Thoughts on Warner

[moklerman]

Even I'm starting to get concerned about Warner now. I wasn't sure if he was going to look too good the first few games. Coming off of hip surgery, not a lot of playing time for all the starters together in the preseason, Whis calling plays, Super Bowl hangover, 38+ years old, job security, etc. All of the things everyone else was worrying about.

The Jacksonville game was cause for optimism but the Indy game was not. Coming out of the bye he had two good games but now has had two bad games. The things that concern me have been prevalent in the good games though and I don't know if it's Warner, Whis or just a combination of everything.

First of all, I think Warner is clearly frustrated and on his way to an ulcer. Many have pointed to his body language as some kind of indicator and I don't disagree. But I think a lot of what we're seeing on Warner's face is him internalizing his frustration with...? The o-line is my guess. An example from the Carolina game was the pass to Morey for 26 yards toward the end of the game. Warner was sprinting down the field and directing everyone and looked like the rest of the bad day had been washed away. He had a little fire. But the play was called back because of holding on the o-line.

On a day of many proverbial knockdowns, that was his stay down moment. And that is what I have seen much of from Warner this year. Every time something bad happens he comes to the sideline not showing much emotion but it just seems like his guts are being ripped out like he's holding it in.

A different type of moment that I wanted to point to, which I think is part of the overall problem--I can't remember the opponent now but the play was talked about as one that they (Whis and Warner) had what they wanted down the right sideline--Fitz with one-on-one coverage I think, but Warner had to throw it early because of the protection breaking down. Rather than showing no emotion though, as one of his lineman tried to help him up, Warner shoved his hands away in frustration. I don't recall anyone talking much about this play but it was a very "uh, oh" moment as far as I was concerned.

I really have to question the relationship Warner and the o-line have at this point. The last couple of years he's tried yelling at them or getting after them but this year he just looks like he's at a loss.

Unfortunately, the o-line isn't the only problem. It's a major one--as it has been for years, but the play calling has been very poor IMO. I won't bother to try and break down what they've been doing but it clearly isn't working. I can understand and support being a pass first team but the passing game that was here the last couple of years is either gone or neutered. Warner's health/arm have to be considered as a possible culprit. I haven't seen it too often on the tv but many who have gone to the games have reported that he is either not seeing the field well or intentionally shying away from deep passes that seem to be open.

The other option is the play calling. Whis keeps saying that Warner is making the right reads and is doing what is asked of him but that is probably Whis protecting him to some extent. But I still think the play calling is part of the problem because of the total lack of trick plays that we've seen the last couple of years. The offense has turned into a dink-and-dunk, never take any chances, it's gonna take 10-12 plays-by design(!) to get to the end zone. With this o-line, the WR injuries, Warner's problems, etc., I think Whis is making a mistake in his approach.

Speaking of the approach, why is it that everyone can see that it's not working except the Cardinals? Sure, when the stars align and everything goes right there is a game like Jacksonville but this team seems to have no real approach for teams with a good DE. I mean, SF really slowed down Indy and they run what the Cardinals run with better blocking, more speed and more precision. And Indy won that game with a play that Haley would have called but Whis/Warner never will...a RB option.

This offense has no speed, no creativity and Warner is clearly not comfortable in it. Does he have too much input? Not enough? I don't know but it's not working and it's getting worse. Which is frustrating for me because I really thought they were going to wise up and protect Warner--from the defense and from himself--this year.

The empty backfield, 4-5 WR sets are fine for special situations but in general this offense needs to be helping out the o-line and protecting Warner. Which leads us to Leinart. If they are going to go to that type of offense--heck, if they are going to keep running this current offense, it's probably time to put Leinart in there. They "can't" run the offense that Warner is suited for and excels at. They just can't. This o-line is the exact same one that's been here since 2005-different players and different coaches, but it's still the "same" and they just don't have the tackles to do what needs to be done.

I see Warner reverting to his Giants days in many ways. He seems to be so focused on being perfect and not making any mistakes that he isn't playing with swagger. Ironically, it's just making him less productive. I don't know the progression tree that Whis uses but it's either deep to shallow or shallow to deep. If it's shallow to deep and the o-line can't provide much pass protection, what's the point of having a gunslinger?

 

[dogpoo32]

I must say I'm impressed. Fair critique of your BFF and the rest of the team. I agree with pretty much all of it.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Pretty solid commentary Mokler...

I would add the following:

Kurt is also very, very frustrated as I have no doubt that he fully expected this season to be even better than 2008. That the offense, with another year of playing together for the o-line, Fitz and Breaston continuing to improve. Q simply being Q. And the addition of Beanie Wells, would be ahead of where they were in 2008.
Yet, due to so many reasons, the offense has slipped beyond anyone's worst nightmare.
I believe the o-line is certainly a huge factor, but clearly there are other issues, such as:

- Haley being gone...
- Whiz as the OC (I think this one is HUGE and bigger than anyone is willing to let on). I just don't believe Kurt is comfy with Whiz as an OC. Loves him as a Head Coach, but NOT as an OC.
- Boldin and Breaston being hurt... This is also a gigantic issue that has repercussions throughout the entire offense. In short, the plays that were once normally available to Kurt just aren't there, and he is growing more and more pissed about it...
- Still no meaningful running game. You would think that with our passing game struggling as much as it is, that we would find some way to create even the slightest threat in the running attack. Beanie has shown flashes, but still Whiz refuses to give him a true, legit shot... This is very, very frustrating for us fans... I have to believe it's driving Kurt nuts...
- The overall inconsistency of the entire team... Kurt really wanted to win a Championship here in AZ. Probably more than he wanted to win in St Louis! I believe he came into '09 fully expecting to be in position to be playing for the Lombardi Trophy once again. Yet, the entire team has been a let-down. It's not just the offense and the Panther game this past Sunday was a vivid example of this, where our defense and special teams coverage were flat-out PATHETIC! They simply chose NOT to show up. Kurt knows as well as anyone that to win a Championship, you can't have those type of mental breakdowns... you just can't.

I actually believe this team is hanging very loosely to a small thread... I believe this season is close to taking a very ugly, nasty turn. This Sunday in Chicago can either put the team back on track where they can show they are in this for the long haul and will compete come the end of the season, or, should they travel to Chicago and get blown out - which is very possible, I honestly don't believe the team will recover. They went thru that too many times last season. I just don't believe this team is mentally tough enough to over come more, pathetic no-shows... It seems to me that while the 9ers are not as talented as are the Cards, they are significantly tougher.

December 14th should be circled on everyone's calendar! We will be coming off a road game in TN (which I have serious concerns about), and a home game against the Vikes (uh - do we even need to discuss this one...). December 14th, Monday Night in SF will be a huge game. It will come down to who is the tougher team. Who wants it more. Right now, my vote goes to the 9ers... And I hope I'm dead wrong...

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Mokler I commend you for your fair write up.

But the schizophrenia on this board is borderline crazy. 82 - The Cardinals are hanging by a thread at this point? C'mon now. We just had two of the best games in regular season team history and because we came out unprepared and got hit in the mouth by a motivated/talented team this past Sunday we are done? LOL talk about what have you done for me lately.

Here is the point and why I am writing this in this thread. What the team has shown the previous three weeks is that WE DON'T NEED KURT WARNER GOING OFF to win anymore. In fact with the defense playing the way it was in the second half and our overall running game Sunday we would have won that game with anyone but Kurt Warner playing IMO. His turnovers just killed us.

So whats my point? Rather then forcing the ball so much and turning over the ball when things arent there, Warner needs to quit pouting, quit worry about whats not working, quit worrying about his damn numbers and having a three ring circus passing attack and MANAGE THE GAME. And then, and only then, will the down field passing open up.

I know this sounds crazy after last weeks game but we have the defense and running game at this point where we don't have to wing it 70% of the time and we will still win the division.

We need to balance out this team a little bit because this isn't last year anymore. The funny thing is we are probably BETTER then last year in that we don't need to rely on the passing game so damn much to win games.

Fixing the offense is important but in the mean time lets win some games. And if Kurt doesn't turn into Jake Delhomme and doesn't turnover the ball we can do just that - even without the offense being Top 10 in passing.

Don't believe me? Look at our record. And we have yet to go off passing the ball. Which shows me the team is making the transition to complete team. And if not for even just HALF of those turnovers I bet we are 5-2.

Now hopefully Kurt can play within the team concept and not only be successful if we are throw-throw-throw mode all the time.

And if he can't.

It's time to go to Matt.

 

[Russ Smith]

Warning, lengthy war and peace comments below.



I agree with some but I think some of what you mention is a consequence of circumstance not "bad play calling." the lack of trick plays, Whiz would never call the halfback option that the Colts did, right he'd let Rolle throw it instead. That play was a perfect call and it would have worked but Rolle held it too long, that created a hold and negated the big play that would have happened if Fitz didn't drop it. And a lot of people here complained about that play call as an example of bad playcalling by Whiz.

We can't run a lot of reverses because we have no speed, the 2 guys best equipped to run a reverse are Breaston and Q. Breaston has a knee problem so he's not as fast now, and Q, a terrific runner, is playing with a bad ankle. We are basically looking at running reverses with Larry or Urban.

I agree about the 4 WR stuff I've been saying it all year, that's what Kurt wants to do, but we have a tough time protecting him with it. That said, if you look at his split stats the thing that jumps out immediately is the best formation is 2 wr. ESPN's stats aren't current doesn't have Sunday's loss, but Warner's passer rating, comp % and YPA are all highest in 2 Wr sets. Some but not all of that is the 2 TE set I keep clamoring for. By far his highest passer rating is with 2 TE's, the YPA number drops but the % goes up and we protect him better.



So we have a QB who has been moving the ball better in one half than the other, but turning it over a lot more. The point being when Kurt is most effective moving the ball, he's also most likely to turn it over. That's why I disagree with all the we need to throw the ball downfield more stuff. We simply don't have the personnel to do that right now, when we try the result has been more turnovers.

IMHO what we should be doing is trying to figure out why we haven't run better from the 2 TE set. Beanie's averaging only 2.7 YPC , TH 2.8. The real problem is Kurt's favorite formation to pass from are the most risky in terms of turnovers and protection schemes. And the formation that Kurt is by far the safest in, we've struggled running the ball from. I'm going to guess the reason why, we've only thrown 24 times from the 2 TE set all year, we run the ball from that set about 65% of the time. On a team like the Cards that passes as often as we do, 65% runs from one formation is a dead giveaway. When we go to the 2 TE set, we're telegraphing the defense we're going to run.

If we used the formation more, and mixed up the run/pass ratio, we might get the best of both worlds. We might be able to run better because we're not tipping it as much.

Why don't we do it? My guess is because Kurt doesn't really use his TE's, he much prefers to throw to the Wr's or the RB, not the TE. Kurt likes to keep the TE for a "surprise" like the dump to Becht that he bobbled and then caught, or the TD pass to Patrick who was essentially uncovered because they didn't believe we'd throw to him. If we played that formation more, threw more out of it, and used the TE, it would allow us to rest Breaston and Q so they can heal up, and it would take away the I have to make a big play mentality that Kurt still has which just isn't working this year.

 

[MrYeahBut]

Mokler, your best write up by far. I'm not really totally a Warner guy, but I, like many others thought he gives us the best chance with the way the team is currently set up to play.

I don't know what it is either, but as you say, the body language just screams something is not right. Its not just the Carolina game. We all saw a couple of instances in the gints game where KW didn't even see Stevie who was open and instead forced the ball elsewhere.

Could it be a contributing factor that he is just not happy with what seems to be a slow conversion to a more balanced offense? I wonder about this as he had Faulk in StL and it was obvious how big a part he played in their offense.

I'm not happy either with what I see as 'pouty face Kurt' everytime he comes off the field

 

[DemsMyBoys]

Good Words Molker, if I may add my two cents:

I think he misses Haley. He is one of those guys who needs to have someone on his case both at practice and during the game. He needs someone to challenge him on the way he's playing and jump all over him if he's screwing up. My theory is some people are managers and some people need managers. Needing a manager is not a bad thing it's just part of the way your brain works. Kurt needs a manager. (At home, I'm pretty sure Brenda is the manager.)

I didn't realize how badly we were going to miss Haley until I saw an NFL Films feature on Fitz a couple of weeks ago. It centered on his relationship with his late mother. Remember the moment in the Super Bowl after Fitz made the could-have-been-game-winning touchdown? Haley grabbed him on the sidelines and started yelling at him. Watching that on TV during the game I'm thinking "Haley is yelling at him for watching himself on the Jumbo Tron." (What do I know?) Turns out Haley was saying to him, "Talk to your Mother! Talk to your Mom!!" Whiz walks over towards Larry and Haley grabs Whiz and said "Leave him alone! I told him to talk to his Mom, just leave him alone!" Cut to Larry on the bench with his head down in prayer. Yeah... He's talking to his Mom.

Haley KNEW Larry and knew what made him tick. Haley KNEW Kurt and knew how to tick him off enough to make him play better. Not everyone has that ability to see inside his player's brains and hearts and use it to make them better. Haley had it and I think Kurt needs it.

(And if there is someone out there who is smarter than me and knows how to post videos, the NFL Films segment on Larry is on Youtube. It's called "It's Better to Receive than to Give" and is in two parts. That moment with Larry and Haley just about made me cry.)

 

[slanidrac16]

Warner had 6 turnovers, 2 of which were fatal. The rest were either not on him or garbage turnovers.
You can't blame Warner when hit hits a WR in the chest and he coughs the ball up. As far as tipped balls, it happens to all of them and it comes so close to happening 10 times a game. That's just tough luck.

The Peppers int falls on him as does the fumble. My biggest gripe this whole season is we have failed to push the envelope with Fitz. We've gone deep to him a few times, but it should be a given at least 4 time a game. On top of that, when we have gone to him , it's not been the classic lob to him where he can outjump the db. Instead balls have been overthrown with little trajectory.

I just don't get it.

Why is it when we are good, we are really good, but when we are bad, we are really bad? This team has enough talent to win without playing their best game , but there are not many teams out there that can win when they are having a bad game. We all knew we weren't going to go 16-0. The hard thing to handle is the ups and the downs.

 

[Doug]

I think EVERYONE is overthinking the WHOLE problem with the team.Kurt does'nt have an offensive line he can trust PERIOD.He slapped Latui's hand away in a game not to long ago also,when he offered to help him up.

We are'nt helping the OT's with chipping that when we have done it it works.Why not more often?

Plus we have NO SPEED at wide reciever on this team PERIOD.Did anyone see the game last night.The levels of speed make us look like a team of turtles.

We need to let Warner be the guy he's been for OVER the 10 years of NFL and even go back to Arena league where you have to have seperation.The saints and falcons both had wr's that can move like the wind.I think Warner throwing the ball to Sean Morey was almost a thankyou call.He finally had a guy with a lil' speed running a route.He made a completion.

Breaston may have BEEN fast but he does'nt practice and he's missed every practice we've had this season.EVERYONE!!!! All have been very limited as you can see on the CARDINALS website where it says just what I'm saying.

I don't think Breaston practices much and expects to run his route tree on Sunday and is'nt near where he should be when he should be and Warner is just tired of it.

The two guys need to quit being used as decoys because its not helping Fitzgerald who also has had BAD HANDS this year and for Warner to just throw it up to him this year would be insanity between double coverage.

I know Warner misses Haley.That goes without saying.We don't run half of the stuff that was successfull last season for some dumb reason.I just can't grasp what Whiz is thinking.We can afford one mistake or penalty that will stop a 10 play drive or we fall behind.Warner knows that.Its a ton of pressure especially at home.If anyone has'nt noticed.

Although those have been the 3 toughest games we've played also.Even the texans game we won barely.

Not enough blame has been put on the defensive performance last week either for all the Warner bashing thats going on.

WE HAVE NO SPEED.Warner needs to see his guy very quickly clearing and make his throw.He did'nt lose his arm from practice to the game and not be able to do it anymore.He can throw that ball.

We are'nt as creative by a mile as the saints are and how Coach Peyton and Brees act together is how Warner and Haley acted together.Not coach Whiz.Hey Urban getting hit when he should have caught the ball still results in another Warner turnover and what can he do? Look thrilled?

I don't believe the team is hanging by a thread or that this week is the end of the season by a million miles.

The other message board has totally walked the plank and does'nt care.I expect when someone pays 1500.00 to go to a game and the team does'nt show up for the person and fans to have a right to complain and criticize the team and any player they want to put the blame on.Even if they are wrong and don't have a clue.

I think we are reading WAY TOO MUCH into the way Warner looks frustrated.I would be too with the drop balls he's had by one of the greatest in Fitzgerald and Boldin can't get any yac even if he catches a short ball he normally would get 15 yards on.So sit him down.Lets see how great Doucet is.

When Boldin sits it raises the results we got out of Urban last year.Plus the tight ends.Warner will throw the ball to 9 people if they are all open.Thats all that matters.People have the blueprint on how to shut our last years plays down.We need the creativity of Haley and he's trying to coach another team.Whiz does'nt call a game like Haley and never will.He does'nt think that way and he always had a tough defense in Pittsburgh to help out a qb that was struggling.

Even the SB they won with Whiz calling the plays with a qb that did'nt get along with him and struggled the whole SB,the defense won that game if anyone remembers.Big Ben had a pretty sad SB.

Yes Warner wanted to win the SB this year and thought the addition of Beanie from what he could do in college and moving it to the pro's and subtracting Edge who at least blocked and picked up the blitz,would be better but its not working out that way.

The flip play to Beanie worked against peppers last week for a first down.Thats an old Faulk play Warner ran with the lambs.Misdirection.

Warner would go straight to Haley or vice versa last year as Warner exited the field.Now he just goes to the bench for Miller to come to him.We have no speed and we have people ON THE FIELD that have no place being there.Obviously that isn't of Kurts choice in my personal opinion.

I hope we see Doucet and lots of Sean Morey this week as someone has had TONS of time to get first team reps for 7 weeks for these two hurt guys who I don't blame a bit.It was a great catch by Breaston in N.Y.

I could see a little bit of excitement in Kurt in N.Y. and it followed over to the team.

This week is a totally different matchup and we need containment from Okeafor and Haggans this week as their rb likes to run outside and we normally had success on the inside runners till our defense went to mush last week on tackling.

Our pass offensive coordinator does'nt have the background and the qb's coach in Miller who had a very poor journeyman career in the NFL can't be much help to Kurt as Kurt has done 100 times what Miller ever did.

I've never seen such wringing of hands as I've seen after a team like the Panthers got well on us and have a 3-1 streak going and may actually run on someone else now.We turned the giants into mush.We can't let the panthers ruin our season.Like Shane said Payback is a b.......

DRC hopefully learned another powerfull lesson last week also.That was a rookie move they pulled on him and he bit hook line and sinker.He swallowed the plug even.With no help over the top on Smith.That was 90% of all delhomme had to do all day with the ball but one other first down to Jarret who had'nt been playing.

I'll be so glad when this weeks game is over and no one can see anymore ghosts and everyone comes to play.The drama on the two message boards is more than I thought I would ever see over here especially.But everyone has the right to think what they want.Same with me.I'm sure most will dissagree with me,but I think we're gonna win this week in Chicago and only a few folks will back off the Warner is toast stuff.

I predict Kurt Warner is playing all next season and I have'nt a clue about where Lienart will be.He'll have to come down in his asking money.He can't be paid what he's in line to recieve and I hope he sticks around to take over after next seasons SB run #3.

I don't think Whiz is protecting Kurt while he goes after other players who don't tackle and don't protect.He tells it like it is all of the time and he is'nt gonna sugar coat anything to save Warner's feelings either.He was totally on Kurts side for most of the decisions he made if anyone ever watched both of the pressers.Or read them.

PATIENCE PEOPLE.....

 

[Doug]

Good Words Molker, if I may add my two cents:

I think he misses Haley. He is one of those guys who needs to have someone on his case both at practice and during the game. He needs someone to challenge him on the way he's playing and jump all over him if he's screwing up. My theory is some people are managers and some people need managers. Needing a manager is not a bad thing it's just part of the way your brain works. Kurt needs a manager. (At home, I'm pretty sure Brenda is the manager.)

I didn't realize how badly we were going to miss Haley until I saw an NFL Films feature on Fitz a couple of weeks ago. It centered on his relationship with his late mother. Remember the moment in the Super Bowl after Fitz made the could-have-been-game-winning touchdown? Haley grabbed him on the sidelines and started yelling at him. Watching that on TV during the game I'm thinking "Haley is yelling at him for watching himself on the Jumbo Tron." (What do I know?) Turns out Haley was saying to him, "Talk to your Mother! Talk to your Mom!!" Whiz walks over towards Larry and Haley grabs Whiz and said "Leave him alone! I told him to talk to his Mom, just leave him alone!" Cut to Larry on the bench with his head down in prayer. Yeah... He's talking to his Mom.

Haley KNEW Larry and knew what made him tick. Haley KNEW Kurt and knew how to tick him off enough to make him play better. Not everyone has that ability to see inside his player's brains and hearts and use it to make them better. Haley had it and I think Kurt needs it.

(And if there is someone out there who is smarter than me and knows how to post videos, the NFL Films segment on Larry is on Youtube. It's called "It's Better to Receive than to Give" and is in two parts. That moment with Larry and Haley just about made me cry.)

Love your post.It probably being true also.Brenda the marine does wear the pants.She says what weather is too cold to live in and She's older.I KNOW Kurt misses the genius of haley's play makeup.He could draw one up in the dirt like the old frisco coach and it would work.What a shame he'll flame out as a head coach.He was taught by Parcells to never get too close to your players and he won't allow himself to do that as a head coach and his screaming approach has got to be tiring to both sides of the ball.If you've ever watched a chiefs game.Haley is non-stop screaming at both offense and defensive players as they come off the field.Its crazy.

 

[green machine]

Solid write up, but it seems you point to Warner's problems and say they must be caused by one (or many) outside factors. Sure, that could be, but what isn't mentioned is the possibility that Warner's skills have deteriorated since last year.

 

[MrYeahBut]

I think EVERYONE is overthinking the WHOLE problem with the team.Kurt does'nt have an offensive line he can trust PERIOD.He slapped Latui's hand away in a game not to long ago also,when he offered to help him up.

In what leadership manual would you find this tactic for an effective leader?

Was it even endorsed by Sun Tzu?

 

[Doug]

In what leadership manual would you find this tactic for an effective leader?

Was it even endorsed by Sun Tzu?

Have you ever been blindsided by an NFL player? Ever hear of the LOOKOUT call? I did'nt think so.You don't have to be politically correct on the football field.I think GOD will forgive you.Captains need to send messages anyway they can....PLEASE.....Is that all you've got?

 

[Russ Smith]

Doug, good stuff but you confuse me. If I grasp correctly you're saying we have no speed?

Given that, why are you surprised or complaining that Whiz isn't using "stuff that worked last year" as much as Haley did? Why are you surprised that we're more of a grind it out team this year, where do you think those missing big plays will come from with Breaston and Boldin playing hurt?

I think there has to be a reason we don't see Doucet, either he's not fully healthy or they don't trust him in game situations.

On the Morey play that came back I think it was more the Panthers not being concerned with him than speed. If you noticed later in that same drive Kurt forced a deep ball into coverage where Morey was completely uncovered in the endzone. I don't think Kurt trusts Morey, he has no rapport with him, my guess is that's true with Doucet too. That's probably why we see Boldin and Breaston every week, it's not just the decoy thing, it's that Kurt is more comfortable throwing to them than Urban, Doucet and Morey.

I also think there's no question Kurt's arm isn't as strong this year, you can see it on the downfield throws. I think that's why he's overthrowing Fitz this year, he's throwing the ball with less arc so he can get it there, so instead of lofting it up and letting Fitz win the jumpball, he's trying to throw it there on a line, and he's overthrowing it.

 

[MrYeahBut]

Have you ever been blindsided by an NFL player? Ever hear of the LOOKOUT call? I did'nt think so.You don't have to be politically correct on the football field.I think GOD will forgive you.Captains need to send messages anyway they can....PLEASE.....Is that all you've got?

My man, you have no idea what I know about or don't, nor I about you. You get so obviously testy when any suggestion is made that your hero might have made a mistake, I think you might even be KW himself.

While I agree with you that different rules may at times apply on the football field, that still doesn't excuse it. I don't appreciate our offensive leader chastising one of his teammates with such disdain in full view of this god you mention and everyone else who saw it. I don't see how contempt for a teammate works in any situation, be it in the office, family or football

Since I am not in the business of forgiving souls, I am unable to fathom that whatever level of forgiveness someone might need is of concern to anyone except the individual himself, nor do I see how it is relevant to this discussion, btw

 

[Doug]

Doug, good stuff but you confuse me. If I grasp correctly you're saying we have no speed?

Given that, why are you surprised or complaining that Whiz isn't using "stuff that worked last year" as much as Haley did? Why are you surprised that we're more of a grind it out team this year, where do you think those missing big plays will come from with Breaston and Boldin playing hurt?

I think there has to be a reason we don't see Doucet, either he's not fully healthy or they don't trust him in game situations.

On the Morey play that came back I think it was more the Panthers not being concerned with him than speed. If you noticed later in that same drive Kurt forced a deep ball into coverage where Morey was completely uncovered in the endzone. I don't think Kurt trusts Morey, he has no rapport with him, my guess is that's true with Doucet too. That's probably why we see Boldin and Breaston every week, it's not just the decoy thing, it's that Kurt is more comfortable throwing to them than Urban, Doucet and Morey.

I also think there's no question Kurt's arm isn't as strong this year, you can see it on the downfield throws. I think that's why he's overthrowing Fitz this year, he's throwing the ball with less arc so he can get it there, so instead of lofting it up and letting Fitz win the jumpball, he's trying to throw it there on a line, and he's overthrowing it.

Russ I just think its more speculation.All I've read on either board is that Warner is toast.Lost it.Its his hip.Its his shoulder.Its in his eyes.Where were all of these posters all season long that have appeared just this week come from and why did'nt they post after the Giants WIN???

I really think too many people just like to complain.I think the majority of CARDINALS fans are already traumatized from years of being bad and being hurt and Warner now hold almost every CARDINALS record he can hold in the short time he's been here.At least single season records.So he's the best CARDINAL qb that most have ever seen wear the awesome uniform.

Why so much hatred towards the guy.I admit most of it is on the other board and not so much over on this board where we can at least debate the topic and not just say I want Matt to start forever now.We realize that Matt is 100 times better and should start but I don't think Coach Whiz agree's with those posters and HE MUST HAVE A REASON FOR THAT.

Maybe he's seen what Warner does in practice and after practice working with the other recievers.Warner has had to have been throwing a ton to Morey and Doucet in practice due to Boldin and Breaston sitting everyday in practice.So I don't understand you mentioning his lack of throwing to those players.Thats all he's had to practice with.

Coach Whiz said Doucet is running crisp routes and going up bigtime for the ball in practice yet we have'nt seen him get active yet for a game.I doubt he gets active this week either due to Boldin's pain tolerance.

We run a ton of pick or rub plays that Haley used and we don't use those plays anymore this year.I saw quite a few last night in the saints game.Why don't we use those?You don't have to be super fast to do that.

If Whiz is using two wr's as decoys on the field and expecting success then he is just wrong.Thats putting it very nicely too.

If you can remember back to the Seahawks game and the play calling.That is what we need to do.It was imaginative.It showed new looks on every play.We did the opposite of what we looked like we were gonna do.

The defense got after people in the same fashion and played even better the next week in New York.So I expect to see a good game in Chicago away from the nest and the pressure that seems to be building there.

To say the CARDINALS fans are fickle would be PC too.I think this team is gonna bounce back against a team that is struggling.Even though the bears have two home run hitters in their wideouts and I'm afraid of both of them.One is new to the NFL and the other is Devin Hester who can make a five yard catch into a TD.

We need to pressure Cutler like we did Eli.Really confuse him with looks.Have people everywhere like the 9ers did against Peyton.They did an awesome job of confusing him last Sunday.

Whatever we tried last week must be 86ED.If pride is'nt the main motivator this week after last week,I don't know what will be.We did'nt attack,we waited on folks to come to us.We did'nt wrap up we let people spin out of tackles and run for days.

We can shine the hot spotlight on just Warner if you want,but this team has a ton more troubles than the guy behind the center.Up until last weeks game Warner had 7 turnovers in 6 games and was doing pretty well in the fumbling department.Peppers stripping him from behind does'nt surprise me a bit.He should have just gone down and taken the loss.Its a guy trying to make something happen all the time.So lets jump on him and try to replace him while we have a one game lead in our division.

I really hope things get better with the one topic of focus.It really alienates those that really like what Kurt Warner does for this team and STILL CAN DO. I think favre had a 6 interception game last year and one playoff game against Warner and the lambs and he's come back from it to live again.Can Kurt? We'll see.I think Whiz is in his corner and thats all that matters.

The posters can wring their hands to death and be mad at what they get to see at a home game but so far.Thats whats happened.Lets see if we can get things back ON THE TRACK.I don't think Warner has lost everything in one week like most people I've been reading do.Patience is all I ask.Most people don't have any.It takes long suffering to obtain it.Yet still none do I see.Peace to all great posters on ASFN and may the great posting continue.

 

[Cards_Campos]

Ok I somewhat agree Mokler and I am a huge Warner fan but...Against the Jets last year we played horrific for alot of the game and then the injury to Boldin. It rattled Warner and he easily could have fell apart especially since Q missed games. The Cardinals always stink 4 times a year. It is as clockwork as getting 1 fruitcake for Christmas, people overhyping a team before 12 games have been played. The Cards are a solid football team with tons of holes. If they hide those holes they can beat anybody...If the holes show they can lose to anybody. This team can still win 10 games this year easy and still get whipped in the opening round. The 49ers got blown out at Atlanta and now have a QB that everyone thinks is a savior becuase he played 1 good half against a team playing prevent defense. Let the season play out...but I still think the cream will rise.

 

[DemsMyBoys]

Bottom line for me:

I hope they've opened the roof at UoP to let the stink out.

I have to trust the coaches and players to get it in gear and play football the way every single guy on that team is capable of playing which is gutsy and hard nosed, because I can't go out there and do it for them. Though God knows if He had made me a different sex I'd have loved to have tried.

What I care most about right now is December 6th. Because that's the day Favre comes to town and I do not want him giving us a lesson in how the game is played in our own house. (Unlike most posters here I love him and I'm glad he came back. If he wants to play and if he thinks he can play it's like he said at his first presser as a Viking when he was wearing that cap that I'm pretty sure is his lucky coon huntin' hat: "Those are MY records." I've loved watching him so far this season and during last Sunday's game I was wishing I could switch off the Cardinal's mess and watch him.)

We've got four games to put it into gear and drive it back on the track before Favre comes to town. That game has a real good chance of becoming a Sunday Night game and I do not want to go to bed in a bad mood that night.

 

[SoCal Cardfan]

Wow, I'm torn between reading War and peace again.. or this thread lol.

 

[moklerman]

Something else I didn't touch on, which possible relates to any shoulder issues Warner is having as well as the personnel on the field, is Warner's ability to read the field. This isn't a new issue really but as good as he is at identifying the defense pre-snap, I really wonder about his ability to go through his progressions once the ball is snapped.

I really have no way to know but with his penchant to throw the ball in rhythm to a certain spot and the struggles he seems to have when receivers he's apparently not comfortable with come into the game I have to be concerned about it as part of his game.

I mean, the perception by many is that he's masterful at reading a defense but going through progressions isn't part of that. It's made even more evident when watching the Saints and Drew Brees the very next day. When a play breaks down for Brees or his first read isn't there he seems much more adept at surveying, identifying, finding and hitting a different receiver and making it look like it wasn't a three-ring miracle.

Thankfully, I'm not getting paid the big bucks to find a solution because I'm stumped. I want to say most of the problem stem from the play calling since that's the biggest difference from '07/'08 but that seems to simplistic. It certainly makes me more curious about what kind of input Warner has had with this offense. Can't blame the play calling if he's the one calling the plays.

But I would also say that getting him into a rhythm would help his confidence but all they do now is short passes and that's usually how one would help out his QB. Throw some quick hitter, high percentage stuff and get him going. But they've thrown a ton of that and he's totally out of sync.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Mokler I commend you for your fair write up.

But the schizophrenia on this board is borderline crazy. 82 - The Cardinals are hanging by a thread at this point? C'mon now. We just had two of the best games in regular season team history and because we came out unprepared and got hit in the mouth by a motivated/talented team this past Sunday we are done? LOL talk about what have you done for me lately.

First, I didn't say the Cards are "done"... Second, there is nothing "schizophrenic" about my post. I've been luke-warm at best on this team - consistently.
I believe that any team that experiences such dramatic lows as this team does, including last season, is always operating on the brink and that at anytime can easily slip, permanently, back into a severe downward cycle. I believe we are "that" close to this becoming a reality for this team as this team is extremely immature and weak-minded. Talented for sure, but they remain nothing but a bunch of weak-minded, talented yet extremely inconsistent players... Sooner or later, if they don't get out of this cycle, they will come to learn that good teams don't live in this sort of cycle very long. They either finally figure it out and get over the hump, becoming a respectable, sustained winner. Or, they don't and then fall back into the irrelevant abyss...
This team has not proven to me that they are getting any closer to figuring this out. And IMHO, as a result they are much closer to falling into the abyss than they are becoming a respectable, sustained winner...
This Sunday is big. But again, circle 12/14th on your calendar and may the tougher team with... I hope it's the team wearing red & white!

 

[Russ Smith]

Russ I just think its more speculation.All I've read on either board is that Warner is toast.Lost it.Its his hip.Its his shoulder.Its in his eyes.Where were all of these posters all season long that have appeared just this week come from and why did'nt they post after the Giants WIN???

QUOTE]

I think the thing is outside of the Jax game Kurt hasn't been as good this year as last year.

Last year Kurt had 7 games under 7 YPA, this year he's had 5 in the first 7 games. That's not all on Kurt, lots of problems with WR injuries and the tackles.

I think people like to look for an easy solution, if things don't go well it's either change the QB, or the playcalls suck. My point is Whiz isn't telling Kurt to throw interceptions or hold the ball too long, get hit and fumble. Those are the result of the initial playcall not working and Kurt trying to force it, or sometimes just a bad throw(like the picksix).

It's harder to call plays when 2 of your best players are playing at nowhere near 100%. Last year Kurt had 2 games with a passer rating under 75, this year he's already had 4, for a variety of reasons he's not as good this year as he was last year.

To me the obvious solution is find ways to succeed as an offense the don't completely rely on Kurt to carry the offense like he did last year. I think Kurt has to understand he can't go downfield as much this year because of the Wr injuries, he has to be able to take what is there, move the sticks and do it that way. Yes it makes penalties and turnovers more likely, but there's no point trying to throw the ball downfield a lot when nobody is open downfield.



If you remember the Eagles loss last year, they showed the NFL how to defend our offense, take away Kurt's favorite routes, hit him over and over and he responded with several turnovers. The Cards were able to regroup and by playoff time the offense was clicking.

For that to happen this year I think we need to find a way to limit how much Boldin and Breaston have to play so they can heal. And it's pretty apparent they don't trust Doucet and Morey because they're aren't playing. I'm sure you're right he throws to them in practice, but that's not translating into the games, so I have to assume the coaches see something in practice that leads them to decide to not activate Doucet, not play Morey and keep asking Boldin and Breaston to gut it out?

 

[Jetstream Green]

Warner is fine, he is just not in a position to be himself with this line and the conservative playcalling which is a result of the poor play of the line. Maybe we should shuffle the line a little with the big rookie from LSU...maybe we should put Doucet in there at WR (but is he really healthy as well)? It is the OL and it is on them and not Warner or Whis.

 

[Catfish]

Russ I just think its more speculation.All I've read on either board is that Warner is toast.Lost it.Its his hip.Its his shoulder.Its in his eyes.Where were all of these posters all season long that have appeared just this week come from and why did'nt they post after the Giants WIN???

I really think too many people just like to complain.I think the majority of CARDINALS fans are already traumatized from years of being bad and being hurt and Warner now hold almost every CARDINALS record he can hold in the short time he's been here.At least single season records.So he's the best CARDINAL qb that most have ever seen wear the awesome uniform.

Why so much hatred towards the guy.I admit most of it is on the other board and not so much over on this board where we can at least debate the topic and not just say I want Matt to start forever now.We realize that Matt is 100 times better and should start but I don't think Coach Whiz agree's with those posters and HE MUST HAVE A REASON FOR THAT.

Maybe he's seen what Warner does in practice and after practice working with the other recievers.Warner has had to have been throwing a ton to Morey and Doucet in practice due to Boldin and Breaston sitting everyday in practice.So I don't understand you mentioning his lack of throwing to those players.Thats all he's had to practice with.

Coach Whiz said Doucet is running crisp routes and going up bigtime for the ball in practice yet we have'nt seen him get active yet for a game.I doubt he gets active this week either due to Boldin's pain tolerance.

We run a ton of pick or rub plays that Haley used and we don't use those plays anymore this year.I saw quite a few last night in the saints game.Why don't we use those?You don't have to be super fast to do that.

If Whiz is using two wr's as decoys on the field and expecting success then he is just wrong.Thats putting it very nicely too.

If you can remember back to the Seahawks game and the play calling.That is what we need to do.It was imaginative.It showed new looks on every play.We did the opposite of what we looked like we were gonna do.

The defense got after people in the same fashion and played even better the next week in New York.So I expect to see a good game in Chicago away from the nest and the pressure that seems to be building there.

To say the CARDINALS fans are fickle would be PC too.I think this team is gonna bounce back against a team that is struggling.Even though the bears have two home run hitters in their wideouts and I'm afraid of both of them.One is new to the NFL and the other is Devin Hester who can make a five yard catch into a TD.

We need to pressure Cutler like we did Eli.Really confuse him with looks.Have people everywhere like the 9ers did against Peyton.They did an awesome job of confusing him last Sunday.

Whatever we tried last week must be 86ED.If pride is'nt the main motivator this week after last week,I don't know what will be.We did'nt attack,we waited on folks to come to us.We did'nt wrap up we let people spin out of tackles and run for days.

We can shine the hot spotlight on just Warner if you want,but this team has a ton more troubles than the guy behind the center.Up until last weeks game Warner had 7 turnovers in 6 games and was doing pretty well in the fumbling department.Peppers stripping him from behind does'nt surprise me a bit.He should have just gone down and taken the loss.Its a guy trying to make something happen all the time.So lets jump on him and try to replace him while we have a one game lead in our division.

I really hope things get better with the one topic of focus.It really alienates those that really like what Kurt Warner does for this team and STILL CAN DO. I think favre had a 6 interception game last year and one playoff game against Warner and the lambs and he's come back from it to live again.Can Kurt? We'll see.I think Whiz is in his corner and thats all that matters.

The posters can wring their hands to death and be mad at what they get to see at a home game but so far.Thats whats happened.Lets see if we can get things back ON THE TRACK.I don't think Warner has lost everything in one week like most people I've been reading do.Patience is all I ask.Most people don't have any.It takes long suffering to obtain it.Yet still none do I see.Peace to all great posters on ASFN and may the great posting continue.

SORRY DOUG----some of us have had concerns about KW all year, AND have expressed them. You even called me out for starting a KW thread last week on one of your posts where YOU were the person who said that KW gets extremely upset when HIS receivers are not in the game. Then, (after seeing KW call time-outs 3 weeks in a row with less than 10 minutes in the game to talk to Whiz), we stopped throwing the ball, and I surmized that KW had asked to put the game in his hands. You even called me silly for that assumption, because no one knows what KW and Whiz talk about. I believe assuning they were not talking about the weather is as good an assumption as the one I was called silly for.

Now, I don't know WHAT is wrong with KW, I only know that SOMETHING is. He has the look of a defeated man, like he doesn't even want to be there, and that is not the way he looked or acted last year. THAT IS DIFFERENT, and it CANNOT be contributing to the success of this team.

Many of us have suggested or requested more help for the O-line, and for running the ball more the give him more time, and to bring the secondary up a little so it is easier to go medium or long when we do pass SO. We ALL about the injuries to his recievers, but they continue to play EVEN THOUGH THEY NO LONGER ARE A HELP TO HIM, IN FACT THEY ARE HURTING HIS PERFORMANCE.

Something needs to change, and that is the Head Coach's responsibility to correct. Denying the need for some change in our approach is like doing the same thing over and over, and hoping for a different result. I would guess that Boldin needs to be benched until he is healthy and no longer hurting. I say bring in Doucett to take his place. Breaston can still be a possession receiver, but he can't stretch the field playing hurt. He is also a gifted punt catcher, but can no longer threaten a return. Urban can get at least medium distance downfield on time, but you have to live with him dropping about half of those that hit his hands.

At any rate, SOMETHING needs to change, even if it means running with Beanie more than we pass while our receivers are getting well. Continuing to watch Boldin and Breaston fail to get to the 1st down marker can't continue on. Just Say'in------

 

[Doug]

Catfish.If your going to quote someone then provide the full quote.I was referring to the first game when Kurt was expecting to see Breaston play and a gametime decision was made that he would sit.Instead he got Long and a fullback who could'nt catch a cold.

I was'nt referring to using players as decoys like we've done for a couple weeks now.Totally misenterpreting what I was saying.To say that Kurt was wanting to run his game and call HIS plays or talk about the weather and giving us those (2) GREAT options is like ,can I have door number (3) Alex for REALITY.Neither of those 2 things happened yet you surmize it had to be one of the two meaning your guess?Sorry not buying it.

Just because another poster sees what you see and agrees with what you agree with makes it right in this world of message boards,and I don't play that game.

I know its always much deeper and harder to explain than any of us can do right now and I also am GLAD Whiz is in charge of this team instead of all the hand wringers and people who see things that are'nt there.

I did'nt see anyone posting last week about the world coming to an end when we stink the dome up Sunday after we beat the Giants in thier house for the last time at the old Meadowlands.The giants also went into a major funk too in thier game with the eagles.I think it effected both teams in a negative way that neither showed up for there respective games on Sunday.

This defeated man syndrome EVERYONE has seen is something that someone that hits a person in the chest and has it bounce out and be intercepted looks like.Last night in the saints game,none of the balls were even that close to being near a reciever yet everything was being caught.Just two different games.Different players and different talent levels.

Unlike what many posters on both boards think.Kurt Warner does'nt COACH the CARDINALS and he does'nt get to decide who plays and who does'nt.He does'nt call the plays unless given an option for a check to a run or pass if given that option by the HEAD coach who is also calling the plays.

When this came to a head in the seahags game coach Whiz called a running play with no checkoffs and runs were called.That game went fine.The next game was also a halfway decent game too.We had to play the refs that night though,and that made it very tough on us.Yet we won a very tough game to come home and play a team that is now on a 3-1 turnaround and got payback from the playoff game where delhomme threw picks and the running game was cut off.

This time the running game was successfull all game long.From begining to end.We could'nt stop it and we lost contain on the runs which is something we did in the colts game and also in the giants game.So other teams know how to get outside on us.

This week we play a team with a running back who likes to run outside the tackles and not inside.So I expect to see them attempt the same thing.I know their offensive line is one of the worst in the league and when we played the last team with a very poor offensive line in the seahags we won.

I'm gonna continue to believe COACH WHIZ will make the right adjustments as he has all season long when the same bad things continue to happen.Like the lack of a running game in the second half of games where we had a big lead.He learned that lesson.I now hope he sits Boldin and uses Doucet who has gotten all the reps in practice and shows us something that Boldin can't,and thats RAC after the catch.At least decent speed.Sean Morey isn't a burner but he too was more open than Breaston has been.

Don't know why we would risk our guy returning punts also when he can't get around the corner or up to speed or even attempt to run through the first wave of defenders.Someone else has to be able to catch a punt on our team.Don't know who.

Special teams took a vacation last week and we need the ones that held Hixon to nothing again as we face an awesome return man in Hester this week.

I'm still not buying into all the HYPE that most posters are buying into.Its a long football season and I know which posters seem to over exaggerate what is real and what can be corrected.Yes I feel the same gut wrenching pain from a loss and can't sleep due to seeing such bad play but I won't put it all on one guy when the whole team stunk.DRC and the whole defense stunk.We need Dockett this week and he says he's gonna go if he can walk.

COACH Whiz AND Davis both need to do a much better job of mixing things up and trying to take advantage of the weaknesses of the bears.The bears did beat the steelers at home early on in the season.So I know they can play very tough when they want.I expect to win,but only by a small margin.I expect the defense to show up this week.The play calling is suspect and Warner isn't happy with it.Its obvious he's not drawing up the plays as some others have said also.

Have a GREAT week Catfish and don't buy any wooden nickels.