Thoughts on the draft as a whole

[Chopper0080]

I hate to do this, but can we justify this with facts that don't include Peyton Manning, Ben Roethlisberger, and Andrew Luck? Three generational talents, one of which had a much better season once Arians left and he returned to a more traditional offense.

I don't want to quibble, but it took Carson Palmer 9 months to "master" this offense. Remember how Kevin Kolb spent 4 years learning under a QB whisperer?

When it comes to these matters, I put my confidence in those who are in the media so it is definitely an indirect and questionable source. Personally, I have a bunch of respect for George Whitfield who does pre-draft prep work for a bunch of QB prospects. He worked with Logan Thomas to help get him ready. One of the selling points for Arians and Moore was the progress Thomas made after just a short period of time with Whitfield. More than trusting in Arians to turn crap into pudding, I trust Arians to be able to know what skills can be tweeked and which can't. I trust him to know what works in his system. Unlike Whis, Arians comes across with a clear and defined idea of what he needs out of his QB. I trust Trent Dilfer in his ability to break down fundamentals of players and identify what can be tweeked to improve production.

I can't say that Arians and Moore are going to be able to turn the Ryan Lindley's or the Drew Stanton's of the football world around. What I do believe they can do is take a player with physical tools and a desire to improve, and make him into a mechanically solid QB. Whether or not they can take him to read a defense or get a feel for the pocket, I don't know. One thing their track record does show in my opinion is they can communicate effectively with young QBs. That is also very important.

K9, in short, I believe that Arians and Moore can get the most out of QB prospects and there is a bunch of potential in Logan Thomas for them to get.

#

So here is why I think Logan Thomas can work.

1-He is driven. This has been reported by George Whitfield, Trent Dilfer, Mike Mayock, Mel Kiper and Todd McShay. In terms of Logan Thomas's work eithic and attitude, all the reports have been very positive.

2-He has physical skills. He is athletic, he has a strong arm and he is big/durable. He also doesn't seem to panic under pressure.

3-Arians and Tom Moore are invested in him, he is under very little pressure to produce right away (helps with re-training muscle memory) and Arians system fits what Logan Thomas does well.

So of all the reasons Thomas may not work out, these are why I think it could.

Dilfer and Jimbo Fisher were also interesting when they were describing Logan Thomas' shortcomings. They essentially said that he wasn't tieing his feet to his eyes, he wasn't dropping back in rhythm, and he moved on his heels rather than his toes. They agreed these were correctable issues with time and effort.

 

[john h]

So first off, I think that whoever said that the Cardinals missed out on some guys because they were taken right before they were going to take them, was right on. I believe Keim will look back at this draft and see where a little more aggression would have probably netted them a bit better haul. Keim will learn that while it is nice to stockpile picks, the draft is truely about drafting players. A 4th round pick is nice, but if you can get a player you want by moving up a couple spots, sometimes it is worth it.

Secondly, this draft makes me believe Keim and Arians have a very clear understanding of each other. This draft was totally tailored to what Arians wants in players. Whether we like it or not, Keim drafting players that fit Arians' system is nothing other than a good thing.

We also drafted for our division. Strength, speed and overall athletes is what we drafted. In the toughest division in football, we drafted tough players.

1-Deone Bucannon - S
*Very physical playmaker who has great timed speed. I believe his coverage issues are less athletic and more technique related in nature. This is one of the few S in this class that can take down Lynch, Gore and Stacy.

2-Troy Niklas - TE
*Very physical blocker who needs work in the passing game. Not a vertical threat but a legitimate blocker who will allow us to go more 3 WR sets and will be a red zone mismatch. Vs the very physical 49er and Rams fronts, Niklas will give us a big help.

3-Kareem Martin - OLB/DE
*Sounds like the Cards want him to play OLB which makes me like the pick less. What he does offer is a huge physical presence on the edge. I wish we added a edge player who has some quickness and burst, but we just didn't.

3-John Brown - WR
*A perfect scheme fit who adds the big play ability this offense lacks. Almost exact same size as TY Hilton and very similar skill set. Arians is going to feature him and I believe Brown will make Ted Ginn expendable after this year.

4-Logan Thomas - QB
*So, I didn't like going QB in this draft, much less in the 4th round. That being said, I'm happy the guy we drafted was Logan Thomas. If I want to draft a late round QB who I'm going to develop, I want a QB who has the tools to be special and the work ethic to want to develop. Thomas has both of these. He is a big, physical QB who can survive in the West and has enough athleticism to avoid a rush. I don't know if his issues are correctable, but I think if anyone can fix it, it is our staff.

5-Ed Stinson - DE
*Physical DE who is strong at point of attack and has a little rush ability. I am good with it. He knows how to work coming out of Alabama, and played in the most physical division in college football. Maybe he is only a sub player, but that isn't terrible.

6-some guy
*I have no idea about this prospect though he does offer special teams ability. IMO, there are worse things than drafting the Justin Bethel's of the draft in the later rounds.


All in all, I personally wanted more out of this draft but I still feel the Cards did a decent job. I believe the Cards missed the boat on the dynamic edge rushers and on a decent CB class. However, the Cards did add legitimate starting threats at S and TE which we haven't had in years (in the case of TE, in recent history). They also added a legitimate burner which we have had in recent memory either. Martin and Thomas are both really big development players who have significant physical skills but both have not lived up to their potential. Stinson is a rotational player who is limited but should stick on the roster.

That is all I have for now. I am still disappointed that Keim has yet to show he can add a legitimate edge rusher and we will see on the QB. Until he does, I will have my reservations about the future of our team. There is just only so far a team can go without being able to add a premier QB or a legitimate edge rush.

I give us a "C". If our QB works out then a "B". Nothing to really get me excited but then I do not know much about these guys. USA Today rating not very good. Kipper gives us a B.

 

[Finito]

Kipper and McShay are really loving that John Brown pick. There giving us some love but if you listen to this board we might as well fire everyone in the front office

 

[GimmedaBall]

Cards mgmt. earned some credibility with the 10-6 record last year in our tough Division. At the start of the year, I wouild have been happy at 8-8 and even thought that was a stretch. So the Cards get the benefit of the doubt from me in regards to this draft. If we split with our Division opponents and take care of the other teams, we got a chance at the playoffs.

I looked at the Rams fan forum---even with the players they brought in, some of the Ram fans are complaining. A franchise LT and the final piece for a dominant DL---yeah, they got plenty to complain about. LOL.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Well, Curtis Painter and Byron Leftwich really agree with you.



Yes, Steve Jobs inherited the iPhone, and had nothing to do with it. It landed right in his lap just like Peyton Manning and Andrew Luck landed in the lap of Arians and Moore.

And remember how sales of the iPhone increased more than 10% after Steve Jobs died? That's just like Andrew Luck's completion percentage once Bruce Arians came here.

You're really reaching for a counter-argument if you have to go this far afield.

Seems like that could just be something that typically happens for good QBs going from the 1st to 2nd year. I mean look at Peyton he went from 56% in his rookie season to 62% in his 2nd season and both years were with BA. That is very similar to the jump from 54% to 60% that Luck made this year.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Kipper and McShay are really loving that John Brown pick. There giving us some love but if you listen to this board we might as well fire everyone in the front office

The funniest thing about that is that some of the people that hate this draft are guys that are doing it because someone being picked too early based on one of the draft boards of guys like Kiper, McShay and Mayock. Yet all those guys like our draft.

 

[Chopper0080]

I give us a "C". If our QB works out then a "B". Nothing to really get me excited but then I do not know much about these guys. USA Today rating not very good. Kipper gives us a B.

If the QB works out it gets an A+ because we were able to find a franchise QB in the 4th round of a draft. I believe that is what some people are missing. Logan Thomas has such great physical tools that if the pick works out, it establishes the Cardinals as a contending team for 10 years. Logan Thomas is our Russel Wilson, Tom Brady, Colin Kaepernick if he pans out. His ceiling, whether you believe he can hit it or not, is Hall of Fame potential.

 

[Goldfield]

If the QB works out it gets an A+ because we were able to find a franchise QB in the 4th round of a draft. I believe that is what some people are missing. Logan Thomas has such great physical tools that if the pick works out, it establishes the Cardinals as a contending team for 10 years. Logan Thomas is our Russel Wilson, Tom Brady, Colin Kaepernick if he pans out. His ceiling, whether you believe he can hit it or not, is Hall of Fame potential.

This is how I feel. Don't know if the light bulb will ever go on. But if it does look out NFL. Just his potential is very exciting.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

If the QB works out it gets an A+ because we were able to find a franchise QB in the 4th round of a draft. I believe that is what some people are missing. Logan Thomas has such great physical tools that if the pick works out, it establishes the Cardinals as a contending team for 10 years. Logan Thomas is our Russel Wilson, Tom Brady, Colin Kaepernick if he pans out. His ceiling, whether you believe he can hit it or not, is Hall of Fame potential.

You're right about Thomas and the physical tools, it's the mental part of the game that is the concern. I have serious doubts because, as Keim said, you can't make dumb players smart. The mental part of the game is a huge reason for the success of Brady and Wilson.

 

[oaken1]

QB's are hit and miss often.....the more I see of this kid the more I like though....he is just so damned raw...kid really needs to work his ass off.....

but there is hope...

anyone Know why Kurt Warner went undrafted?....how about Tony Romo?

 

[Southpaw]

When it comes to these matters, I put my confidence in those who are in the media so it is definitely an indirect and questionable source. Personally, I have a bunch of respect for George Whitfield who does pre-draft prep work for a bunch of QB prospects. He worked with Logan Thomas to help get him ready. One of the selling points for Arians and Moore was the progress Thomas made after just a short period of time with Whitfield. More than trusting in Arians to turn crap into pudding, I trust Arians to be able to know what skills can be tweeked and which can't. I trust him to know what works in his system. Unlike Whis, Arians comes across with a clear and defined idea of what he needs out of his QB. I trust Trent Dilfer in his ability to break down fundamentals of players and identify what can be tweeked to improve production.

I can't say that Arians and Moore are going to be able to turn the Ryan Lindley's or the Drew Stanton's of the football world around. What I do believe they can do is take a player with physical tools and a desire to improve, and make him into a mechanically solid QB. Whether or not they can take him to read a defense or get a feel for the pocket, I don't know. One thing their track record does show in my opinion is they can communicate effectively with young QBs. That is also very important.

K9, in short, I believe that Arians and Moore can get the most out of QB prospects and there is a bunch of potential in Logan Thomas for them to get.

#

So here is why I think Logan Thomas can work.

1-He is driven. This has been reported by George Whitfield, Trent Dilfer, Mike Mayock, Mel Kiper and Todd McShay. In terms of Logan Thomas's work eithic and attitude, all the reports have been very positive.

2-He has physical skills. He is athletic, he has a strong arm and he is big/durable. He also doesn't seem to panic under pressure.

3-Arians and Tom Moore are invested in him, he is under very little pressure to produce right away (helps with re-training muscle memory) and Arians system fits what Logan Thomas does well.

So of all the reasons Thomas may not work out, these are why I think it could.

Dilfer and Jimbo Fisher were also interesting when they were describing Logan Thomas' shortcomings. They essentially said that he wasn't tieing his feet to his eyes, he wasn't dropping back in rhythm, and he moved on his heels rather than his toes. They agreed these were correctable issues with time and effort.

Lots of trust there aka wishing and hoping.

You said;
" He also doesn't seem to panic under pressure."

Ummmm..... that is exactly what he has done for 3 years.

You must be registered for see images attach

BTW George Whitfield, imo, makes his living tutoring QBs. I can't imagine he ever says anything negative about his pupils. That would be suicidal for his enterprise.

 

[Chopper0080]

Lots of trust there aka wishing and hoping.

You said;
" He also doesn't seem to panic under pressure."

Ummmm..... that is exactly what he has done for 3 years.

You must be registered for see images attach

BTW George Whitfield, imo, makes his living tutoring QBs. I can't imagine he ever says anything negative about his pupils. That would be suicidal for his enterprise.

A couple points here.

There is a difference between making bad decisions under pressure and panicking. Thomas looks to make plays when he is pressured while QBs who panic go into a shell. There is a significant difference between the two IMO. Thomas's attempts to make plays just seem to result in more bad plays than good ones though. He is the opposite of Manziel in that regard. Manziel throws up a backfooted floater and it is caught, Thomas does and it is picked.

Regarding Whitfield, I understand he is not going to speak negatively about his QBs. That is why I didn't reference any comments made by Whitfield other than Whitfield saying Thomas is driven which was reiterated by others as well. What I referenced specifically regarding Whitfield is the coach's (Arians and Moore) impression of the strides Thomas made under Whitfield. If you feel Logan Thomas's issues are mechanical in nature and he makes tremendous strides under a tutor like Whitfield, who makes a living in refining fundamentals, you should be encouraged about his potential to develop.

 

[ajcardfan]

How did you manage to see several VT games? I'd also like to ask how anyone who doesn't attend Washington State games in person saw several of the Cougars games. Its not like those teams are on TV in other parts of the country every week are they?

Just curious.

Not every week, but I bet I saw them play 4 to 6 times every year. I watch way more college football than pro. Starting Thursday through Saturday I catch parts of almost every game on the tube.

The pro game, I'm only highly interested in the Cardinals, and am somewhat interested in games of our division rivals.

 

[Chopper0080]

You're right about Thomas and the physical tools, it's the mental part of the game that is the concern. I have serious doubts because, as Keim said, you can't make dumb players smart. The mental part of the game is a huge reason for the success of Brady and Wilson.

So, one comment and then I am going to project a bit from my own personal experience here.

1-I don't believe Logan Thomas is dumb or that he lacks football understanding. I'm not going to expand on why because it is just my own interpretation.

2-From my high school coaching experience, athletic QBs get short changed in terms of development at lower levels. In high school and in college, athletic QBs are, generally, not asked to make reads or work through progressions. For the majority of their early football careers they encouraged to look at the 1st and then 2nd option, after which they are expected to make a play. Many times this leads to QBs being late in their reads, they stare down WRs and they develop poor habits but, because they ultimately get the job done, it goes overlooked. It sucks, but the facts are that the more athletic of a QB you are, the less refined of a passer you can be and still be successful. The less athletic you are, the better you have be in terms of fundamentals because that is the only way you are going to succeed.

I know it is pure speculation on my part, but I am going to say that I believe Logan Thomas has never had a coach who has spent the time breaking down his fundamentals. He has never had a coach who has forced him to regress in overall production to force him to become a more refined QB. It didn't happen in High School and he sure didn't receive a consistent message in college when he was playing for several different OCs and for a defensive minded head coach.

Now, none of this is to say that Logan Thomas is going to be the savior of the franchise. He is too raw to tell right now. But, some of you act like these QBs all get top notch coaching as they progress up the ranks and that is just not true. How can he not develop after 4 years as a college QB? Pretty easy, no one forced him too because they didn't want to risk short term regression for long term gain.

 

[oaken1]

So, one comment and then I am going to project a bit from my own personal experience here.

1-I don't believe Logan Thomas is dumb or that he lacks football understanding. I'm not going to expand on why because it is just my own interpretation.

2-From my high school coaching experience, athletic QBs get short changed in terms of development at lower levels. In high school and in college, athletic QBs are, generally, not asked to make reads or work through progressions. For the majority of their early football careers they encouraged to look at the 1st and then 2nd option, after which they are expected to make a play. Many times this leads to QBs being late in their reads, they stare down WRs and they develop poor habits but, because they ultimately get the job done, it goes overlooked. It sucks, but the facts are that the more athletic of a QB you are, the less refined of a passer you can be and still be successful. The less athletic you are, the better you have be in terms of fundamentals because that is the only way you are going to succeed.

I know it is pure speculation on my part, but I am going to say that I believe Logan Thomas has never had a coach who has spent the time breaking down his fundamentals. He has never had a coach who has forced him to regress in overall production to force him to become a more refined QB. It didn't happen in High School and he sure didn't receive a consistent message in college when he was playing for several different OCs and for a defensive minded head coach.

Now, none of this is to say that Logan Thomas is going to be the savior of the franchise. He is too raw to tell right now. But, some of you act like these QBs all get top notch coaching as they progress up the ranks and that is just not true. How can he not develop after 4 years as a college QB? Pretty easy, no one forced him too because they didn't want to risk short term regression for long term gain.

I was making the same point in a different thread...athletic QB's generally are not coached up as QB's but encouraged to make it happen with their physical abilities.....then you consider he played for a smaller school, where high end coaching usually is not available...and it is easy to see why this kid is still so raw and has a few bad habits.

 

[Cheesebeef]

i'm warming up to the Logan pick more and more.

 

[GuernseyCard]

i'm warming up to the Logan pick more and more.

The more I read, me too.

We'll see when they open the box in a year or two.

 

[Cheesebeef]

The more I read, me too.

We'll see when they open the box in a year or two.

bottom line for me is the kid is a risk...but with the QBs left in the draft at that point, I'd rather go big upside then take any of the other guys. did we take him too early? that's another question entirely and a fair one to debate because the way draftniks talked about him coming into the draft, we could have gotten better value in the fourth and still picked him up later, but like I said, that's another debate entirely and one that probably has merit.

 

[GuernseyCard]

bottom line for me is the kid is a risk...but with the QBs left in the draft at that point, I'd rather go big upside then take any of the other guys. did we take him too early? that's another question entirely and a fair one to debate because the way draftniks talked about him coming into the draft, we could have gotten better value in the fourth and still picked him up later, but like I said, that's another debate entirely and one that probably has merit.

But, Arians said (for what it is worth) that there were two teams ready to pick him.

 

[Cheesebeef]

But, Arians said (for what it is worth) that there were two teams ready to pick him.

I don't know how much stock I put into that, especially when a lot of people were saying he was taken too early. I'm glad they got their man, but the above could easily be CYA. It's not like Arians has never said anything that wasn't PR based.

 

[Duckjake]

Not every week, but I bet I saw them play 4 to 6 times every year. I watch way more college football than pro. Starting Thursday through Saturday I catch parts of almost every game on the tube.

The pro game, I'm only highly interested in the Cardinals, and am somewhat interested in games of our division rivals.

Since there is only time to watch 4 full games on Saturday do you watch parts of several games? Also I don't remember too many VT or Wash State games being televised here in Austin, and the Thursday games usually do not involve BCS conference teams. So do you buy, what is it, ESPN college football package? Of course I'm the opposite of you I like NFL football far more than college football so I'm not really looking for out of market college games.

 

[CardLogic]

You're right about Thomas and the physical tools, it's the mental part of the game that is the concern. I have serious doubts because, as Keim said, you can't make dumb players smart. The mental part of the game is a huge reason for the success of Brady and Wilson.

So, one comment and then I am going to project a bit from my own personal experience here.

1-I don't believe Logan Thomas is dumb or that he lacks football understanding. I'm not going to expand on why because it is just my own interpretation.

FWIW . . .

The other day on either 620 or 910 AM there was some discussion related to Logan Thomas and the Cardinals. I wasn't really listening very intently, so I don't recall which program or who was speaking but . . . the relevant comment was that one of the positives with Logan Thomas is his football knowledge and understanding. That talking schemes etc. with Thomas, that he came across as being very astute.

Sorry, I can't recall the conversation more clearly, as my attention was not focused upon it; but I did hear something of that sort.

 

[oaken1]

Since there is only time to watch 4 full games on Saturday do you watch parts of several games? Also I don't remember too many VT or Wash State games being televised here in Austin, and the Thursday games usually do not involve BCS conference teams. So do you buy, what is it, ESPN college football package? Of course I'm the opposite of you I like NFL football far more than college football so I'm not really looking for out of market college games.

if you have Dish network the Pac 12 channel is automatic...adding the SEC channel this summer too........two good channels to have if you want to get a look at upcoming draft prospects.

 

[Southpaw]

A couple points here.

There is a difference between making bad decisions under pressure and panicking. Thomas looks to make plays when he is pressured while QBs who panic go into a shell. There is a significant difference between the two IMO. Thomas's attempts to make plays just seem to result in more bad plays than good ones though. He is the opposite of Manziel in that regard. Manziel throws up a backfooted floater and it is caught, Thomas does and it is picked.

Semantics?

 

[THESMEL]

sometime one seems to start to believe their own crap. Now I don't agree with all the talking heads, nor do I believe they are that far off every pick.

I will not stop buying tickets and merchandise - As a 5th generation Arizonian Cards are kind of stuck with me, and me with them. So, I am shouting at the wind again.

The opposite of love is not hate- it is indifference! To not give a crap either way about whatever. That is where BASK are leading me-