Tidbit about Mahomes getting drafted ahead of the Cards' pick

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Except Keim probably had Mahomes rated as a 3rd rounder.

if you believe BA from a radio interview last week -- they had Mahomes and Watson rated very high, in that order, and were ready to take one at 13

the failure was not recognizing the demand for them, and not moving up to get them
 

Red Bird

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You don't ever sit back and wait for a QB if you think he's a franchise changing player. Keim should be fired for that alone if they really had Mahomes and Watson rated that high.
 

Solar7

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I still don't buy it would've been hard to trade up. Two first round picks AND A SIGNIFICANT DROP in draft order were offered. Moving up a spot or two wouldn't have been nearly as costly. But, hey, trade the current 1st and next year's first for who you think is the QBOF? In a heartbeat, under many circumstances.
I'm sorry, but when you call someone up and they say "we already have an offer for a 1st," you're just not beating that with a normal 3rd or 2nd. Especially when you have a win now roster.

I remember you were so against trading up & wanting to swing the bat for Kirk Cousins. What a time.
Wrong year. And yeah, I didn't want to trade years and years of 1st picks to move into the top 5 like some were suggesting. If we had done that, we could have easily ended up with Sam Darnold and handing out the #1 overall pick the next year, and probably a top 5 pick the year after.

You’re right. And if mahomes turned out to be even a fraction of what he’s become that meltdown would’ve been completely forgotten and keim would be a hero instead of a zero.
Hindsight, again. You have to go with what was right at the time. Much of the consensus at draft time was that you could even trade back and get one of those guys. If we could predict the future, we'd be a much better team.

We simply got stuck in a rock and a hard place, where we couldn't just give away for our 1st rounder the following year to move up 1-3 spots, when the players were just simply unproven.
 

Jetstream Green

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It's been mentioned before but if Kingsbury couldn't win with a talent like Mahomes in college then how is he going to win even with Murray?

Andy Reid's tutelage has led taken Mahomes talent and made him a star. You get Murray into the hands of an offensive guru and this team may have the same success BAL has with Jackson.

Allow me sir to step in and squash this for you while I do not care about who wins another Super Bowl which does not include the Cardinals. Did you see Watson's stats this year at QB? He had a MVP year on that but the Texans won like four freaking games. Watson is the shiat, smart and a leader and still could not get the Texans to respectability and that alone I cannot blame him for wanting out. Now, stats are not everything, but this is a game which extends past QB. Mahomes does not play defense. Reid could not do squat with McNabb if a Lombardi Trophy is the objective. Kingsbury knew enough to secure Mahomes when others did not want him with his feeble pull of Texas Tech. Kingsbury drives me nuts with his game management but not his ability to hone a QB
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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I'm sorry, but when you call someone up and they say "we already have an offer for a 1st," you're just not beating that with a normal 3rd or 2nd. Especially when you have a win now roster.


Wrong year. And yeah, I didn't want to trade years and years of 1st picks to move into the top 5 like some were suggesting. If we had done that, we could have easily ended up with Sam Darnold and handing out the #1 overall pick the next year, and probably a top 5 pick the year after.


Hindsight, again. You have to go with what was right at the time. Much of the consensus at draft time was that you could even trade back and get one of those guys. If we could predict the future, we'd be a much better team.

We simply got stuck in a rock and a hard place, where we couldn't just give away for our 1st rounder the following year to move up 1-3 spots, when the players were just simply unproven.
I don’t understand why people make these statements or refer to draft grades. Those are the thoughts of people that aren’t actually NFL employees or GMs. In other words they may hold slightly more weight than anyone on this board. I would be willing to bet that a canvassing of actual nfl talent evaluators doesn’t track that consensus.
 

Solar7

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I don’t understand why people make these statements or refer to draft grades. Those are the thoughts of people that aren’t actually NFL employees or GMs. In other words they may hold slightly more weight than anyone on this board. I would be willing to bet that a canvassing of actual nfl talent evaluators doesn’t track that consensus.
I'm well aware, but I think it's fair to say that people that do this for a living and even GMs in mocks would have found it a shocking ascertation that two teams were going to move up from the 20s into the 10th/12th picks, especially the two that did.
 

GatorAZ

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I'm sorry, but when you call someone up and they say "we already have an offer for a 1st," you're just not beating that with a normal 3rd or 2nd. Especially when you have a win now roster.


Wrong year. And yeah, I didn't want to trade years and years of 1st picks to move into the top 5 like some were suggesting. If we had done that, we could have easily ended up with Sam Darnold and handing out the #1 overall pick the next year, and probably a top 5 pick the year after.


Hindsight, again. You have to go with what was right at the time. Much of the consensus at draft time was that you could even trade back and get one of those guys. If we could predict the future, we'd be a much better team.

We simply got stuck in a rock and a hard place, where we couldn't just give away for our 1st rounder the following year to move up 1-3 spots, when the players were just simply unproven.

Houston and KC gave up more because their first rounder was further back and less valuable. And who cares if it costs and extra first? We’re talking about a franchise quarterback not a franchise strong safety.
 

Solar7

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Houston and KC gave up more because their first rounder was further back and less valuable. And who cares if it costs and extra first? We’re talking about a franchise quarterback not a franchise strong safety.
Because we didn't know at the time that these guys were franchise QBs. I'm saying you can't be mad at the Cardinals with the benefit of hindsight. There wasn't a single person on this board on draft day that day that was mad we didn't hand over a 1st round pick for one of these guys. And I really wanted both, but I would have blown a gasket if we traded a first to move 2-3 picks.
 

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Because we didn't know at the time that these guys were franchise QBs. I'm saying you can't be mad at the Cardinals with the benefit of hindsight. There wasn't a single person on this board on draft day that day that was mad we didn't hand over a 1st round pick for one of these guys. And I really wanted both, but I would have blown a gasket if we traded a first to move 2-3 picks.

What kind of cop out is that? Who drafts a player that high not expecting success?
 

DVontel

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Because we didn't know at the time that these guys were franchise QBs. I'm saying you can't be mad at the Cardinals with the benefit of hindsight. There wasn't a single person on this board on draft day that day that was mad we didn't hand over a 1st round pick for one of these guys. And I really wanted both, but I would have blown a gasket if we traded a first to move 2-3 picks.
They got traded up for a reason Solar, lol.
 

Solar7

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What kind of cop out is that? Who drafts a player that high not expecting success?
You expect, and you hope, but your evaluations still have warts on certain players with few exceptions in the top two or so. The draft always has an element of potential busts.

They got traded up for a reason Solar, lol.
https://www.arizonasportsfans.com/forum/threads/who-are-the-qbs-you-like-in-this-draft.249309/

That didn't really seem to be your take at the time.

Nor for many others:

https://www.arizonasportsfans.com/f...ne-of-the-top-qbs-wont-be-there-at-13.249148/

https://www.arizonasportsfans.com/forum/threads/who-is-worth-trading-up-for.249414/

https://www.arizonasportsfans.com/f...totally-hate-to-see-cards-draft-at-13.249359/
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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I'm well aware, but I think it's fair to say that people that do this for a living and even GMs in mocks would have found it a shocking ascertation that two teams were going to move up from the 20s into the 10th/12th picks, especially the two that did.
I’ve never heard anyone speak on it from the nfl side, so I don’t know. But the very fact that it did actually happen indicates that it wasn’t as outlandish as you make it out to seem. Particularly with how often QBs are the target of trade ups in the first round.
 

Solar7

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I’ve never heard anyone speak on it from the nfl side, so I don’t know. But the very fact that it did actually happen indicates that it wasn’t as outlandish as you make it out to seem. Particularly with how often QBs are the target of trade ups in the first round.
I'm just saying I don't blame the Cardinals.

They're probably sitting there on draft day thinking "okay, maybe we trade a 3rd rounder for the opportunity here," and then are blindsided by two teams going "okay, we're being offered a 1st, we don't think a 3rd and slight move back are worth more than a 1st, what are you giving?"

Then you have to start to question exactly how much you trust your evaluation of Mahomes' sloppy footwork, or the medical on Watson's knee, knowing that there's a non-zero chance you're going to get lambasted by fans, media, or your coaches/ownership if this guy doesn't pan out.

If Keim had passed on the two for Reddick or something and they were available, I'd hammer Keim on it like I do for most of his decisions. But he gets a pass here.
 

DVontel

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You expect, and you hope, but your evaluations still have warts on certain players with few exceptions in the top two or so. The draft always has an element of potential busts.


https://www.arizonasportsfans.com/forum/threads/who-are-the-qbs-you-like-in-this-draft.249309/

That didn't really seem to be your take at the time.

Nor for many others:

https://www.arizonasportsfans.com/f...ne-of-the-top-qbs-wont-be-there-at-13.249148/

https://www.arizonasportsfans.com/forum/threads/who-is-worth-trading-up-for.249414/

https://www.arizonasportsfans.com/f...totally-hate-to-see-cards-draft-at-13.249359/
That post doesn’t show that I didn’t think Mahomes & Watson were franchise QBs.

You just asked folks what order you like them lol the hell.
 

Solar7

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That post doesn’t show that I didn’t think Mahomes & Watson were franchise QBs.

You just asked folks what order you like them lol the hell.
That wasn't my thread, but having Kizer above them wasn't particularly an endorsement that they were worth trading up for. I'm just saying, almost none of this board was mad around that time about not moving up. To be mad now because they turned out to be good is nothing but hindsight influencing your anger.

Is anyone mad right now that we didn't give up multiple firsts to get Mayfield or Darnold? Paxton Lynch? Happy we moved up for Rosen?
 
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Ouchie-Z-Clown

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That wasn't my thread, but having Kizer above them wasn't particularly an endorsement that they were worth trading up for. I'm just saying, almost none of this board was mad around that time about not moving up. To be mad now because they turned out to be good is nothing but hindsight influencing your anger.

Is anyone mad right now that we didn't give up multiple firsts to get Mayfield or Darnold? Paxton Lynch? Happy we moved up for Rosen?
I didn’t know enough about mahomes but I was mad about Watson. And wasn’t excited about Reddick. And I wasn’t mad at grading up for Rosen because I knew we had to trade up for a QB. I wouldn’t have been at doing so for mayfield or darnold. Instead I would’ve been mad at keim for being so poor at talent evaluation. And didn’t lynch go 26th?
 

overseascardfan

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Allow me sir to step in and squash this for you while I do not care about who wins another Super Bowl which does not include the Cardinals. Did you see Watson's stats this year at QB? He had a MVP year on that but the Texans won like four freaking games. Watson is the shiat, smart and a leader and still could not get the Texans to respectability and that alone I cannot blame him for wanting out. Now, stats are not everything, but this is a game which extends past QB. Mahomes does not play defense. Reid could not do squat with McNabb if a Lombardi Trophy is the objective. Kingsbury knew enough to secure Mahomes when others did not want him with his feeble pull of Texas Tech. Kingsbury drives me nuts with his game management but not his ability to hone a QB
O'Brien should never have been a GM but he was a pretty good coach and OC in his career. You have to give him some credit for Watson's development much like Reid developing Mahomes. My point is Murray's numbers are mostly because of him making plays (the same with Watson's numbers this year) and not because of Kingsbury's system as you mentioned his game management was lacking but his system has proven to be a dud.

My question to you is, do the Arizona Cardinals win a SB with Kliff Kingsbury as HC? If the answer is no, then to my point, ARZ needs to find a coach that will not waste Murray's talent. If we continue on the Kingsbury path I think the recent talk of Murray still wanting to play baseball along with football may lead him back to baseball as he is obviously frustrated right now because he can't play both IMO.
 

juza76

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Harry didnt like Mahomes, sometimes the experts fails:cool:

I have been as often happen right, the pick I would have hated at 13, I said Kizer

Btw Mahomes was my favourite qb in that draft, but big kudos to u of being one of the few wishing to draft him and trading up for him

You expect, and you hope, but your evaluations still have warts on certain players with few exceptions in the top two or so. The draft always has an element of potential busts.


https://www.arizonasportsfans.com/forum/threads/who-are-the-qbs-you-like-in-this-draft.249309/

That didn't really seem to be your take at the time.

Nor for many others:

https://www.arizonasportsfans.com/f...ne-of-the-top-qbs-wont-be-there-at-13.249148/

https://www.arizonasportsfans.com/forum/threads/who-is-worth-trading-up-for.249414/

https://www.arizonasportsfans.com/f...totally-hate-to-see-cards-draft-at-13.249359/
 
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juza76

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@Solar7 I was a Mahomes fans too but didn't find any of my messages there
How do I search for an old thread?
 

Solar7

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@Solar7 I was a Mahomes fans too but didn't find any of my messages there
How do I search for an old thread?
I literally just jumped back to 2017... around page 150 or so, if I recall.

There's also the search function on the top right of the page - you could limit your search to "Mahomes" and only posts by you.
 

Cheesebeef

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Man... BA with a young QB like Mahommes or Watson would have been a dream scenario... as long as someone kidnapped Amos Jones. I had ZERO read on Mahommes but was salivating for Watson.

even with Infamous Amos that would have been awesome. BA is a great coach and the closer we get to the game time, the more I find myself hoping he wins.
 
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WisconsinCard

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Harry didnt like Mahomes, sometimes the experts fails:cool:

I have been as often happen right, the pick I would have hated at 13, I said Kizer

Btw Mahomes was my favourite qb in that draft, but big kudos to u of being one of the few wishing to draft him and trading up for him
I said any QB that wasn't Watson so I was in the game.
 

Russ Smith

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So if I'm following this. Arians wanted a QB and was convinced we were getting Mahomes at 13, if not him Watson. The Cards were so convinced KC didn't want a QB even when they moved up to 10, we weren't on the phone trying to get closer to lock down Watson. So KC took Mahomes at 10. The Saints didn't want Watson, but had wanted Mahomes, so we could have got the Saints pick and Watson but again Keim didn't expect Houston to move up for Watson so he didn't do anything. Saints took Lattimore, and then Houston swapped with Buffalo and got Watson.

You can't know everything but given all the reports that Houston liked Watson and he had a great meeting with them, that should ahve been on the radar, so the minute KC swooped in to take Mahomes, we should have moved with the Saints to get Watson.

Talk about changing things we got one more year of Arians then he retired, Palmer retired, Wilks, Rosen and finally we got Murray.

I love Kyler but I would rather have had Mahomes or Watson in 2017, and kept Arians but I guess hindsight is 20/20.
 

football karma

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So if I'm following this. Arians wanted a QB and was convinced we were getting Mahomes at 13, if not him Watson. The Cards were so convinced KC didn't want a QB even when they moved up to 10, we weren't on the phone trying to get closer to lock down Watson.

this is pretty much what BA said to Doug/Wolf a week ago
 

Russ Smith

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this is pretty much what BA said to Doug/Wolf a week ago


Sucks because I love Murray but I'd rather have Mahomes or Watson AND Arians, and it sounds like that was the option. If we'd have been able to get the next QB, Bruce probably doesn't burn out and retire with Palmer.
 
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