intelligence testing according to some. People shouldn't even bother with qualifications from universities or try to make any form of honour roll. Just take a wonderlic test and put it on their CV.
Tell me, what makes you think you are any smarter than Vince Young? Have you made any form of honour roll like Young has? Do you even know what Young has achieved academically?
The fact that you troll around ASFN slamming Young's 'intelligence' based on a Wonderlic score is freakin' weak because you have no idea how 'smart' Young is and you look like a complete tool for doing so.
Nice to see that the Wonderlic is now the standard for intelligence testing according to some. People shouldn't even bother with qualifications from universities or try to make any form of honour roll. Just take a wonderlic test and put it on their CV.
Tell me, what makes you think you are any smarter than Vince Young? Have you made any form of honour roll like Young has? Do you even know what Young has achieved academically?
The fact that you troll around ASFN slamming Young's 'intelligence' based on a Wonderlic score is freakin' weak because you have no idea how 'smart' Young is and you look like a complete tool for doing so.
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Why Vince Young Desreves and " F "
By Bomani Jones
Special to Page 2 ESPN
Vincent Young might be as dumb as a sack of hammers. That's what most people took from the rumor of his subliterate score on the Wonderlic test at the NFL combine.
You know what? Those people are probably right -- though not for that reason.
A low score on that test would mean a lot more if quarterbacks were asked to calculate the dimensions of a vat of water while in the pocket. Perhaps the NFL could personalize its Wonderlic questions to ask things like, "If your team wears white and the opponent wears red, who are the guys in stripes?"
But it doesn't.
That the Wonderlic means diddly-poo about football is probably why an old buddy of mine from graduate school, McDonald Mirabile, found that Wonderlic scores have no statistical link to a quarterback's earnings.
No, the real problem is that Young had no one on his payroll show him the test before the combine.
On a test on which a score of 10 is deemed "literate," Young was rumored to have scored a 6. So for a couple of days, Young was subjected to the embarrassment of people questioning whether he was literally ********. The reports of a 6 were refuted, but he probably didn't do much better. If he did, the denials of the 6 would have come attached with an actual score. Young did score a 16 on the second try, but that's still below what most execs look for from a quarterback.
This is all Young's agent's fault.
Any agent worth his percentage has drilled his client repeatedly on strategies for getting a high score on the test -- especially an agent representing a player whose stock could do nothing but fall. Standardized tests are all about knowing the test. That Young and his agent knew the test was coming and did nothing to prepare for it is inexcusable.
Young, however, does not have a traditional agent. He's represented by Major Adams, a criminal attorney in Houston and a friend of the Young family. When asked by Chip Brown of the Dallas Morning News why he chose Adams as his agent -- and his uncle, a middle school teacher and coach, as his business manager -- Young said, "They know what I want, the things that I believe in. They know where I'm trying to go, the things I want to do for the community."
Too bad there's no reason to believe they know how to get those things. His advisors, who must have been recommended by MC Hammer Consulting, didn't tell him that wearing a sweatshirt to the White House isn't the way to get where he wants to go.
The Wonderlic score, combined with things like that, is a recipe to fall to the middle of the first round.
In the grand scheme of things, no one cares whether a football player is smart. There's something wildly ironic about people questioning whether someone is smart enough to do a job in which a man with children who continues playing football after having a stroke is lavished with praise, and which celebrates those who risk permanent injury while playing with broken bones.
That's not what smart people do, no matter how smart the Wonderlic says some of these guys are.
In adulthood, results are all that matter. And results are primarily the result of hard work and good judgment. The work ethic that keeps a quarterback in the film room late at night is what prepares him to identify coverages. No matter how smart someone is, it's repetition that prepares him. Smarts will get you nowhere else without elbow grease.
No one with a passing familiarity with Texas football questions Young's work ethic. Especially not Colt McCoy or Jevan Snead, the competitors for Young's old job who find themselves throwing to their receivers every night because that's what Young did last summer.
Judgment is the wild card with Vince. It's simply defined -- the basic ability to tell a good idea from a bad one -- but nearly impossible to measure. Until Big Brother invents a machine that knows exactly what factors people weigh when they make decisions (assuming he hasn't, of course), the only way to gauge someone's judgment is from the things we see them do.
And it seems Young's judgment needs improvement.
If nothing else, his disastrous trip to the combine showed he's made a bad decision in choosing his representation. Adams represents gospel star Yolanda Adams, and he negotiated Michael Lewis' contract when he was drafted by the Eagles in 2002. But Adams is in way over his head with Young.
Young is the most interesting prospect ever to hit the draft, even more so than Michael Vick in 2001. He's a quarterback with prototypical size, running back speed and an arm that's strong or accurate, but rarely both simultaneously. But even with that fundamental weakness, he is the Moses of Texas football. He was so good that casual observers didn't notice how loaded the Longhorns' roster was, that Young was the centerpiece of what many considered the most loaded recruiting class ever. He drips with the intangibles and leadership that great quarterbacks must have, and he does it all with a Montana-esque cool under fire.
Even though he has more of a 12-gauge than a rifle, that should spell a boatload of money for Vince, right? Sorta, according to Adams.
In that same interview with the Dallas Morning News, Adams was asked whether he was qualified to negotiate Young's contract. "I don't think it will be that much different because in the NFL, the contracts are pretty much slotted," Adams said. "Being a contract adviser, you get the contracts of the top picks and the top quarterbacks. They give you that information. It won't be that difficult."
Vince Young
David J. Phillip/AP Photo
No one doubts Young's athletic ability. But his judgment's in question. (David J. Phillip/AP Photo)
Huh?
Who are "they"?
If it's as easy as that, we should all go to agent school.
If salaries were really slotted like that, players wouldn't get to training camp late. If it were that easy, teams at the top of the draft wouldn't feel the need to negotiate with players before the draft. And surely contracts wouldn't be full of wrinkles, clauses, incentives, voidable years, roster bonuses and a bunch of other things that sound complicated to folks who work by the hour. If negotiating any NFL contract were that easy, agents would be the Maytag repairmen of the legal profession.
Young's choice of Adams was the stupid thing that should scare teams away -- not some test. It was a bad agent that started the Terrell Owens debacle in Philadelphia. Indirectly, it was a bad agent that got Ricky Williams into his mess in Miami. (Had Ricky signed a decent deal in New Orleans, he wouldn't have money problems.) In a delayed way, drafting Young may mean getting Drew Rosenhaus or a Bob Sugar type involved in a few years.
Yikes!
Young's Wonderlic scores should give teams pause about selecting him in the draft. But it doesn't matter a lick whether he's stupid. All that matters is whether he possesses the judgment to avoid doing stupid things. Right now, his judgment isn't looking so good.
And that will -- and should -- cost him more than flunking a stupid test.
By Bomani Jones
Special to Page 2 ESPN
Vincent Young might be as dumb as a sack of hammers. That's what most people took from the rumor of his subliterate score on the Wonderlic test at the NFL combine.
You know what? Those people are probably right -- though not for that reason.
A low score on that test would mean a lot more if quarterbacks were asked to calculate the dimensions of a vat of water while in the pocket. Perhaps the NFL could personalize its Wonderlic questions to ask things like, "If your team wears white and the opponent wears red, who are the guys in stripes?"
But it doesn't.
That the Wonderlic means diddly-poo about football is probably why an old buddy of mine from graduate school, McDonald Mirabile, found that Wonderlic scores have no statistical link to a quarterback's earnings.
No, the real problem is that Young had no one on his payroll show him the test before the combine.
On a test on which a score of 10 is deemed "literate," Young was rumored to have scored a 6. So for a couple of days, Young was subjected to the embarrassment of people questioning whether he was literally ********. The reports of a 6 were refuted, but he probably didn't do much better. If he did, the denials of the 6 would have come attached with an actual score. Young did score a 16 on the second try, but that's still below what most execs look for from a quarterback.
This is all Young's agent's fault.
Any agent worth his percentage has drilled his client repeatedly on strategies for getting a high score on the test -- especially an agent representing a player whose stock could do nothing but fall. Standardized tests are all about knowing the test. That Young and his agent knew the test was coming and did nothing to prepare for it is inexcusable.
Young, however, does not have a traditional agent. He's represented by Major Adams, a criminal attorney in Houston and a friend of the Young family. When asked by Chip Brown of the Dallas Morning News why he chose Adams as his agent -- and his uncle, a middle school teacher and coach, as his business manager -- Young said, "They know what I want, the things that I believe in. They know where I'm trying to go, the things I want to do for the community."
Too bad there's no reason to believe they know how to get those things. His advisors, who must have been recommended by MC Hammer Consulting, didn't tell him that wearing a sweatshirt to the White House isn't the way to get where he wants to go.
The Wonderlic score, combined with things like that, is a recipe to fall to the middle of the first round.
In the grand scheme of things, no one cares whether a football player is smart. There's something wildly ironic about people questioning whether someone is smart enough to do a job in which a man with children who continues playing football after having a stroke is lavished with praise, and which celebrates those who risk permanent injury while playing with broken bones.
That's not what smart people do, no matter how smart the Wonderlic says some of these guys are.
In adulthood, results are all that matter. And results are primarily the result of hard work and good judgment. The work ethic that keeps a quarterback in the film room late at night is what prepares him to identify coverages. No matter how smart someone is, it's repetition that prepares him. Smarts will get you nowhere else without elbow grease.
No one with a passing familiarity with Texas football questions Young's work ethic. Especially not Colt McCoy or Jevan Snead, the competitors for Young's old job who find themselves throwing to their receivers every night because that's what Young did last summer.
Judgment is the wild card with Vince. It's simply defined -- the basic ability to tell a good idea from a bad one -- but nearly impossible to measure. Until Big Brother invents a machine that knows exactly what factors people weigh when they make decisions (assuming he hasn't, of course), the only way to gauge someone's judgment is from the things we see them do.
And it seems Young's judgment needs improvement.
If nothing else, his disastrous trip to the combine showed he's made a bad decision in choosing his representation. Adams represents gospel star Yolanda Adams, and he negotiated Michael Lewis' contract when he was drafted by the Eagles in 2002. But Adams is in way over his head with Young.
Young is the most interesting prospect ever to hit the draft, even more so than Michael Vick in 2001. He's a quarterback with prototypical size, running back speed and an arm that's strong or accurate, but rarely both simultaneously. But even with that fundamental weakness, he is the Moses of Texas football. He was so good that casual observers didn't notice how loaded the Longhorns' roster was, that Young was the centerpiece of what many considered the most loaded recruiting class ever. He drips with the intangibles and leadership that great quarterbacks must have, and he does it all with a Montana-esque cool under fire.
Even though he has more of a 12-gauge than a rifle, that should spell a boatload of money for Vince, right? Sorta, according to Adams.
In that same interview with the Dallas Morning News, Adams was asked whether he was qualified to negotiate Young's contract. "I don't think it will be that much different because in the NFL, the contracts are pretty much slotted," Adams said. "Being a contract adviser, you get the contracts of the top picks and the top quarterbacks. They give you that information. It won't be that difficult."
Vince Young
David J. Phillip/AP Photo
No one doubts Young's athletic ability. But his judgment's in question. (David J. Phillip/AP Photo)
Huh?
Who are "they"?
If it's as easy as that, we should all go to agent school.
If salaries were really slotted like that, players wouldn't get to training camp late. If it were that easy, teams at the top of the draft wouldn't feel the need to negotiate with players before the draft. And surely contracts wouldn't be full of wrinkles, clauses, incentives, voidable years, roster bonuses and a bunch of other things that sound complicated to folks who work by the hour. If negotiating any NFL contract were that easy, agents would be the Maytag repairmen of the legal profession.
Young's choice of Adams was the stupid thing that should scare teams away -- not some test. It was a bad agent that started the Terrell Owens debacle in Philadelphia. Indirectly, it was a bad agent that got Ricky Williams into his mess in Miami. (Had Ricky signed a decent deal in New Orleans, he wouldn't have money problems.) In a delayed way, drafting Young may mean getting Drew Rosenhaus or a Bob Sugar type involved in a few years.
Yikes!
Young's Wonderlic scores should give teams pause about selecting him in the draft. But it doesn't matter a lick whether he's stupid. All that matters is whether he possesses the judgment to avoid doing stupid things. Right now, his judgment isn't looking so good.
And that will -- and should -- cost him more than flunking a stupid test.
Last edited:
Redsz said:
I'm sure you are very objective about this, seeing how you have Young in your avatar.
But the fact remains, Vince Young, on a test that my 5 year old might score a 6 on, scored only a 6, then was embarassed, took it again, and only scored a 16.......so he took the test twice, and still didn't do well.
I'll let you draw the conclusion, but I can't see him learning an NFL playbook.....if he can even read it.
Stout
Hold onto the ball, Murray!
Card Trader said:
True, Dan Marino could never learn an NFL playbook...er, wait, we're talking about Vince Young, right? Well, gee, they BOTH SCORED A 16!!!
Redsz
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Card Trader said:
Your flat out hating on the guy calling him 'dumb' and you want to call me out on being objective? That makes no sense what so ever.
He graduated from the University of Texas and was on the athletic honour roll. I'm willing to bet he could pick it up pretty well. But hey, lets not let academic qualifications get in the way of some good old fashioned hating on your part.
Tell me who gave you the right to turn your nose up at this guy based on his intelligence? How do you even know your any more intelligent than he is?
The Miami Dolphins are bringing Vince Young this week. They draft 16th and traded away their 2nd round pick. All NFL teams are limited in the number of players they can bring in for interviews, so it could be that the Fins think he will drop that far.
Vince Young may be this years Aaron Rogers, who drops on draft day.
Vince Young may be this years Aaron Rogers, who drops on draft day.
Stout
Hold onto the ball, Murray!
wallyburger said:
It's quite possible. I doubt he drops past us, but you never know. I never would have guessed Rogers would have dropped that far, but he did.
Stout said:
Could be this years Randy Moss or Jevon Kearse as well. Love those huge errors by NFL talent folks. It's what got us Dansby and Dockett.
I love them because we now have a guy on our selection committee who knows how to take advantage of those misjudgements instead of being one of the people making them like in years past.
"Hey Vince Mac Boone, this guy is 6'4" runs a 4.25 and caught more TD passes than anybody in NCAA history." "No we can't take a chance on him we heard a rumour from the Pioneer Press that the guys a trouble maker."
FrustratedFan04
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I keep reading things on ESPN and the like that Young's stock is falling and that now he's "merely" a top 15 pick.
This guy has 1 thing many others don't have. He rises to the occasion. Look at the Ohio State game and the national championship game. He just wins.
We have endured "flops" in the past. How could the Big Red pass on this guy if he were there at 10? I don't care if he got a 3 on the test he just seems to have an aura about him that says "I can f***ing play"!
This guy has 1 thing many others don't have. He rises to the occasion. Look at the Ohio State game and the national championship game. He just wins.
We have endured "flops" in the past. How could the Big Red pass on this guy if he were there at 10? I don't care if he got a 3 on the test he just seems to have an aura about him that says "I can f***ing play"!
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