Today's trade proposal

[elindholm]

The New York papers are saying that the Knicks want to move out some of their excess power forwards and point guards for a shooting guard. Since they don't care about money, they might go for this:

Phoenix gets
Charlie Ward ($6,030,000, 2004)
Travis Knight ($4,400,000, 2004)
Othella Harrington ($2,925,000, 2005)

New York gets
Penny Hardaway ($13,500,000, 2006)
2004 or 2005 first-round pick (Phoenix option)

No normal team would make this trade from the Knicks' standpoint, but the Knicks are not a normal team. They are miles over the luxury tax threshold, and there's no end in sight (assuming they retain McDyess after this year). So they might as well add some talent to try to get better.

C Mutombo/Thomas/Lampe
PF Thomas/McDyess/Sweetney
SF Van Horn/Weatherspoon/Anderson
SG Houston/Hardaway/Anderson
PG Eisley/Hardaway/Williams

Obviously it's a terrific financial move for Phoenix. Ward would be bought out. Harrington and Travis Knight would probably make the team in favor of some of the other big man stiffs currently on the roster. The Suns would have to eat some small contracts here and there this season, but their salary situation in 2004-05 would be much, much better.

 

[Travis Bickle]

Even Scott Layden's not that stupid, unfortunately.

 

[elindholm]

Why would it be stupid? If you have infinite money, Hardaway doesn't look so bad right now. There's no question that their team would be better after the trade, plus they get an extra draft pick.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I'd give up Penny and the pick for nothing. But I suppose we would have to take something back. I am not impressed with any of those players but there is alot of merit to this trade proposal.

I do believe Penny would start at pg in that line up.

 

[Travis Bickle]

You're right, I think they Knicks would be better after the trade, but so many teams are looking to shed salary, I would think Layden could get a better player than Penny for expiring or soon-to-be-expiring contracts (i.e., Jalen Rose, Antonio Davis, maybe Brian Grant). Don't get me wrong, I'd love for it to happen--we'd be players in f.a. as early as next year--but I just don't see it. Hope I'm wrong.

 

[Yuma]

Even Scott Layden's not that stupid, unfortunately.

Remember the Knicks ARE the team who took that Australian STIFF (sorry, I can't remember his name), gave us a center who ended up being better, a DRAFT PICK AND MONEY, too!! To date, I think that was the worst trade I have EVER seen a team make!! The Aussie never really played for NY because of injuries, THAT HE HAD BEFORE WE SHIPPED HIM!! They even took the raw end of the deal salary-cap wise!!

Heck, I am remembering one pick we got, it could have been two. But honestly, the Phoenix Suns, perenially desperate for a center, want to trade you a center THEY say is good. Heck, even I KNOW not to buy that bridge!!!

 

[Travis Bickle]

What if NY offered up T. Knight, Harrington, and Clarence Weatherspoon (contract same length as Penny's, but about 8 mill. per year less)? I would think the Knicks would want us to take back at least one bad contract.

 

[elindholm]

I would think Layden could get a better player than Penny for expiring or soon-to-be-expiring contracts (i.e., Jalen Rose, Antonio Davis, maybe Brian Grant).

Rumor is that they want a shooting guard, so that rules out Davis and Grant. But I agree Rose is a possibility. The thing is, I don't know that the Bulls are so desperate to move out salary that they'd give up Rose for no talent. Not too many teams are as desperate as Phoenix is to reduce payroll. If the Knicks want to add talent without giving any up, Phoenix is a good partner.

What if NY offered up T. Knight, Harrington, and Clarence Weatherspoon

The Suns would probably go for that, although I imagine they'd be a lot more reluctant to include the draft pick. They save less money in each of the next three years compared to the other deal. Still, Weatherspoon is large enough to play center for them, so that's an added bonus. And he's really not a bad player, especially for a backup.

 

[hcsilla]

Originally posted by elindholm
[What if NY offered up T. Knight, Harrington, and Clarence Weatherspoon

The Suns would probably go for that, although I imagine they'd be a lot more reluctant to include the draft pick.

I agree moreover I do think that this is a more realistic proposal than the original one which BTW doesn't work technically (unless the pick is CLE's) since the Suns already owe a future 1st to SAS so PHO could stay without 1st rounders in future consecutive years.

Still, Weatherspoon is large enough to play center for them, so that's an added bonus. And he's really not a bad player, especially for a backup. [/B]

Lol and yes, Weatherspoon would be a nice, tough, undersized backup PF.
He is the less mobile and better rebounding version of Bo Outlaw plus a mid-range J.

 

[Chaplin]

I don't know, I cringe whenever I hear any trade proposal involving the Knicks. Financially, it sounds like a slam dunk, but basketball-wise, if it doesn't include Kurt Thomas, then it probably is a bad trade for us.

 

[slinslin]

We would have to cut some players with guaranteed contracts after that unless we get Ward and can buy at least him out of his contract.

 

[elindholm]

We would have to cut some players with guaranteed contracts after that

Yes, I already made this point. Cutting guaranteed players who won't contribute anyway is not a big loss.

 

[SirStefan32]

Originally posted by Chaplin
I don't know, I cringe whenever I hear any trade proposal involving the Knicks. Financially, it sounds like a slam dunk, but basketball-wise, if it doesn't include Kurt Thomas, then it probably is a bad trade for us.

I agree with that.

 

[elindholm]

I completely agree that it would be a bad trade "basketball-wise," at least for this year. Hardaway will contribute more than those three players put together, even if Weatherspoon is substituted in. The question is whether the financial benefits would enable the Colangelos to improve the team down the road. I think they would. It is a longer-term view.

 

[SirStefan32]

There is no question about that. This trade would be excellent in the long run.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Originally posted by SirStefan32
There is no question about that. This trade would be excellent in the long run.

Which is what the Suns are interested in right now. The present is not the big issue for the Suns, its the future.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

I am still in no hurry to see Hardaway traded.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by JCSunsfan
Which is what the Suns are interested in right now. The present is not the big issue for the Suns, its the future.

The real question is, how far into the future are they looking? IMO, a championship sooner rather than later would be great. But if we're talking about being contenders in 3 years, that's fine too, but you all know that next year at this time we'll still be talking about being contenders in 3 years. In 3 years we'll be talking about how we'll be contenders in 3 years. There's gotta be a point where you have to have a solid plan and stick to it.

 

[SirStefan32]

Originally posted by Chris_Sanders
I am still in no hurry to see Hardaway traded.

And that's a very good point Chris. I am not too crazy about trading Penny. He is more valuable to this team than people give him credit for.

 

[elindholm]

In 3 years we'll be talking about how we'll be contenders in 3 years. There's gotta be a point where you have to have a solid plan and stick to it.

This is true.

In my opinion, the Suns will not be contenders until either

(a) they start spending more money, or
(b) they are getting good value from each player on a big contract.

We don't expect to see (a) any time soon. So that leaves (b), which cannot happen until Hardaway is gone. If the team can afford only $55 million worth of talent (or whatever the number is), then that figure has to be distributed very carefully among players who are worth it. Right now, with Gugliotta and Hardaway taking up 40% of that amount, it's impossible for the Suns to be competitive -- even with the "bonus value" of Stoudemire contributing at a higher level than his contract.

So in my view, the Suns' serious pursuit of a title begins once they clear out the dead weight contracts. And the sooner they can do that, the better.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Originally posted by Chaplin
The real question is, how far into the future are they looking? IMO, a championship sooner rather than later would be great. But if we're talking about being contenders in 3 years, that's fine too, but you all know that next year at this time we'll still be talking about being contenders in 3 years. In 3 years we'll be talking about how we'll be contenders in 3 years. There's gotta be a point where you have to have a solid plan and stick to it.

That is a fair statement. Sometimes your window of opportunity sneaks up on you before you expect it. The 75-76 Suns thought they were several years away, then ended up in the finals. JC said he thought he'd get back soon, but it didn't happen again until 93.

An injury here or there in the league and THIS YEAR might be our best shot.

An injury or two on the team and our hopes of the future might go down the drain (witness the Miami Heat of a few years ago).

 

[Joe Mama]

The Phoenix Suns may be desperate to shed salary. They realize that they are not going to contend for the championship this season. However they also do not want to chase off a growing fan base by following a surprisingly good year with a flop because they traded off their important role players for crap.

Joe Mama

 

[jbeecham]

I think the role players were mediocre at best last year. I was impressed with Voshkul and at times JJ, but that was about it. Bo did bring a lot of hustle and energy to the team, but he also gave up lots of easy baskets with his frantic defense and was pretty much a complete liability on offense. Our bench scoring was probably one of the lowest in the league.

The main thing I worry about is chemistry with the new guys. Other than that, I think our bench is better this year. We are weak at C & possibly backup PF (depending on how well Zarko and Googs play), but we were weak in these areas last year too. We are much stronger in backup PG than we have been in years and I think our SG/SF rotation should be pretty good also.

Our biggest weakness is that we have 1 center on our team that can play in Voshkul. Trybanski, Archibald, Scott Williams, and Koturovic probably shouldn't be on NBA rosters. I guess I should reserve judgement on these guys until they actually get enough minutes to contribute, but I think it's going to be hard to find a diamond in the rough with these guys. Hell, I'd settle for a pretty good lump of coal (aka. serviceable backup).

 

[capologist]

Originally posted by Yuma
Remember the Knicks ARE the team who took that Australian STIFF (sorry, I can't remember his name), gave us a center who ended up being better, a DRAFT PICK AND MONEY, too!! To date, I think that was the worst trade I have EVER seen a team make!!

That was a part of a four-team deal in which the Knicks got future first-round picks from Seattle and the Lakers, as well as a bunch of players. Just on picks, they actually came out ahead in the deal, and they didn’t give up anybody they were going to miss. Due to salary cap considerations, the deal could not have happened without our participation; they had to send us a pick and cash in order to get the two other first-round picks and various players.

Perhaps not the greatest deal ever made, but not that bad for New York. As trades go, I can certainly think of worse ones — for example, the one that brought the Aussie stiff to Phoenix in the first place.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

If the pre season JJ is for real, it wouldnt hurt nearly as bad as I initially thought. IMO the reason penny was so invaluable last year was without him there was no consistancy at the 2g. He wan't flashy, but we knew what would happen every game. A steal here, a TO there, and decent shooting.

Plus, we could resign Demarr