Tim Couch Released

[kerouac9]

ESPN.com Story

You heard it here first!

About 1000X more potential than Preston Parsons, but I still don't want him.

 

[jf-08]

ESPN.com Story

You heard it here first!

About 1000X more potential than Preston Parsons, but I still don't want him.

wow - that is really surprising.

good work, k9!

 

[mdamien13]

About 1000X more potential than Preston Parsons, but I still don't want him.

Hear, hear.

 

[Russ Smith]

ESPN.com Story

You heard it here first!

About 1000X more potential than Preston Parsons, but I still don't want him.

I heard this on radio just now coming back from Home Depot, the radio guy said "I don't know about cutting Couch, maybe he just needs some reupholstering"

Sorry, I got a cortisone shot in my elbow this morning(and I do mean IN my elbow) I think it's starting to warp my sense of humor.

 

[Wild Card]

ESPN.com Story

You heard it here first!

About 1000X more potential than Preston Parsons, but I still don't want him.

K9:

Good enough for the Green Bay Packers, but not worthy of a long look by the Arizona Cardinals. Well-suited to sit behind Brett Favre, but not qualified to carry Josh McCown's clipboard. Makes sense to me. Per Len Pasquarelli, in the linked article:

"Given that they have come to know and to understand Couch, and that the coaching staff genuinely likes him, the Packers remain the early favorites for the services of a veteran who now moves to the top of the wish list for clubs still unsettled at the quarterback spot. But as a totally unfettered free agent, with compensation to the Browns no longer needed, it will not be surprising if the list of suitors grows.

Couch could strike a quick deal in Green Bay, since he is further along with the Packers than with other franchises, but the odds are that he will take a few days to at least explore potential other options and to see if the phone rings. Just 26 years of age, with a resume that includes 59 regular-season starts, the quick consensus of a few personnel directors contacted on Wednesday afternoon is that Couch will have some alternatives... Couch would seem a good fit in San Francisco and Arizona, too, as a starter even, but both the Cardinals and the 49ers have had earlier opportunities to sign veterans this spring, and passed every time."


Sure hope McCown's the real deal. Sure hope that This_Guy, among others, is right about the hidden talent of Shaun King, if McCown crashes and burns.

WC

 

[azdad1978]

ESPN.com Story

You heard it here first!

About 1000X more potential than Preston Parsons, but I still don't want him.

 

[This_Guy]

Sure hope that This_Guy, among others, is right about the hidden talent of Shaun King, if McCown crashes and burns.

It has nothing to do with hidden talent, and has everything to do with misperception.

See for yourself:

starts comp att % yds td int rating
King: 22 368 654 56.3% 4064 26 20 75.4
Couch: 59 1025 1714 59.8% 11131 64 67 75.1

per start:
Yds TDs Ints
King: 185 1.2 .9
Couch: 188 1.0 1.1

....just the facts.

 

[az jam]

IMO he will be a Packer shortly.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

ESPN.com Story

You heard it here first!

About 1000X more potential than Preston Parsons, but I still don't want him.

Nope.

I am a big believer in Tim Couch. The guy gets the shaft every year ala Marcell Shipp. Ever year its a competition. Every week it is your starting, your not starting, your starting again.

He has had to perform under huge amounts of pressure, with a sub-par team, AND was "replaced" while he was injured.

Tim Couch will go back to his rookie form. As soon as he finds a team that believes in him again.

 

[Wild Card]

It has nothing to do with hidden talent, and has everything to do with misperception.

See for yourself:

starts comp att % yds td int rating
King: 22 368 654 56.3% 4064 26 20 75.4
Couch: 59 1025 1714 59.8% 11131 64 67 75.1

per start:
Yds TDs Ints
King: 185 1.2 .9
Couch: 188 1.0 1.1

....just the facts.

T_G:

I gotta say, I admire your dogged loyalty to Shaun King. But you're comparing statistics, straight-up, between a 22-game starter on a team with ten Pro Bowlers (in King's only full season as a starter), and a 59-game starter for an expansion team. Even given the huge difference in quality between their supporting casts, King's and Tim Couch's career stats are almost interchangeable, with Couch having both a higher completion percentage and a better (6.5 vs 6.2) YPA, probably the most important single statistic for an NFL quarterback.

King or Couch? I'd take Couch, in a heartbeat. So would most of the personnel guys in the league.

WC

 

[This_Guy]

But you're comparing statistics, straight-up, between a 22-game starter on a team with ten Pro Bowlers (in King's only full season as a starter), and a 59-game starter for an expansion team.

That's not at all a fair representation of the scenario:

All of the pro-bowlers in Tampa were on defense, so how does that impact King's stats? The only offensive players with pro-bowl credentials were Randall McDaniel, Jeff Christy and Keyshawn. McDaniel played so poorly that season that the Bucs told him to retire or be cut and Christy was replaced the following season for poor play. Tony Dungy was fired for his offensive scheme and the 2 coordinators King had, Les Steckel and Clyde Christensen, have been position coaches since being fired by the Bucs.

Tim Couch has had the benefit of Northcutt, Kevin Johnson and Andre Davis, so I can't cry for Couch. The supporting casts on offense are interchangable at the worst. 2 years is enough of an excuse for "expansion", but after that, anything goes. Jacksonville and Carolina were far from "expansion" teams 3 years after inception.

The difference being, Couch has never done anything of note, but continues to get chances. King had one and a half season, set records, won games, and somehow became an afterthought. Again, it's just perception.

Couch has had 5 chances (years), and has never accomplished what King accomplished in his 1 chance (year). So explain to me why King is the one that's garbage and Couch is the one that needs a change of scenery?

I'd take Couch, in a heartbeat. So would most of the personnel guys in the league.

Again, that's the PERCEPTION, but not the fact. King had two concrete offers on day one of free agency (Arizona and Atlanta) and the Bucs were interested in bringing him back but had to free up $ first. Which other QB besides Garcia had that much interest on the free market? Do you really believe that these teams that offered King didn't know Couch would eventually be a free agent? Or Warner? Or Blake? Or Kordell?

Again, we'll see if I'm right in training camp. Oh, and Denny Green agrees with me that he'd rather have King than Couch.

 

[JeffGollin]

Tim Couch Released
Sofa so good.

(Sorry. I couldn't resist).

 

[Wild Card]

All of the pro-bowlers in Tampa were on defense, so how does that impact King's stats?

T_G:

Now, you're just getting sloppy. I was mistaken, in that Tampa Bay only sent eight players, not ten, to the Pro Bowl after the 2000 season, Shaun King's only season as a 16-game starter. But those eight honorees were evenly divided between the offense and defense, as follows:

OFF: Mike Alstott, Jeff Christy, Warrick Dunn, Randall McDaniel
DEF: Donnie Abraham, Derrick Brooks, John Lynch, Warren Sapp

Maybe it's just me, but I'd think that having four of the other ten starters on offense named to the Pro Bowl would indicate better-than-average talent around the QB. In the five seasons that Tim Couch played in Cleveland, on the other hand, the Browns sent one player to the Pro Bowl. And that was a defensive player, ex-Cardinal LB Jamir Miller, after the 2001 season.

King had two concrete offers on day one of free agency... and the Bucs were interested in bringing him back... Which other QB besides Garcia had that much interest on the free market? Do you really believe that these teams that offered King didn't know Couch would eventually be a free agent? Or Warner?

Ridiculous comparisons. Shaun King was an unrestricted FA, with no rights of any kind held by Tampa Bay. And neither Arizona nor Atlanta wanted him as anything but a back-up. Didn't take Jeff Garcia or Kurt Warner long to sign with the Browns and Giants, respectively, as the starters, once their former teams released them, did it? Now that Cleveland has given up on getting a deal for Couch, it won't take him long to sign, either.

... we'll see if I'm right in training camp. Oh, and Denny Green agrees with me that he'd rather have King than Couch.

If Dennis Green really gets what he wants, what you'll see is Shaun King running the second team in training camp and the scout team during regular-season practices. King's biggest virtue as a back-up is that no one thinks he was brought here to challenge Josh McCown for the starting position, which Green has made clear belongs to McCown. Couch--or Garcia, or Warner--would've come here expecting to start.

The only way you'll see King do anything of substance is if McCown gets hurt, or if Green badly overestimated his readiness to be an NFL starter. And if either of those is the case, you and Green had better be right that King is a viable alternative.

Otherwise, it's gonna be a lo-o-o-ng season.

WC

 

[Russ Smith]

That's not at all a fair representation of the scenario:

All of the pro-bowlers in Tampa were on defense, so how does that impact King's stats?

Again, that's the PERCEPTION, but not the fact. King had two concrete offers on day one of free agency (Arizona and Atlanta) and the Bucs were interested in bringing him back but had to free up $ first. Which other QB besides Garcia had that much interest on the free market? Do you really believe that these teams that offered King didn't know Couch would eventually be a free agent? Or Warner? Or Blake? Or Kordell?

Again, we'll see if I'm right in training camp. Oh, and Denny Green agrees with me that he'd rather have King than Couch.

Arguably have 10 pro bowlers on defense(did they really have 10?) would mean a QB would have the luxury of playing conservative because he KNOWS the defense isn't going to get run all over the field. That was always DCCardsfans argument for why Jake threw so many picks and was so bad in the first quarter, he knew if he didnt' get ahead the D would give up points, so he took chances.

As for job chances, it could also mean that NFL Gm's knew King would accept a backup role, but weren't sure Couch would? Remember the Packers interest is largely based on the assumption that Favre will soon retire and then Couch might be their future QB. The teams that pursued King weren't looking for a starter, or even competition, just a backup with a solid resume.

I will admit his stats look better than I would have guessed, and you're right that Green knows more about QB talent than any of us do.

 

[Wild Card]

Arguably have 10 pro bowlers on defense(did they really have 10?) would mean a QB would have the luxury of playing conservative because he KNOWS the defense isn't going to get run all over the field.

Russ:

No, I'd exaggerated in saying that the 2000 Bucs had ten Pro Bowlers. They only had eight. And This_Guy was way off in saying they were all on defense. Half-and-half, with 40 percent of the OL and the starting FB and RB all going to Hawaii at the end of the season.

Yeah, the Bucs had a pretty good defensive team that year, ranked 12th in the league for total yards allowed. But their run offense was even better, ranked 9th for rushing yards. Hard to make a case that Shaun King didn't have above-average support, on both sides of the ball.

WC

 

[kerouac9]

K9:

Good enough for the Green Bay Packers, but not worthy of a long look by the Arizona Cardinals. Well-suited to sit behind Brett Favre, but not qualified to carry Josh McCown's clipboard. Makes sense to me. Per Len Pasquarelli, in the linked article:

"Given that they have come to know and to understand Couch, and that the coaching staff genuinely likes him, the Packers remain the early favorites for the services of a veteran who now moves to the top of the wish list for clubs still unsettled at the quarterback spot. But as a totally unfettered free agent, with compensation to the Browns no longer needed, it will not be surprising if the list of suitors grows.

Couch could strike a quick deal in Green Bay, since he is further along with the Packers than with other franchises, but the odds are that he will take a few days to at least explore potential other options and to see if the phone rings. Just 26 years of age, with a resume that includes 59 regular-season starts, the quick consensus of a few personnel directors contacted on Wednesday afternoon is that Couch will have some alternatives... Couch would seem a good fit in San Francisco and Arizona, too, as a starter even, but both the Cardinals and the 49ers have had earlier opportunities to sign veterans this spring, and passed every time."


Sure hope McCown's the real deal. Sure hope that This_Guy, among others, is right about the hidden talent of Shaun King, if McCown crashes and burns.

WC

As always, WC, you make a compelling argument. I'll say from the start that I didn't like Couch when he was drafted, so maybe we're coming from different places.

The other thing is that the Cards and Niners and Packers are coming from two totally different places. The Packers are just trying to hold a team together long enough to keep Favre from retiring, and keep contending for a Super Bowl. Despite with Dennis Green is saying, I think that the Cards are looking an 8-8 season right in the eye. Tim Couch is definitely a better caddy than Craig Nall or Doug Pederson if Favre has to sit after the first quarter, or (God forbid) has to go down for a couple games. Couch could probably keep the Packers in contention for a three-game stretch, and would be worth the 1-year, $1.5 mil. contract that Len theorizes.

What's his utility to the Cards? As a starter? If Mike Vick or Peyton Manning were to demand a trade to the Cards, and get it, I'm not convinced that they'd be starting ahead of--*shudder*--Josh McCown at this point. So we'd basically have another Jeff Blake sitting behind Josh McCown, who's not really playing for anything but dollars. Tim Couch (from everything I've heard) doesn't bring much in the leadership department, and what would he have to teach to Josh McCown? How to have a sub-60% completion percentage? What flashes has Tim Couch shown to justify his status as a #1 overall draft pick at this point? Tim Couch seems a lot to me like Rob Johnson at this point. How many chances is he going to get?

The Cards don't need this guy. He'd be a distraction.

 

[Wild Card]

As always, WC, you make a compelling argument. I'll say from the start that I didn't like Couch when he was drafted, so maybe we're coming from different places.

The other thing is that the Cards and Niners and Packers are coming from two totally different places... What's (Couch's) utility to the Cards? As a starter? ...we'd basically have another Jeff Blake sitting behind Josh McCown, who's not really playing for anything but dollars...The Cards don't need this guy. He'd be a distraction.

K9:

Thanks. And your points are well-taken, too. After the back-and-forth I've had with This_Guy, I've become convinced that you're right. That is, Tim Couch probably wouldn't fit with the Cardinals. He'd expect--rightly or wrongly--to come in and compete for the starting job, if not be handed it outright. It's one thing for a quarterback with 59 starts in five seasons to sit behind Brett Favre. It's another thing to wait patiently on the sidelines for Josh McCown to either get benched or get hurt.

Shaun King, on the other hand, has ridden the pine for most of his five years in the NFL, including the last three seasons. It's not like anyone expects him to take McCown's job. (Well, almost anyone.) He's unlikely to be a distraction, considering the professionalism with which he handled his demotion and backup status in Tampa Bay. If the Cards are forced to stick him behind center, at least King has demonstrated that he can win games in this league, given some support. The Cards could do worse.

So I'll wish Couch well, and watch with interest to see if he reaches his considerable potential with a better team. And hope that McCown plays well and stays healthy, making any debate over his backup's skills moot.

WC

 

[Tangodnzr]

Best thread I've read in a while.

Seems to be too few of decent quality one's like this, lately.

 

[Russ Smith]

K9:


Shaun King, on the other hand, has ridden the pine for most of his five years in the NFL, including the last three seasons. It's not like anyone expects him to take McCown's job. (Well, almost anyone.) He's unlikely to be a distraction, considering the professionalism with which he handled his demotion and backup status in Tampa Bay. If the Cards are forced to stick him behind center, at least King has demonstrated that he can win games in this league, given some support. The Cards could do worse.

So I'll wish Couch well, and watch with interest to see if he reaches his considerable potential with a better team. And hope that McCown plays well and stays healthy, making any debate over his backup's skills moot.

WC

FWIW on the Bronco board they're quoting Pasquarelli as saying that while Green Bay is the frontrunner, he might look at a team like Denver too.

The reasoning is many feel Couch took the blame for being thrown into an expansion situation with a mediocre OL and young (but talented) WR's. Butch Davis essentially blamed Couch for everything and Couch didn't(admittedly) handle it well. But a guy like Shanahan worked wonders with Jake and might do the same for Couch.

Given Couch wants to start, and the Broncos best backup is Kanell, the thinking is they might strike a 1 year deal to tutor Couch, while their 2 rookies learn, and then let the new improved Couch try the open market again next year.

Couch has been mentioned in Oakland and SF but Oakland would appear to be out now and SF has no caproom.

Green Bay figures to sign him but it WOULD be interesting if he went to Denver.

His biggest problem is he played in a system in college that left him totally unprepared for the NFL, they had no playbook at UK. He has been completely overwhelmed by the complexity of the NFL game, he still has the arm, he just had a LONG learning curve because of his college situation. VEry similar to David Klingler who never did adapt and flamed out.

 

[cardsunsfan]

Tango, if you think there are so few good threads why don't you start a few more?

 

[kerouac9]

Green Bay figures to sign him but it WOULD be interesting if he went to Denver.

His biggest problem is he played in a system in college that left him totally unprepared for the NFL, they had no playbook at UK. He has been completely overwhelmed by the complexity of the NFL game, he still has the arm, he just had a LONG learning curve because of his college situation. VEry similar to David Klingler who never did adapt and flamed out.

I don't know. Even if Plummer gets hurt (and remember that he was an Iron Man in Arizona), Couch would probably be in a better situation, with a better supporting cast, doing injury and mop-up work in Green Bay. He could also have a greater liklihood of winning a ring there than in Denver, where the recieving corps is kind of a mess, and the O-line and RB situation is far less muddled.

It's an interesting idea, but for the same money, where you would rather play? It'd be more interesting if New England offered him a deal at the minimum for a season. That's intrigue.

 

[Russ Smith]

I don't know. Even if Plummer gets hurt (and remember that he was an Iron Man in Arizona), Couch would probably be in a better situation, with a better supporting cast, doing injury and mop-up work in Green Bay. He could also have a greater liklihood of winning a ring there than in Denver, where the recieving corps is kind of a mess, and the O-line and RB situation is far less muddled.

It's an interesting idea, but for the same money, where you would rather play? It'd be more interesting if New England offered him a deal at the minimum for a season. That's intrigue.

The thinking is Couch would LEARN more in Denver with Shanahan and Kubiak than he would in Green Bay with Sherman and Favre(who supposedly has zero interest in tutoring a young QB and hasn't for years).

The other thing to remember is Jake's deal, basically it's a 2 year deal with an option. He played great year 1, but if for some reason he flames out this year, having an even younger prospect behind him WOULD give Denver the option of just not picking up the option on Jake, and keeping Couch instead.

Jake WAS an ironman of sorts here but if they continue to run that offense he won't be in Denver. That's why they drafted TWO mobile Qb's later in the draft in Van Pelt and Mauck, they realize that they have to have backups who can run the same moving pocket otherwise when Jake gets hurt, they have to totally change the offense.

FWIW they think they're going to the Superbowl this year(some do) and I can't say it's any more farfetched than us talking about a playoff berth.

They're all really high on Tatum Bell and Hearst at RB, seems backup QB is the biggest concern because they saw what happened last year with Jake taking all those hits out of the pocket and nobody else on the roster being able to run that system.

 

[Bobcat]

Hey guy's why dont we go for JC if you feel that Denver would be a good place for him wht not here. Or is this another way to back hand Jake.

Allan

 

[Russ Smith]

Hey guy's why dont we go for JC if you feel that Denver would be a good place for him wht not here. Or is this another way to back hand Jake.

Allan

Because Pasquarelli says Couch has an interest in Denver because of Shanahan. if he'd said he had an interest here because of DG we might be discussing that instead.

DG has said all along that Josh is the QB, Couch wants to start. He apparently thinks Green Bay is the best choice because Favre will retire soon, but he also thinks Denver could really help his career because he is still a very RAW QB (like Jake was when he left) and he saw what Shanahan did for Jake and has an interest in getting the same type of coaching to further his career.

The problem of course is it's unlikely Shanahan and Kubiak would do that with Couch, why train him to go FA(assuming Jake is for real)? And remember they basically adopted Jake and spent an entire year drilling him as a QB, it's unlikely they would spend NEAR that much time on Couch as a backup, they did it with Jake because they signed him to start.

 

[vikesfan]

What a waste it would have been to trade for this guy or any player who a team will release for free.

The comparison with S King is very appropriate. The big difference is S King never demanded that the starter's job be given to him, he also never cried like a baby when things didn't go his way, he also led a team to the NFC final. Perhaps some bias is showing through.