THIS was all they asked of D'Antoni?? What a baby!

[cly2tw]

I wouldn't debate that. Maybe whoever we hire gets considered. My prediction is we win the Championship the year AFTER D'Antoni leaves!

 

[nowagimp]

I'm not saying he won't be successful in the EASTERN conference. There's only 2-3 teams that the Knicks have to worry about in the East. In fact, I bet he gets them in the playoffs NEXT season. That's not the point.

The point is they brought in Mike. Then they went and got him a PG that he needed for his system. At the time both PG and coach vowed to play out their run together. He turned his back on Nash and bailed when like you said "You were smart to leave." He never was going to get past his nemesis in SA, and now the Lakers and Hornets look as if they were going to make things rough on him in the next couple seasons. Pull the rip cord baby, I'm bailing out!

Next, after he couldn't win with just his PG, he was saying they needed a center. Viola, management went and got him the biggest center they could find! A guy with four championship rings! They even coincidentally had his contract status matched to Coach Mikes. So he had his MVP PG, and the MVP center he begged the Suns to get according to every article that mentions the Shaq trade. Basically he was telling management, you get me Shaq, I'll get you a title. Several articles say that management was leery of this trade but made it because of D'Antoni's enthusiasm for it.

So after management got him what he wanted, he couldn't win the Championship with it, he bailed. He got some constructive criticism from management? What $9 million dollar management position doesn't get some critique or outright criticism? The fans got mad he made a first round exit? He's an NBA coach! Suck it up! I remember Popovich got criticism when he first started coaching, but he didn't quit.

Everyone can bemoan we lost a winning coach. No argument from me on that. My beef isn't that we lost him, is that he QUIT on us! Even in his own words, he said he called Sarver and Kerr and said his heart wasn't in it and he didn't want to take their money. That HE wanted to coach elsewhere. It was his terms. He QUIT! No matter what he thought management, the fans, his players, or even his bartender said, he quit us!

Its obvious to me that you dont understand management culture. When you have backing you can do your job, if not it will be difficult. DA was marginalized by Kerr to force him out, standard procedure for a GM takeover. Any manager(or coach) who expects continued employment elsewhere doesnt burn bridges as this suggests he will do it again to the current or future prospective employer. I dont expect to hear anything bad out of DA's mouth, or BC's, and we didnt hear much out of PJ's mouth when reinsdorf ran him out of chicago.

But you know, regardless what did happen people will believe what they want to believe. Some just suck up whatever is said, others look at the reality of life experience. In interviewing for a high paid job you should never badmouth a former employer, never. I have conducted a number interviews over the years, and when someone does that, the standard procedure is to write them off as a disgruntled losers. the higher paid the job, the more damaging it is to badmouth a former employer. If you think a guy getting paid 4-5 mil is gonna commit career suicide to tell the truth, you are very naive. What DA did was leave town in a professional, business-like way, without acrimony. It was the smart thing to do, for his career.

As far as fans feeling abandoned, well thats really too bad if you feel that way, Im sure you would rather he was fired to prevent the "spurned" feeling. People shouldnt take others life choices too personally, people make choices for their careers and families first. Players leave, coaches leave, mostly because its a better choice for them. I've worked with a number of good people who left for career or family reasons, I dont feel the least bit spurned by them for their decisions.

Yeah, and you can be sure DA has had alot more pressure this past year than Pop did when he started out. Pop took over a lottery team with David robinson, a pick of TD, and a fan base that had not experienced the long term frustration, closing windows, or expectations that characterize phoenix suns basketball. In phoenix nothing less than a championship mattered this year and or will matter next. Even the lakers dont have that high of an expectation this year. Will the fans want to get rid of PJ if the lakers dont make the finals? The suns are probably the only team in the NBA that would be judged a failure this past year without a championship. If I was the suns coach with that bench, the aging player issues, and no maneuvering room, it seems clear that a championship likely wont be in the cards next year either.

 

[DeAnna]

This is true - you never bad mouth a former employer - it reflects badly upon you. There is an old saying "be nice to everyone on your way up, because you never know who you'll run into on your way down."

 

[Yuma]

Its obvious to me that you dont understand management culture. When you have backing you can do your job, if not it will be difficult. DA was marginalized by Kerr to force him out, standard procedure for a GM takeover. Any manager(or coach) who expects continued employment elsewhere doesnt burn bridges as this suggests he will do it again to the current or future prospective employer. I dont expect to hear anything bad out of DA's mouth, or BC's, and we didnt hear much out of PJ's mouth when reinsdorf ran him out of chicago.

But you know, regardless what did happen people will believe what they want to believe. Some just suck up whatever is said, others look at the reality of life experience. In interviewing for a high paid job you should never badmouth a former employer, never. I have conducted a number interviews over the years, and when someone does that, the standard procedure is to write them off as a disgruntled losers. the higher paid the job, the more damaging it is to badmouth a former employer. If you think a guy getting paid 4-5 mil is gonna commit career suicide to tell the truth, you are very naive. What DA did was leave town in a professional, business-like way, without acrimony. It was the smart thing to do, for his career.

As far as fans feeling abandoned, well thats really too bad if you feel that way, Im sure you would rather he was fired to prevent the "spurned" feeling. People shouldnt take others life choices too personally, people make choices for their careers and families first. Players leave, coaches leave, mostly because its a better choice for them. I've worked with a number of good people who left for career or family reasons, I dont feel the least bit spurned by them for their decisions.

Yeah, and you can be sure DA has had alot more pressure this past year than Pop did when he started out. Pop took over a lottery team with David robinson, a pick of TD, and a fan base that had not experienced the long term frustration, closing windows, or expectations that characterize phoenix suns basketball. In phoenix nothing less than a championship mattered this year and or will matter next. Even the lakers dont have that high of an expectation this year. Will the fans want to get rid of PJ if the lakers dont make the finals? The suns are probably the only team in the NBA that would be judged a failure this past year without a championship. If I was the suns coach with that bench, the aging player issues, and no maneuvering room, it seems clear that a championship likely wont be in the cards next year either.

Are you kidding me?? I worked on a military base for 15 years and saw managers work in probably way tougher situations than D'Antoni and not just survive, but come out the other end surviving. The bottom line is he quit. Why can't you admit it? Just say it and the truth will set you free!

You mean to tell me in all your vast management experience no one ever questioned your management techniques or style? A boss NEVER said something in front of employees about you that you wish he hadn't? You have never seen guys fulfill their contracts even when others thought them to be less effective than they wanted them to be? You have to be kidding me?

If some of the managers I worked with tucked their tails and ran when things got tough, we would have never achieved anything!

Good luck to Mike. I have even said he's going to thrive next year in New York. I've also said that I think he's going to be successful. The point I'm making is his leaving is like a guy divorcing his wife for not making the bed. The points HE said, and management said were trivial at best. Also, everyone behind the scenes had indicated that Mike was too sensitive. No having to read between the lines. All the lines were in the open. They all said what happened without bad mouthing each other. Maybe in your experience employees have to bad mouth you to move on. I never said either side did that in this case. You can say what happened in an event without bad mouthing someone AND it can be the TRUTH!

You can always try and make more of a conspiracy of this than it is.

BTW, I have two bachelors in management. I think I have a "slight" understanding of management culture. I don't feel spurned at all. I just resent the fact D'Antoni is trying to play martyr when he made all the decisions for his career. He wanted to move on, he did, so no reason to imply management was being unreasonable.

PS: Case in point: Tom Coughlin! This man was skewered by players, management, the media, fans. It was rumored he was going to be fired. Management called him in and asked him to change his WHOLE management style. Did he quit? No! He took management's suggestions, changed his style almost a complete 180 degrees and ended up winning the Super Bowl!

 

[BC867]

Prediction: Mike D'Antoni wins Coach of the Year next year.

By raising a team during the regular season that has finished below .500 for the past, what is it, eleven years? Let him have Coach of the Year.

We were striving for a Championship -- "eyes on the prize". And D'Antoni couldn't do it. Despite being selected Coach of the Year.

 

[Yuma]

This is true - you never bad mouth a former employer - it reflects badly upon you. There is an old saying "be nice to everyone on your way up, because you never know who you'll run into on your way down."

The point has nothing to do with Mike not bad mouthing Sarver and Kerr. It's him saying he felt uncomfortable staying and wanted to leave. Geez, if I quit work every time I felt "uncomfortable." LOL!

 

[cly2tw]

Everybody needs some excuse to make themselves look better. That's fine. DA is passe now, let's just focus on Suns future.

 

[Irish]

Everybody needs some excuse to make themselves look better. That's fine. DA is passe now, let's just focus on Suns future.

Mostly I agree. D'Antoni's plight of never having a fully healthy team in the playoffs makes his legacy unclear. Losting a starter (or having him only at half speed) seems to be Mike's curse. As a rule, starters are starters because they are better than backups and a lot better than bottom bench guys who might replace their minutes or their sub's minutes.

But it doesn't matter anymore. Right now the only issue is how much changing coaches will alter the way the team plays. After four years of having suggestions shot down because "Mike would never do that" gets old, so maybe we can start thinking outside Mike's box without just dumping on him.

 

[Yuma]

Mostly I agree. D'Antoni's plight of never having a fully healthy team in the playoffs makes his legacy unclear. Losting a starter (or having him only at half speed) seems to be Mike's curse. As a rule, starters are starters because they are better than backups and a lot better than bottom bench guys who might replace their minutes or their sub's minutes.

But it doesn't matter anymore. Right now the only issue is how much changing coaches will alter the way the team plays. After four years of having suggestions shot down because "Mike would never do that" gets old, so maybe we can start thinking outside Mike's box without just dumping on him.

I think a lot had to do with Mike wearing down guys. Nash always seemed tired come playoffs. I know Grant Hill has a bad history of being hurt, but he was slowing down before the injury. Raja Bell looks like he's playing on fumes right now. You have a team that is "mature," you need to keep their minutes down. With the exception of Nash, D'Antoni could have rotated more guys and evened out minutes. I don't buy his theory that there's only really minutes for 7 or 8 guys and it's hard to work people in after that. Other teams seem to do it.

You are right. We have to cheer on a new coach anyway.

 

[nowagimp]

I think a lot had to do with Mike wearing down guys.

Grant Hill seemed to think that Pat Riley wore down guys alot more with the long practices, he said it, not me. Could it be that DA wore down a guy that hasnt plyed a full year in ten seasons? Who else could have taken Hills minutes without the suns losing 5 more games and falling out of the playoffs? DA had a rep for NOT wearing down guys among the players. And the suns starters did not play alot of minutes compared with other teams starters, that discussion is so old here it stinks like a dead fish. But if youre already convinced that all the problems are due to DA, then you come up with stuff like DA wears down guys, thats why they get appendectomies and dont recover. Thats why they smash their face(JJ). Thats why they have bone chips on the elbow(leo), or get microfracture. But David west played 38 minutes/game this year and amare 36 the year before his surgery. I guess Byron Scott plays his guys too much, he's a dumb coach as well as now west is injured at the wrong time. And Kobe seems to be wearing down with multiple problems, perhaps PJ is a dummie for playing him too much.

But the anti DA crowd will always find a reason that its DA's fault, the same as the DA lovers or sarver lovers or Kerr lovers will always defend those guys, regardless. Its like love and hate, those you love can do no wrong and those you hate can do no right and are responsible for all things wrong, like a spurned woman.

 

[Mainstreet]

The suns are probably the only team in the NBA that would be judged a failure this past year without a championship. If I was the suns coach with that bench, the aging player issues, and no maneuvering room, it seems clear that a championship likely wont be in the cards next year either.

Excellent post. Obviously no Championship equals being a bad coach with many Suns fans. I don't think this mentality can carry over into next season with a new coach. The Suns will likely try to just string it out until Nash and Shaq are off the books. IMO the Suns are ripe for rebuilding now but will probably have to wait two years to do so (or I think that is Kerr's position now). However, I'm betting if the Suns are not playing well by next season's trading deadline the Suns will go into rebuild mode before the deadline.

 

[BC867]

Could it be that DA wore down a guy that hasnt played a full year in ten seasons?

We all knew of Grant Hill's fragility, but D'Antoni didn't manage it properly. Yes, the Coach wore him down.

Who else could have taken Hills minutes without the suns losing 5 more games and falling out of the playoffs?

How about Boris Diaw, except that D'Antoni was obsessed with playing him at Center and Power Forward . . . until the last two playoff games when he showed his skills at Small Forward.

 

[Yuma]

Grant Hill seemed to think that Pat Riley wore down guys alot more with the long practices, he said it, not me. Could it be that DA wore down a guy that hasnt plyed a full year in ten seasons? Who else could have taken Hills minutes without the suns losing 5 more games and falling out of the playoffs? DA had a rep for NOT wearing down guys among the players. And the suns starters did not play alot of minutes compared with other teams starters, that discussion is so old here it stinks like a dead fish. But if youre already convinced that all the problems are due to DA, then you come up with stuff like DA wears down guys, thats why they get appendectomies and dont recover. Thats why they smash their face(JJ). Thats why they have bone chips on the elbow(leo), or get microfracture. But David west played 38 minutes/game this year and amare 36 the year before his surgery. I guess Byron Scott plays his guys too much, he's a dumb coach as well as now west is injured at the wrong time. And Kobe seems to be wearing down with multiple problems, perhaps PJ is a dummie for playing him too much.

But the anti DA crowd will always find a reason that its DA's fault, the same as the DA lovers or sarver lovers or Kerr lovers will always defend those guys, regardless. Its like love and hate, those you love can do no wrong and those you hate can do no right and are responsible for all things wrong, like a spurned woman.

All I am saying is most of them did look visibly tired. When Nash's shooting percentage dropped off, Bell's three point shot flattened even more than usual, etc., it is just a coincidence it happened at the end of the season.

I am not dismissing your post. You brought up excellent points. Our team is half young, with Amare, Barbosa, Diaw, etc. It's also half OLD with Nash, Shaq, Bell, Hill, etc. Amare SHOULD be able to play the minutes he's getting. The older guys should be getting a break, at least at the end of the season at least, to get fresh for the playoffs. Lots of teams do this. Especially the Spurs. Some of their guys rarely play due to "injury" and then are good to go come playoffs!

D'Antoni IS a good coach. I am just saying they asked him to make what a lot of us here thought would be good tweeks to the team, and he seemingly threw a hissy fit about it. I just think it's a character issue. Others think it's not.

 

[Mainstreet]

I'm certainly tired of this whole matter and I would like to move on. However, in D'Antoni, the Suns had a coach with a winning system. I think he averaged like 58 wins the last four years. Yes he did not win a Championship but he had only a brief window as a HC to do so. However, where I really depart from those who dislike D'Antoni is the expectation a new coach is going to get it done the next couple of seasons... I really hope I'm wrong. I think the Suns fans are going to have to be patient with the new coach as the window to win a Championship has closed (or nearly has closed). Next season is it and that's being very optimistic IMO. When the Suns rebuild the team, it's much easier to rebuild having a coach with a winning system... but D'Antoni will be gone. Maybe some should remember before D'Antoni arrived. Rebuilding can get very ugly.

 

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

Personally, I am fully content accepting a "learning curve" for the new coach as long as he displays critical thinking skills. dantoni had a great system, no doubt about it, but he couldnt adapt quicker than his competition. Diminishing returns are inevitable for a stubborn coach with a phenomenal initial idea. He had a great theory, it worked great, but he didn't help it evolve. He kept pushing the same ideas, same rhetoric and same expectations, but hoped for better results. Some say that's the definition of insanity.

So in conclusion, Dantoni, your ideas were awesome, but you did nothing to improve your flaws, and not admitting that tweaking needs to be done makes me not miss your coaching one bit.

 

[Irish]

IMHO, the problem with D'Antoni's system was that it was too hard to get people who could adequately fit it and still do everything needed.

D'Antoni is all about versatility and basketball IQ. He wants skill guys who can do everything well and will give up a certain amount of physical ability to get it. It also leads to intollerance for guys making "rookie mistakes".

 

[mojorizen7]

- he had only a brief window as a HC
-the expectation a new coach is going to get it done the next couple of seasons...

-Brief? He had plenty of talent and four off-seasons.

-I have no expectations of that. IMO the SUNS began re-tooling when SHAQ was brought in here,followed by the "force out" of D'Antoni. We're probably in for 3-4 yrs of re-positioning for a title run.

 

[mojorizen7]

IMHO, the problem with D'Antoni's system was that it was too hard to get people who could adequately fit it and still do everything needed.

D'Antoni is all about versatility and basketball IQ. He wants skill guys who can do everything well and will give up a certain amount of physical ability to get it. It also leads to intollerance for guys making "rookie mistakes".

I agree but would also add that his system lends itself to poor fundamentals like setting good solid picks,defensive rotation's,boxing out,guys playing out of position,a free pass into the lane for layups,......but those things aren't really important as long as you score more points than the opponent right?(sarcasm incase you're wondering)

 

[Irish]

I agree but would also add that his system lends itself to poor fundamentals like setting good solid picks,defensive rotation's,boxing out,guys playing out of position,a free pass into the lane for layups,......but those things aren't really important as long as you score more points than the opponent right?

What do you think the D'Antoni system is?

IMHO, it is an offensive system based on speed and matchups designed to spread the floor and create open jump shots. They run a lot of pick and roll, will the Nash to Amare combo considered the best since Stockton to Malone. They run some stuff with jumpers off screens, some backdoor, and some drive and kick. There is an emphasis on passing, although they sometimes spend too much time waiting for Nash to pass them the ball.

The addition of Shaq has led to some two man game in the post (which is new) and posting up Diaw generated more use of plays off bassing from the post.

What you don't see in the D'Antoni system are clearout plays, stardard motion patterns, Princeton high post, nor a lot of back screens.

The Suns don't play consistently good defense, but that is only effected by the D'Atnoni offensive system in that they don't practice defense enough. He was also reluctant to use defensive specialists even for a short period.

 

[mojorizen7]

D'Antoni's system IMO requires intelligent athletes who can run,pass and shoot.
His system is designed to move fast and furious and create mismatches in the open floor.
The system if run successfully requires shooting at an above average(at times too high) FG% in order to compensate for the lack of offensive and to a lesser extend...defensive rebounding. By ignoring the shot clock in order to run,the hope is to wear down the opponent in transition and by taking more shots than the opponent...you give yourself more opportunities to score.
On defense,it's basically a committee tip-drill in the rebounding department,and with the focus on offensive transition....it allows for things like uncontested layups and the frontcourt being out-of-position on defense.
The problem,IMO,is that whether you want to throw out statistics or not,the tempo,the officiating,the physicality all change in the post-season. One need only to turn on their television to witness that.
I could go on but i'll bet you know where i'm headed with this because it's been stated 100 times already on this board and still there are DA apologist's that believe in DA and his reg season gimmick system.
Irish,i don't know if you're an NFL fan but if you are,do some research on Mike Martz and you'll find that the similarities are astounding.

 

[JCSunsfan]

It uses lack of defense as a strategy.

It uses uncontested layups to lure the opponent into a fast paced game that eventually gives his team the advantage through conditioning and speed in the latter part of the game.

The problem is that it cannot work without superb athletes. And it is not likely going to work with an aging roster.

In the grind it out, grab and push playoffs, it is hard to keep the pace going without the refs calling the game close. Even if they do call the game close, it slows the pace, to his own team's disadvantage.

After the Shaq for Marion trade, our team was better suited to be consistent in the playoffs, but not better suited to run DAntoni's system. He was outcoached in the the Spurs series because his team no longer fit him. If the coaches had been switched (MD coaching the Spurs, and Pop coaching the Suns) in that series, the Suns would have won in no more than 5 games.

 

[cly2tw]

It uses lack of defense as a strategy.

It uses uncontested layups to lure the opponent into a fast paced game that eventually gives his team the advantage through conditioning and speed in the latter part of the game.

The problem is that it cannot work without superb athletes. And it is not likely going to work with an aging roster.

In the grind it out, grab and push playoffs, it is hard to keep the pace going without the refs calling the game close. Even if they do call the game close, it slows the pace, to his own team's disadvantage.

After the Shaq for Marion trade, our team was better suited to be consistent in the playoffs, but not better suited to run DAntoni's system. He was outcoached in the the Spurs series because his team no longer fit him. If the coaches had been switched (MD coaching the Spurs, and Pop coaching the Suns) in that series, the Suns would have won in no more than 5 games.

That's the core trait of his system as it was successful the first couple of years with Suns. That's why he couldn't change despite everybody told him too. That's why, once figured out and fighted with a disciplined defense, we can't win against good teams. And Amare and LB become less effective once forced out of the "system" by those defense. With the aging, the system has to go. Other approach has to come in to better fit the roster.

 

[Mainstreet]

-Brief? He had plenty of talent and four off-seasons.

-I have no expectations of that. IMO the SUNS began re-tooling when SHAQ was brought in here,followed by the "force out" of D'Antoni. We're probably in for 3-4 yrs of re-positioning for a title run.

D'Antoni had four realistic years to win a Championship. Wow, that's a long time... not. I must say Mojorizen7, your expectations are very high.

I'm sure the Suns new coach will be so much better than D'Antoni, as you say, it will only take him 3-4 years of re-positioning. However, it only took one season for D'Antoni to turn the Suns around to position for a title run.

 

[mojorizen7]

D'Antoni had four realistic years to win a Championship. Wow, that's a long time... not. I must say Mojorizen7, your expectations are very high.
I'm sure the Suns new coach will be so much better than D'Antoni, as you say, it will only take him 3-4 years of re-positioning. However, it only took one season for D'Antoni to turn the Suns around to position for a title run.

Well i would argue that the team D'Antoni rolled out in his first full year in *04-05 was a notch above whatever team we roll out for the new HC in 08-09.
D'Antoni was given quite a team for his 1st training camp. It's not like he had an aging veteran team with big holes and no salary cap flexability.
He had ample time to adjust & "get it right."
*Steve Nash (entering his prime)>Steve Nash(current)
Joe Johnson>Raja Bell
Q Richardson>Leandro Barbosa
Shawn Marion>Boris Diaw
Amare Stoudemire(better now)
Steven Hunter IMO better than current SHAQ but we had no center so this a tough comparison. Still, i doubt a 36 yr old SHAQ would be very high on the list of any of our new HC candidates vs a young,athletic,albeit offensively limited shot blocker.

 

[SirStefan32]

Well i would argue that the team D'Antoni rolled out in his first full year in *04-05 was a notch above whatever team we roll out for the new HC in 08-09.
D'Antoni was given quite a team for his 1st training camp. It's not like he had an aging veteran team with big holes and no salary cap flexability.
He had ample time to adjust & "get it right."
*Steve Nash (entering his prime)>Steve Nash(current)
Joe Johnson>Raja Bell
Q Richardson>Leandro Barbosa
Shawn Marion>Boris Diaw
Amare Stoudemire(better now)
Steven Hunter IMO better than current SHAQ but we had no center so this a tough comparison. Still, i doubt a 36 yr old SHAQ would be very high on the list of any of our new HC candidates vs a young,athletic,albeit offensively limited shot blocker.

I agree with you on almost everything here, but I have to ask one thing:
Are you seriously suggesting that Steven Hunter, at any point in his career is better than Shaq at any point in his career?