Thoughts on Player Rankings and The Cardinals' Draft

Mitch

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1. I thought you'd all like to see Pro Football Focus.com's player rankings for 2009. I am not quite sure how they arrive at their rankings...it seems like a set of computer coefficients based on a series of categories for each position based on the number of snaps and the production...but, it's an interesting set of results.

QB: Warner-11
RB: Wells-22; Hightower-56
WR: Fitzgerald-6; Boldin-18; Breaston-34
TE: Patrick-13; Becht-24
T: Gandy-68; L. Brown-72
G: Hadnot-17; Lutui-46; Wells-81
C: Sendlein-22
NT: Robinson-33; Watson-36
DE: Campbell-5; Branch-10; Dockett-27
ILB: Dansby-19; Hayes-48
ILB: (Andra Davis-5; Foote-26; Morrison-27; Vilma-28; Ayodele-51).
OLB: Haggans-14; (Porter-22); Okeafor-26; Berry-27
CB: Rodgers-Cromartie-4; Adams-40; R. Brown-58; McFadden-89
S: Rhodes-2; Wilson-11; Ware-62; Rolle-67
K: Rackers-18
P: Graham-2
KR: Stephens-Howling-24; Breaston-205

Not sure how or why Branch is 10th and Dockett is 27th. That one is a little mystifying...but some of the other results seemed reasonable.

But...these rankings do give some credence to the consistency we saw from the likes of Campbell and Haggans...and to see that despite his frustration with the Jets Kerry Rhodes still graded out as the #2 safety, while Antrel Rolle was a distant 67. Hmmm...

I think it would be a coup for the Cardinals if they could acquire recently released SILB Andra Davis and pair him with WILB Larry Foote on the inside. Wow.

The Cardinals need thicker DEs for the 4 man rush...which is why signing DE/OLB Joey Porter is so important. He would take Bertrand Berry's spot at RDE, and at LDE Clark Haggans was solid, but I think it would be wise for the Cardinals to use the #26 pick on a thick DE/OLB type to play opposite Porter in the 4 man rush. The players that I like best in that role: Brandon Graham (6-2, 270, Michigan), Carlos Dunlap (6-6, 280, Florida), Everson Griffen (6-3, 265, USC), Kao Misi (6-3, 263, Utah) and Jerry Hughes (6-3, 257, TCU)...in that order.

I am not as high on taking a NT at #26 as others are. In today's game because of the emphasis on the passing game, the NTs play less and less...and when they do play, teams often counter by throwing the ball. It's important to have a couple of big players there, don't get me wrong. But, the Cardinals already have two solid options at NT in Alan Branch and Gabe Watson. Branch has to be a starter on this defense. He was drafted to be the NT and at his size and stength he should be a force there. He can kick down to DE at times when Watson is in at NT. It would be great if the Cardinals do acquire UFA DE/NT Nick Eason (Steeers) as he could provide depth at both spots.

But as of right now the two DEs in the 4 man rush are Clark Haggans and Cody Brown. Haggans, at his age, needs to be rotated in and out of the 4 man rush and we really don't know if the hybrid OLB/DEs Cody Brown, Will Davis, Mark Washington or Stevie Baggs can be consistently effective rushing the passer in a 4 man line. This uncertainty further confirms the need to sign Porter and draft a thicker DE/OLB type.

At the #58 spot the player I am wishing for is Kao Misi (6-3, 263, Utah), because I think he can contribute right away and is such a good, versatile athlete that he could play both on the inside and the outside the way Mike Vrable did for years with the Patriots. I worry that he will be taken prior to #58, but I think it's possible that he will be there.

If Misi is gone, I know the board is still iffy about ILB Daryl Washington (6-3, 228, TCU), because of his weight, but I think that John Lott could do wonders with him and he could be groomed to take over for Larry Foote in a year or two. Washington plays hard and tough, and is the kind of ahtlete you want on the weak side because he can chase, fill, spoil screens and cover. But, because his weight is a concern, maybe he will still be on the board at #88/#89.

If both Misi and Washington are off the board at #58, I could see the Cardinals selecting one of the three following WRs: Brandon LaFell (6-3, 206, LSU), DeMarius Thomas (6-3, 229, Georgia Tech) or Taylor Price (6-0, 198, Ohio). LaFell is a Boldin clone. Thomas is a Vincent Jackson type, and Price is a speedy (4.36) burner like DeSean Jackson, only a little bigger.

At #88...this is where I think the Cardinals could go in a number of different directions depending on what players are on the board. I had been targeting Alabama G Mike Johnson (6-6, 308) with this pick, but now that the Cardinals have signed G/C Rex Hadnot, it might be wiser to address another position at this spot. Two players that make sense to me are T Jared Veldheer (6-8, 315, Hillside)...imagine him side by side with Herman Johnson (6-7, 382), or as opposite bookends...and CB Dominique Franks (6-0, 192, Oklahoma)...yup another Dominique, and while the Cardinals may be very tempted to take Kyle Wilson (5-10, 190, Boise st.) at #26, Franks is a similar athlete who, like Wilson, adds strong value as a punt returner.

At #89...do the Cardinals make a move for QB Charlie Whitehurst (6-4, 240, 5, Chargers) here? Perhaps they can swing a deal by offering their 4th rounder in 2011, which could become a 3rd rounder if Whitehurst starts more than half the games this year.

If the Cardinals do not make a move on Whitehurst and sign Derek Anderson (6-6, 230, 6) instead, selecting a QB at this spot or in Round 4 might be in their plans. Apparently with Cardinals' QB coach Mike Miller in attendance this week, Mike Kafka (6-3, 216, Northwestern) was very impressive at his Pro Day, missing only one throw all afternoon and showing good athleticism. If the Cardinals are genuinely interested they will have to consider taking Kafka here in fear that he might not be available when they pick late in Round 4. While most will say the #89 pick is way too high for Kafka based on the current rankings, if he's the QB you want, and because the QB position is so important, you consider taking him early rather than miss out on him later...unless, that is, there's another QB you are equally high on that you believe will be on the board in Round 4.

I think it's entirely possible that the Cardinals will give up the #89 pick for Whitehurst and draft Mike Kafka in the 4th round if he is available there. That would solidify their depth at the position.

However, if the Cardinals feel comfortable in waiting on a QB in the draft, at #89 they can take a CB like Franks or the latest hyphen phenom CB Akwansi Owusu-Ansah (6-0, 205, Indiana-PA) or address the WR position by going with cat-quick, sure handed WR Andre Roberts (5-11, 192, The Citadel) or tall and sneaky fast WR Eric Decker (6-3, 215, Minnesota).

In the 4th round, the Cardinals may reach for a player they like, seeing as they do not have a 5th round pick and won't pick again until late in the 6th round. I have been thinking QB Mike Kafka in this spot. If the Cardinals don't take a QB here I think they will be targeting another ILB here and the two best bets are LB Donald Butler (6-1, 244, Washington) and LB Pat Angerer (6-0, 235, Iowa) both of whom are sideline to sideline chasers, good tacklers and solid cover LBers.

Thus, here's what I am hoping for:

Signing:

SILB Andra Davis
OLB/DE Joey Porter
WILB Larry Foote
DE/NT Nick Eason
QB Charlie Whitehurst (conditional 4th/3rd rounder in 2011)

Drafting:

1. LB Kao Misi (6-3, 263, Utah). The three OLB/DEs I was hoping for above him, Graham, Dunlap and Griffen will be off the board and Misi's versatility to play inside and outside is too attractive to pass up.

2. WR Taylor Price (6-0, 190, Ohio). Becomes the home run deep threat and speed compliment to Fitz, Breasty and Early. Can occupy the FS and keep the middle open for Fitz and Early.

3a. LB Daryl Washington (6-2, 226, TCU). At this spot is total value. Within two years is the starter at WILB.

3b. CB Dominique Franks (6-0, 190, Okalhoma). Good cover man with decent size and very good aggressiveness. Good punt returner.

4. QB Mike Kafka (6-3, 226, Northwestern). A gritty competitor who brings toughness and athleticism to the position. Could be used as a Wildcat QB initially.

6. TE Jim Dray (6-5, 247, Stanford). Whiz's kind of TE. Smart, tough, sure-handed.

7. SS Cody Grimm (5-11, 210, Virginia Tech). The new Sean Morey on STs and a backup at SS. This pick is legit, not just for the sake of nepotism!
 
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Pariah

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Re: Misi and versatility

I wonder if versatility isn't going to be as big a deal to the Cardinals moving forward as it was under penderghast. I go the sense Pendy put a premium on versatility so he could move guys around more than a defense typically might, and I get the sense that Davis is a little more traditional in his players' roles.
 

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You're about 20 pounds off Misi's weight. He weighed in at 244 at the combine.
 

joeshmo

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Is Misi the new Soup de jure for this week?

Classic workout warrior type with not much production or film to back it up. Only saw two games mind you of his but he was getting destroyed in the run game and couldn't take on a block to save his life. IMO he is a smaller and very poor mans version of his teammate last year Paul Kruger, who himself wasn't exactly all that with the Ravens last year.

I also think Washington is going to be snagged up by a team that uses the Cover 2. I think he would be perfect in that scheme as the deep linebacker.
 
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DoTheDew

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On the player ratings, especially the DEs, I believe Branch is inflated because he plays few minutes and last season was very effective in limited time. This is the problem with efficiency ratings, it cannot factor in stamina in any logical manner. It would be interesting to see where players rank if only guys who played the majority of snaps were included.

I would love that FA other than giving up a mid round pick for Whitehurst. He might have talent but we just don't know and I don't want to throw a pick which could one day be a starter at a guy who hasn't even proven he is a good backup.

I give that draft a solid B but would like another NT as I don't consider Branch a NT but a DE as these rankings showed he was good at being a situational 3-4 DE.
 

Shogun

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You are a lot higher on Misi than I am.
 
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Mitch

Mitch

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Is Misi the new Soup de jure for this week?

Classic workout warrior type with not much production or film to back it up. Only saw two games mind you of his but he was getting destroyed in the run game and couldn't take on a block to save his life. IMO he is a smaller and very poor mans version of his teammate last year Paul Kruger, who himself wasn't exactly all that with the Ravens last year.

I also think Washington is going to be snagged up by a team that uses the Cover 2. I think he would be perfect in that scheme as the deep linebacker.

Let's see what real scouts who have seen Misi more than two times had to say about him (which directly contradicts everything you said):

From Frank Cooney (NFL Draft Scout/CBS Sports/USA Today):

"Koa Misi (6-3, 251, LB, Utah) is a pick your poison type of athlete who is powerful enough to take on and shed a blocker on the spot and fast enough to run around you and chase down his victim. Put that together with excellent instincts, a high-rev motor and team-leader type personality and this prospect should fit well on somebody's roster. Misi impressed sscouts at the Senior Bowl with his overall ability."

From Rob Rang (The Sports Xchange, NFL Draft Scout. com):

"Koa Misi, who I listed monts ago as a Diamond in the Rough has emerged as a legitimate top 75 candidate after impressing during the Senior Bowl and at the Combine in drills. Misi, a DE for the Utes, is considered more athletic than former teammate Paul Kruger (2nd round pick, Baltimore, last year)...he ran a 4.21 short shuttle and looked very good in positional drills."

What I love about Misi is his relentlessness on the field...look at how consistent he was at Utah:

(2007-2009)

Tackles: 65 (2007), 68 (2008), 71 (2009)...that's a high number of tackles for a defensive lineman no matter where you play.

TFL: 8, 8.5, 9.5

Sacks: 2.5, 3, 5

Guess how many games Utah won and lost in those three years? See answer below.

The thing about him especially now that he's shed a few pounds is that he can play inside or out in the 3-4.

The Cardinals need top-notch tacklers who are relentless in pursuit and who show leadership. This kid brings such a package.

34-5...including 13-0 in 2008.
 
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Crazy Canuck

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Is Misi the new Soup de jure for this week?

Classic workout warrior type with not much production or film to back it up. Only saw two games mind you of his but he was getting destroyed in the run game and couldn't take on a block to save his life. IMO he is a smaller and very poor mans version of his teammate last year Paul Kruger, who himself wasn't exactly all that with the Ravens last year.

I also think Washington is going to be snagged up by a team that uses the Cover 2. I think he would be perfect in that scheme as the deep linebacker.

Soupe du jour....
 

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or Taylor Price (6-0, 198, Ohio).[/B] LaFell is a Boldin clone. Thomas is a Vincent Jackson type, and Price is a speedy (4.36) burner like DeSean Jackson, only a little bigger.

I know we probably need a TE more than we need a WR but it seems like forever since the Cards had a serious deep threat at WR. Mel Gray? Rob Moore? It would be interesting to see what a legit burner at WR would do for our O especially rushing the ball.
 

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On the player ratings, especially the DEs, I believe Branch is inflated because he plays few minutes and last season was very effective in limited time. This is the problem with efficiency ratings, it cannot factor in stamina in any logical manner. It would be interesting to see where players rank if only guys who played the majority of snaps were included.
That's a flaw in the rankings. They do not show accurately the stats as to actual minutes played. It's easier to inflate rankings when your only in the game half the time or less.
 
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Mitch

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You are a lot higher on Misi than I am.

Did you tape the Senior Bowl? Go check him out. This kid is all over the place and he plays with real style and all-out aggressiveness.
 
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Mitch

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WMitch, I thought we traded one of our 4th's this yr. and our 5th for 2011, in the Rhodes deal. Not the 5th THIS yr.

WildBB, it was a 4th this year and a 7th next year for Rhodes.

This year's 5th rounder we gave up in the Boldin trade to acquire their 3rd and 4th rounders.
 

Shogun

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Did you tape the Senior Bowl? Go check him out. This kid is all over the place and he plays with real style and all-out aggressiveness.
I'm not saying he's bad, but I just don't rate him as first-round talent. Graham, Pierre-Paul, Kindle and Hughes are the only rush linebackers that I rate as first rounders. Misi falls in the same tier as guys like Thad Gibson, Ricky Sapp, and Eric Norwood - and I give them second/third-round grades.
 

Chopper0080

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Is Misi the new Soup de jure for this week?

Classic workout warrior type with not much production or film to back it up. Only saw two games mind you of his but he was getting destroyed in the run game and couldn't take on a block to save his life. IMO he is a smaller and very poor mans version of his teammate last year Paul Kruger, who himself wasn't exactly all that with the Ravens last year.

I also think Washington is going to be snagged up by a team that uses the Cover 2. I think he would be perfect in that scheme as the deep linebacker.

I am in the "draft Misi in the 2nd round camp" so I will comment on why I like him. I agree that Misi didn't hold that well as a DE in college, nor do I really believe that he will have great success at a conversion position like DE/OLB. Where I really liked Misi was when I saw him playing SILB at the Senior Bowl. He had good instincts, and seemed to flow well inside. Essentially he was put in a position where he was playing in space, and he could use his tremendous athleticism to maneuver around linemen and get to the ball. He was ok at taking on the blocks because he could dictate the impact point, and linemen have a more difficult time blocking with leveage at the second level than they do on the line. This limited Misi's weakness at taking on blockers.

Also, Misi would provide us with depth at DE in nickel packages which would allow us to keep our edge rushers fresh. This is an area that we really struggled with last year.
 

joeshmo

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From Frank Cooney (NFL Draft Scout/CBS Sports/USA Today):

"Koa Misi (6-3, 251, LB, Utah) is a pick your poison type of athlete who is powerful enough to take on and shed a blocker on the spot and fast enough to run around you and chase down his victim. Put that together with excellent instincts, a high-rev motor and team-leader type personality and this prospect should fit well on somebody's roster. Misi impressed sscouts at the Senior Bowl with his overall ability."

Actually that doesn't contradict anything. He said is is powerful enough to take on blockers. He didn't say he did take on blockers. Two very different things. For example, branch is powerful but in the middle of the DL he doesn't show that power.

From Rob Rang (The Sports Xchange, NFL Draft Scout. com):

"Koa Misi, who I listed monts ago as a Diamond in the Rough has emerged as a legitimate top 75 candidate after impressing during the Senior Bowl and at the Combine in drills. Misi, a DE for the Utes, is considered more athletic than former teammate Paul Kruger (2nd round pick, Baltimore, last year)...he ran a 4.21 short shuttle and looked very good in positional drills."

Thanks to Rob for giving us a bunch of information about the guy without pads on, no actual game critiques.

I can post just as many info from the internet that you can saying things such as this from Scott Wright -

"Just average size --- Questionable instincts --- Has trouble getting off blocks --- Not a great run defender --- Inconsistent --- Minor durability concerns --- Mediocre sack production --- May not have a true position."

So far all you have talked about the guy is the 20 snaps you saw of him at the senior bowl and other non pad drills. So far my 2 games is way more then your 20 snaps in a game with limiting rules that doesn't even allow blitzing in it.
 
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joeshmo

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I am in the "draft Misi in the 2nd round camp" so I will comment on why I like him. I agree that Misi didn't hold that well as a DE in college, nor do I really believe that he will have great success at a conversion position like DE/OLB. Where I really liked Misi was when I saw him playing SILB at the Senior Bowl. He had good instincts, and seemed to flow well inside. Essentially he was put in a position where he was playing in space, and he could use his tremendous athleticism to maneuver around linemen and get to the ball. He was ok at taking on the blocks because he could dictate the impact point, and linemen have a more difficult time blocking with leveage at the second level than they do on the line. This limited Misi's weakness at taking on blockers.

Also, Misi would provide us with depth at DE in nickel packages which would allow us to keep our edge rushers fresh. This is an area that we really struggled with last year.

I can see that and where you are coming from, but I just cant get behind the player that only showed that in 20 snaps in an allstar game. Shows me its a project and experiment at best. Do not like experiments in the first couple of rounds thats when you get bitten.
 

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WMitch, I thought we traded one of our 4th's this yr. and our 5th for 2011, in the Rhodes deal. Not the 5th THIS yr.

Mitch is right.

We trade Boldin and a 5th this year to the Ravens for the 3rd and 4th this year.

We traded a 4th this year and a 7th in 2011 for Rhodes.
 

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Actually that doesn't contradict anything. He said is is powerful enough to take on blockers. He didn't say he did take on blockers. Two very different things. For example, branch is powerful but in the middle of the DL he doesn't show that power.



Thanks to Rob for giving us a bunch of information about the guy without pads on, no actual game critiques.

I can post just as many info from the internet that you can saying things such as this from Scott Wright -

"Just average size --- Questionable instincts --- Has trouble getting off blocks --- Not a great run defender --- Inconsistent --- Minor durability concerns --- Mediocre sack production --- May not have a true position."

So far all you have talked about the guy is the 20 snaps you saw of him at the senior bowl and other non pad drills. So far my 2 games is way more then your 20 snaps in a game with limiting rules that doesn't even allow blitzing in it.

True, and my defense of this is that the 10 or so snaps that I saw of him at the Senior Bowl were the only snaps that he took at the ILB position. This is where I think that he can be a special player more than at the DE or OLB spots.
 

joeshmo

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True, and my defense of this is that the 10 or so snaps that I saw of him at the Senior Bowl were the only snaps that he took at the ILB position. This is where I think that he can be a special player more than at the DE or OLB spots.

Fair enough, I just need to see more of it though which is why I put the experiment tag on him, just not enough film of him playing in space.
 

Chopper0080

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I can see that and where you are coming from, but I just cant get behind the player that only showed that in 20 snaps in an allstar game. Shows me its a project and experiment at best. Do not like experiments in the first couple of rounds thats when you get bitten.

Well there really are few college defensive players that this isn't the case for anymore when it comes to filling positions for the 3-4 defense. I understand where you are coming from, but this is a rare case that you can see a transition type 3-4 linebacker at the position that you are projecting him to. There are many players in this draft that you don't have this benefit. Brandon Graham, Jerry Hughes, Derrick Morgan & Pierre-Paul all might be taken in the first round and move to a spot that they have never played, and the only difference with Misi is that he is moving inside instead of outside. In truth it should be an easier conversion because he will be in limited space to either side.
 

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I know we probably need a TE more than we need a WR but it seems like forever since the Cards had a serious deep threat at WR. Mel Gray? Rob Moore? It would be interesting to see what a legit burner at WR would do for our O especially rushing the ball.

Um... Steve Breaston? Before him: David Boston?

The "we need a speed WR" shibboleth is one of the more annoying offseason concerns that comes up every year on the board. Who was Pittsburgh's vertical passing weapon?
 
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