Too harsh or true valuation?

[Skkorpion]

http://arizonasportsfans.com/storypage.php?Story_ID=594&Category=cardinals

 

[abomb]

Sounds fair to me, but should include the transfer of power from Daddy B to Baby B.

A-Bomb

 

[vince56]

Kinda a low blow there to VandenBosch, but other than that, I think you hit the nail on the head.

 

[Pariah]

Didn't Sam Wyche coach a Bengals team to the Superbowl that almost beat the 9ers? How could he be lumped in with the worst in history?

But yeah, sadly, McGinnis and Tobin could be the worst 1-2 punch in history.

 

[bratwurst]

I'll definitely give you that the drafting was terrible with a couple notable exceptions, one being Plummer, the other Tillman, maybe several others are decent as well. But for the amount of picks, they definitely took incompentence to another level.

But for all his problems and issues, Tobin still did inherit the Buddy Ryan fiasco and somehow reversed the slide and took the team to the playoffs and a postseason win for the first time in 50 years. Yes he didn't do crapola after that, but if just for that one end of season run, he doesn't deserve to be named as one of the worst coaches in history.

 

[CardinalLaw]

Nice Read.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

McGinnis was easily worse than Tobin who at least has a playoff victory on his resume. But both of their drafting was just as perversely pathetic. I really can't fathom how there are still some on this board that defend Mac's drafting. That list of garbage "talent" selected by this team in the first four rounds made me want to puke.

 

[MadCardDisease]

Tobin did manage to win the only playoff game for the Cardinals since they moved to the valley. That's got to be worth something.

 

[Stout]

Didn't Sam Wyche coach a Bengals team to the Superbowl that almost beat the 9ers? How could he be lumped in with the worst in history?

Exactly. WAY off base on that one.

 

[Scott MS]

Perhaps the worst coaches, but NFL teams aren't all about the coaches. There are GMs and owners and others who help shape the team. Tobin and McGinnis weren't that great -- but neither was the rest of what they had to work with. I'm not sure if you can lay all the blame on these two men, alone.

We will never know.

 

[BACH]

A bit harsh and a bit too easy IMO...

Tobin and McGinnis didn't exactly have an efficient front-office or an owner willing to spent money like he is today.

Were they terrible HCs? Yes, I think they were. Both are classic examples of good Coordinator - Terrible Head-Coach IMO. But it's just too easy to place all blame on them.

 

[ActingWild]

Buddy Ryan's tenure with the team was much worse. I remember the Steelers were pretty much doubled over with laughter when they played our offense. Run, run, run, punt. Run, run, run, punt.

Cap hell, Cutting Ricky Proehle for dropping a pass and all the nepotism.

Tobin and McGinnis can at least say they didn't screw up the front office as well. Buddy doesn't get that slack.

All these memories of Buddy I'm sure will make for some terrible nightmares tonight.

 

[vince56]

Buddy Ryan's tenure with the team was much worse. I remember the Steelers were pretty much doubled over with laughter when they played our offense. Run, run, run, punt. Run, run, run, punt.

That's odd, considering we beat them.

 

[JeffGollin]

No need to sit in judgment. The players were what they were, and the teams they played on were the way they were. The coaches' records stand for themselves.

I guess it would be productive to dissect the causes (although, so long as Dennis & staff are doing the right things, why bring up negative stuff - it might be catching).

The 5 things I'd want to scrutinize closest are (1) Management Tone, (2) Player Selection, (3) Player Development, (4) Game Preparation and (5) Medical Staff.

Til recently, the team had been a bit deficient in such areas as marketing & public outreach, being innovative in compensation techniques, public relations.

They were either unaggressive or too impulse-ridden in the free agent market - and always, it seemed, at the wrong time. I'm not going to question most drafting decisions, because in most instances (except maybe the Pace/Johnson for Suggs move) I agreed with those decisions at the time. But I don't think we got as much value for our pick. The drafting philosophy of Tobin and Mac was: "Target certain players and draft them one round too early to make certain we'd get them." This, in turn, meant that, value-wise, we were getting one round less bang for each buck. And, oh yeah, for years, it always seemed as if we'd part company with a decent player and get less compensation back than we should have.

The biggest deficiency of all, I think, was in not developing players quickly enough or to full potential. You wouldn't see a player improve between Game #1 and Game #16 of any season.

Game prep was problematic - particularly early in each season. Game after game, you'd have the feeling that the offense was "wandering around out there" or the defense was too often "victimized."

I include the medical personnel solely because there has to be accountability at all levels. It just seemed to me that a higher percentage of our players were going down during most seasons - and that a higher percentage of those injuries resulted in careers ending. Maybe it was bad luck. Maybe we brought in porecelain players. But all I know is that the medical outcomes (at least perceptually) weren't what you'd expect.

Other than that, there's not much to question.

 

[SunCityCarl]

Tobin did manage to win the only playoff game for the Cardinals since they moved to the valley. That's got to be worth something.

I gotta say that these 2 coaches & the general manager during this time may have not been on the same page but Vince Tobin should be a permanent fixture in the new stadium. Just because he did one thing this franchise hadn't done in a 1/2 century. Though I agree with Jeff G's assessment it wasn't just "bad" coaching - remember after th '98 campaign Lomas Brown, Larry Centers & Jamir Miller were allowed to just walk away...

 

[RedViper]

Theres a lot of failure you can hang on those two but to say they are the worst coaches in NFL history is kind of shrill and hysterical. For crissakes Tobin won a playoff game on the road during his regime. Mac's best year was a modest 7 win season in O1. I'm not an NFL historian but I'm pretty sure there are coaches he didn't come near either one of those acheivements.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Both are classic examples of good Coordinator - Terrible Head-Coach IMO.

I could see logic behind that point when talking about Tobin, but McGinnis during his four year tenure as coordinator never had the Cardinals defense ranked any higher than the 24th best unit in the NFL.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

http://arizonasportsfans.com/storypage.php?Story_ID=594&Category=cardinals

I'm sick and tired of these references to the CFL from writers who have never seen the game played north of the 49th.

Everyrthing I've seen of Wendall Bryant tells me that it wouldn't tale more than a couple of weeks, let alone two plus years - to cut him in the CFL.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I could see logic behind that point when talking about Tobin, but McGinnis during his four year tenure as coordinator never had the Cardinals defense ranked any higher than the 24th best unit in the NFL.

But think about the passion, and the one heartbeat!!!

 

[Syracusecards]

so, just to be clear, you didn't like them as coaches?...Tell us how you really feel...

I have to agree with all of it though. The only thing I can say is that Mr B hired them and allowed them to stay as long as they did, so the finger should really be pointed at him.

 

[efferman]

I think that the assessment is pretty harsh. Heck, I am not even sure that these two were even the worst coaches in Cardinal history, although they are in the team picture. There is a lot of competition. Surely we all can remember the great success story of Joe Bugel. He had a four season record of 20 - 44, for a sterling .313 winning percentage. At least I have to give Tobin high marks for winning the only playoff game that the Cards have won in my lifetime! (I'm 45)
I've been lurking here for a few years and finally decided to toss my 2 cents in. I guess I'm old enough to remember that the Cards have had a lot of bad coaches and teams. When they beat the Cowboys in that playoff game, it was the best feeling that I have had for a long time (at least in a sports-related way).
Anyway, I enjoy the thoughts that I see here every day, even though I don't always agree. Looking forward to a better future, and making some noise this year. Talk to you all soon.

 

[SunCityCarl]

Welcome aboard Mr. E all of the folks here are pretty friendly & as always the new guy buys so I'd like some St.Louis BBQ spare ribs & a pitcher of Coors Light. LOL

 

[ajcardfan]

Until somebody else at least MAKES the playoffs, Tobin is the best coach in Arizona Cardinals history. I'm more into the bottom line. I like Green's team better on paper, but he hasn't matched McGinnis' best season yet either. I mean, if we go 5-11 this year how will this article sound then?

As for the drafts, we got good grades basically every year those two drafted. This tells me two things: 1. The draft is a crapshoot, I don't care who's ranking or picking the players. 2. We are all much smarter in hindsight. In fact, I remember we used to have a pretty good draft guru on this site, by the name of Ed B, who liked most of those drafts himself. In particluar, he liked the Wendell Bryant pick. Since he was wrong, does that make him the "worst draftnik" in history?

 

[jefftheshark]

Until somebody else at least MAKES the playoffs, Tobin is the best coach in Arizona Cardinals history. I'm more into the bottom line. I like Green's team better on paper, but he hasn't matched McGinnis' best season yet either. I mean, if we go 5-11 this year how will this article sound then?

As for the drafts, we got good grades basically every year those two drafted. This tells me two things: 1. The draft is a crapshoot, I don't care who's ranking or picking the players. 2. We are all much smarter in hindsight. In fact, I remember we used to have a pretty good draft guru on this site, by the name of Ed B, who liked most of those drafts himself. In particluar, he liked the Wendell Bryant pick. Since he was wrong, does that make him the "worst draftnik" in history?

I think in Ed B's defense that the players drafted during the two coaches tenure never reached their potential due to poor assistants selected by both. Mean Joe Green was as responsible for Wendall Bryant's becoming a bust as Wendall was, but since Mac was loyal to a fault with his assistants, the responsibility for their failure rests with him.

The Shark

 

[ajcardfan]

I think in Ed B's defense that the players drafted during the two coaches tenure never reached their potential due to poor assistants selected by both. Mean Joe Green was as responsible for Wendall Bryant's becoming a bust as Wendall was, but since Mac was loyal to a fault with his assistants, the responsibility for their failure rests with him.

The Shark

Oh, I agree, there is a whole lotta blame to be spread for the Wendell Bryant disaster. The front office has a big share for holding to an archaic injury waiver policy that he sat out of minicamps over. That led to a nasty holdout because it became more important that they "win" on the contract than developing a player. Then, the next season, they turn around and change the waiver policy and the way they do rookie contracts.

Bryant gets in late, he practices at both DT and DE. Next year, he bulks up for DT, plays the best he ever did, but sprains an ankle. When he comes back, they put him at DE. Really, it was almost laughable the way he got moved around his first two years. Then, at that point, he has all of his "issues". So, there was blame for Wendell too.