Thoughts on the Cincinnati Loss

[Duckjake]

Many teams allow free edge rushers in the NFL as it is a staple to throw defenses out of blitzing just as much as screen plays are. It gives the WR's man coverage which is some of the best coverage to throw against and leads to big plays. Where Skelton fails is identifying the unblocked man, finding his one on one matchups and getting rid of the football. Every high profile offense in the NFL does this, and has success. Where the Cardinals fail is that they don't have a QB that is good enough to make the plays out of it. Blame the Cardinals coaches for not realizing that their Qb's aren't good enough to handle this type of offense, but to see it is ineffective is ignorant.

Note that we are not talking about an extra rusher coming in unblocked but the majority of the time it is a standard outside pass rusher, either the OLB in a 3-4 or the DE in a 4-3. For instance it was Carlos Dunlap the Bengals DE that was left unblocked when Bridges doubled inside on the 4th and 5 play. It isn't the Money Mikes or Daryl Washingtons coming off the edge unblocked its Sam Achos. That doesn't give the WRs any different coverage.

I don't understand the thinking in letting a guy come in completely unblocked. Wouldn't they be on your QB before any of your WRs can get open? Look at the film. Pass rushers are farther into our backfield than most of our WRs are downfield. Teams don't even let guys come in untouched on screen passes. The Cards do though and that's why the screens usually don't work.

The Cards had a perfect pass pattern called and didn't block it properly. If Bridges slows Dunlap even a little its a TD.

 

[Duckjake]

The players make the plays, not the coaches. The coaches didn't make Doucet fall, or cause Skelton to throw stupid interceptions. When you have a QB that can't make the presnap reads, it limits the offense's ability to adjust and exploit what the defense is doing. If a defense is blitzing and you have a poor line, you stop the blitz by completing passes to your receivers against man coverage, not by keep more overmatched TEs and RBs in to block.

Blame the coaches for failing to admit that their QBs aren't good enough to run the offense, but you can't blame them for having a poorly conceived offensive scheme because it isn't.

That makes it sound like coaching has no effect but we all know that isn't the case. Otherwise how do you explain CKW going to the SB with the same guys Denny Green went 5-11 with? How about the 49ers? Singletary couldn't get over .500 now Harbaugh has them at 12-3.

 

[40yearfan]

That makes it sound like coaching has no effect but we all know that isn't the case. Otherwise how do you explain CKW going to the SB with the same guys Denny Green went 5-11 with? How about the 49ers? Singletary couldn't get over .500 now Harbaugh has them at 12-3.

Good points.

 

[Mitch]

Note that we are not talking about an extra rusher coming in unblocked but the majority of the time it is a standard outside pass rusher, either the OLB in a 3-4 or the DE in a 4-3. For instance it was Carlos Dunlap the Bengals DE that was left unblocked when Bridges doubled inside on the 4th and 5 play. It isn't the Money Mikes or Daryl Washingtons coming off the edge unblocked its Sam Achos. That doesn't give the WRs any different coverage.

I don't understand the thinking in letting a guy come in completely unblocked. Wouldn't they be on your QB before any of your WRs can get open? Look at the film. Pass rushers are farther into our backfield than most of our WRs are downfield. Teams don't even let guys come in untouched on screen passes. The Cards do though and that's why the screens usually don't work.

The Cards had a perfect pass pattern called and didn't block it properly. If Bridges slows Dunlap even a little its a TD.

Thanks, Duck, for expressing this perfectly.

How many times have the Cardinals gotten a straight shot at the opponents' QB versus how many times the Cardinal QBs get it---it's not even remotely close. So to say every team has plays designed to allow for DEs to sprint unimpeded to the QB, is difficult to fathom...expect for screen passes where the QB is going to backpedal to buy time to avoid the hit and to make the throw.

The Cardinals' pass protection schemes are consistently flawed---which is why a defensive coaches like Pete Carroll or Marvin Lewis/Mike Zimmer have such an easy time exploiting them.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Thanks, Duck, for expressing this perfectly.

How many times have the Cardinals gotten a straight shot at the opponents' QB versus how many times the Cardinal QBs get it---it's not even remotely close. So to say every team has plays designed to allow for DEs to sprint unimpeded to the QB, is difficult to fathom...expect for screen passes where the QB is going to backpedal to buy time to avoid the hit and to make the throw.

The Cardinals' pass protection schemes are consistently flawed---which is why a defensive coaches like Pete Carroll or Marvin Lewis/Mike Zimmer have such an easy time exploiting them.

Scheme or execution....

Isn't the QB in tandem with the centre responsible for calling the pre-play adjustments?

(I doubt that when our tackles block inside, allowing an outside rusher free access that they do it on a whim. They are doing it based on the play call and the adjustments barked out by both the centre and QB.)

 

[Chopper0080]

Note that we are not talking about an extra rusher coming in unblocked but the majority of the time it is a standard outside pass rusher, either the OLB in a 3-4 or the DE in a 4-3. For instance it was Carlos Dunlap the Bengals DE that was left unblocked when Bridges doubled inside on the 4th and 5 play. It isn't the Money Mikes or Daryl Washingtons coming off the edge unblocked its Sam Achos. That doesn't give the WRs any different coverage.

I don't understand the thinking in letting a guy come in completely unblocked. Wouldn't they be on your QB before any of your WRs can get open? Look at the film. Pass rushers are farther into our backfield than most of our WRs are downfield. Teams don't even let guys come in untouched on screen passes. The Cards do though and that's why the screens usually don't work.

The Cards had a perfect pass pattern called and didn't block it properly. If Bridges slows Dunlap even a little its a TD.

Vs. blitz packages there are not any designed double teams which is how you can tell it was a blown blocking assignment by Bridges. Again we are talking about players not scheme. Levi has similar problems because he checks inside first and then struggles to kick back outside and block the wide rusher. One reason I would like the Cardinals to start looking for more athletic tackles because our current ones are limited athletically.

 

[WildBB]

Vs. blitz packages there are not any designed double teams which is how you can tell it was a blown blocking assignment by Bridges. Again we are talking about players not scheme. Levi has similar problems because he checks inside first and then struggles to kick back outside and block the wide rusher. One reason I would like the Cardinals to start looking for more athletic tackles because our current ones are limited athletically.

It's not just the individuals, the blocking scheme is to first control the middle, that's his first priority. Teams that play against us have WAYYY figured this scheme out. Not enough adjustments made on the fly.

 

[Chopper0080]

That makes it sound like coaching has no effect but we all know that isn't the case. Otherwise how do you explain CKW going to the SB with the same guys Denny Green went 5-11 with? How about the 49ers? Singletary couldn't get over .500 now Harbaugh has them at 12-3.

Coaches determine the schemes, and are responsible for putting players in positions to be successful in those schemes. Very rarely do NFL coaches have poor schemes, but what most struggle with is fitting players into their schemes and motivating/instilling players with confidence in those schemes. This is one reason that you see marginal or under performing players go from a poor team to a good team and have success. Players buy into Mike McCarthy, Sean Payton, and Bellichek (sp?) which allows them to put their ego aside and be productive within the scheme. When players don't believe in the scheme (see DRC last year) then they tend to be less productive and the team suffers. Managing players and selecting a staff are probably the most difficult parts of coaching in the NFL. That is where Singletary and Dennis Green both failed. Singletary couldn't manage his players and Dennis Green failed getting a solid defensive coaching staff and had marginal offensive production. Don't kid yourself, Kurt Warner is the reason Whis is still the Arizona head coach because Whis had the same problems with the defense.

Head coaches in the NFL are more babysitters than anything. They set up the day care, make the daily activity sched so that the kids have a structured enviorment, establish a staff to run those activities, and try and find the right mix of kids so that everything runs smooth. This is why good head coaches have good coaching staffs working for them. The coordinators and position coaches have more impact on the players performance than the head coach does, but the head coach determines how he wants things done and therefore also gets the blame.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

It's not just the individuals, the blocking scheme is to first control the middle, that's his first priority. Teams that play against us have WAYYY figured this scheme out. Not enough adjustments made on the fly.

Taking the blame

Quarterback John Skelton was sacked five times by the Bengals last Saturday, but he blamed himself for the majority of them.

"I'd say either three or four of them were probably on me," he said, "whether it's not throwing a 'hot' throw or not throwing a 'safety sight' or just holding it too long. Some of them are coverage sacks but at the same time, you just can't hold it back there forever."

 

[Chopper0080]

It's not just the individuals, the blocking scheme is to first control the middle, that's his first priority. Teams that play against us have WAYYY figured this scheme out. Not enough adjustments made on the fly.

True, you block from the inside out, but it is Bridges job to identify blitzers, communicate w/ his guard, and determine which player to block. Him doubling an inside player on a blitz shows that he thinks that the OG will be taking an inside blitzer, and he needs to slide inside on the tackle. If he slides down and the doubles the inside DT, the Bridges made the wrong read. This is why it is harder to play outside at tackle and offensive lines benefit from playing together and building cohesiveness. A professional OT should have the athleticism to check inside and then kick out to the edge rusher, but blame Whis on the fact that we don't have one that does on our roster.

 

[Chopper0080]

Taking the blame

Quarterback John Skelton was sacked five times by the Bengals last Saturday, but he blamed himself for the majority of them.

"I'd say either three or four of them were probably on me," he said, "whether it's not throwing a 'hot' throw or not throwing a 'safety sight' or just holding it too long. Some of them are coverage sacks but at the same time, you just can't hold it back there forever."

And in all fairness, our coaches should realize that he is not experienced enough to do all of these things. I like a lot about John Skelton, but it is painfully obvious that he isn't ready to be a starter yet. I blame Whis and Millar for not realizing this and not catering the offense more to Skelton and Kolb, but in truth, the scheme is sound but just very tough to execute.

 

[Russ Smith]

Taking the blame

Quarterback John Skelton was sacked five times by the Bengals last Saturday, but he blamed himself for the majority of them.

"I'd say either three or four of them were probably on me," he said, "whether it's not throwing a 'hot' throw or not throwing a 'safety sight' or just holding it too long. Some of them are coverage sacks but at the same time, you just can't hold it back there forever."

Well that can't be true with all the threads blaming Whiz for it.

 

[PDXChris]

Well that can't be true with all the threads blaming Whiz for it.

Hey now, that's not fair, no one ever blames him for the good stuff. Nope, Horton, Warner and Haley gets the long end of that stick.

 

[Duckjake]

True, you block from the inside out, but it is Bridges job to identify blitzers, communicate w/ his guard, and determine which player to block. Him doubling an inside player on a blitz shows that he thinks that the OG will be taking an inside blitzer, and he needs to slide inside on the tackle. If he slides down and the doubles the inside DT, the Bridges made the wrong read. This is why it is harder to play outside at tackle and offensive lines benefit from playing together and building cohesiveness. A professional OT should have the athleticism to check inside and then kick out to the edge rusher, but blame Whis on the fact that we don't have one that does on our roster.

Good point. Bridges has to be able to see that there are no extra rushers on his side and that Lutui has the DT while noboby has the DE if Jeremy goes inside. The blitz was coming from the other side. There was no reason for Bridges to block down. In fact it looked like Bridges just completely ignored Dunlap and was keying on the DT right from the start.

 

[kerouac9]

Skelton needs to do a better job w/ his pre snap reads before I will start blaming the coaches for our poor offensive performances.

You weren't blaming the coaches for poor offensive performances when Kolb, Derek Anderson, or Max Hall were the starters, either.

Exactly what would it take for you to start putting some onus on the coaching staff? Peyton Manning struggling in the first quarter here?

 

[AsUpRoDiGy]

Playcalling has certainly played a large role in the lack of success for both QB's. Take 3rd down for instance, both Kolb and Skelton are the 4th, and 5th Worst QB's in the NFL on 3rd down. Kolb has a 16.7 QBR on 3rd down, followed by Skelton at 17.6. The remarkable similarity can only mean one thing; the playcalling on 3rd down is atrocious at best, and the overall game plan requires both QB's to throw more than they should. Sando just wrote a good article on Kolb, which reflects his past year with AZ > http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcwest/post/_/id/55642/reflections-on-kolbs-first-cardinals-season

 

[Darkside]

What made Kurt so good is if he saw a run defense, stacked box, he audibled to a pass, if he saw a pass defense safeties back he ran the ball(sometimes).

Skelton isn't far enough along to do that he either can't read the defense or isn't making the right audible which is what Whiz was complaining about at halftime. The plays were there to be made but Skelton either wasn't making the throw, wasn't seeing the open guy, or wasn't making the right pre snap reads.

This, really, is the crux of the matter for me. Yes, Warner did sling it around early and often in games, but he also audibled to runs at the right times and gouged teams, especially with Edge and later Hightower. Whis is still strict with his audibling, in my opinion, because even KW said Whis allowed him basically one out audible from a run to a pass and vice versa, but at least he allowed him 3 choices of runs or passes in those audibles. Neither Kolb nor Skelton is nearly advanced enough in play knowledge, at this point, to warrant calling decent audibles. They both barely know what they're looking at right now. Even Warner was in our system for a couple years before he started busting out the game-winners.

 

[Snakester]

Note that we are not talking about an extra rusher coming in unblocked but the majority of the time it is a standard outside pass rusher, either the OLB in a 3-4 or the DE in a 4-3. For instance it was Carlos Dunlap the Bengals DE that was left unblocked when Bridges doubled inside on the 4th and 5 play. It isn't the Money Mikes or Daryl Washingtons coming off the edge unblocked its Sam Achos. That doesn't give the WRs any different coverage.

I don't understand the thinking in letting a guy come in completely unblocked. Wouldn't they be on your QB before any of your WRs can get open? Look at the film. Pass rushers are farther into our backfield than most of our WRs are downfield. Teams don't even let guys come in untouched on screen passes. The Cards do though and that's why the screens usually don't work.

The Cards had a perfect pass pattern called and didn't block it properly. If Bridges slows Dunlap even a little its a TD.

. This. It is just plain stupid to allow the de an easy shot at the qb.

 

[Cardiac]

Scheme or execution....

Isn't the QB in tandem with the centre responsible for calling the pre-play adjustments?

(I doubt that when our tackles block inside, allowing an outside rusher free access that they do it on a whim. They are doing it based on the play call and the adjustments barked out by both the centre and QB.)

First of all it's great to see a post from you, where ya been!

I don't know to what extent the QB and center share the blocking schemes, I expect it's different for some teams then others. Most QB's identify the Mike LBer and then line calls are made from there.

What I do know is for whatever reason there are too many free rushers coming at the QB while another D player is doubled.

 

[kerouac9]

Chopper has laid down his bike too many times if he looks at Saints games or Giants games and sees free rushers hitting Brees or Manning as frequently as defenses get to our guys.

That's my biggest clue that Whis has adopted the Martz offense: no OC outside or Martz hangs his QBs out to dry as often as Whis does.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

First of all it's great to see a post from you, where ya been!

I don't know to what extent the QB and center share the blocking schemes, I expect it's different for some teams then others. Most QB's identify the Mike LBer and then line calls are made from there.

What I do know is for whatever reason there are too many free rushers coming at the QB while another D player is doubled.

Three months of work at the OECD in Paris and now off to Cancun until the spring.

 

[Chopper0080]

You weren't blaming the coaches for poor offensive performances when Kolb, Derek Anderson, or Max Hall were the starters, either.

Exactly what would it take for you to start putting some onus on the coaching staff? Peyton Manning struggling in the first quarter here?

I blame the staff for sticking their heads in the sand and not realizing that the QBs on their roster can't operate the same offense Kurt Warner did. Maybe either Kolb or Skleton will eventually get to that level, but in the meantime I blame our coaches for asking players to do things that they just can't do at this point.

The scheme is good, Kurt Warner proved that. The coaches get the blame for not adjusting their offensive scheme to allow the QBs on the roster over the past 2 seasons to be successful. It is like giving my grandma keys to a stock car and expecting her to drive it like Jimmy Johnson.

 

[Chopper0080]

Chopper has laid down his bike too many times if he looks at Saints games or Giants games and sees free rushers hitting Brees or Manning as frequently as defenses get to our guys.

That's my biggest clue that Whis has adopted the Martz offense: no OC outside or Martz hangs his QBs out to dry as often as Whis does.

I remember watching Eli Manning scrambling back in the pocket and launching passes off his back foot against the Cowboys. Those passes led to several big plays which is why you leave a blitzer free. Brees gets rid of the ball so quickly that he normally doesn't take many shots, but the Saints also let blitzers run free which allows them to send a maximum amount of receivers into the secondary. The Saints run a pretty similar offense to what we do (the exception being their screen game and use of the TE) but the difference is in who is running their offense and what he allows them to do. If you watch our playoff footage in 2008 and the Saints games, they are very similar in scheme and concepts.

 

[Cardiac]

Three months of work at the OECD in Paris and now off to Cancun until the spring.

Paris and Cancun don't have the internet.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Paris and Cancun don't have the internet.

Yes, but as you may appreciate there are many delights to savour "à Paris et au Mexique".

(Did "lurk" from time to time...)