Trade? Not now

[mark1]

Now that Kim got hurt in Tucson last night, their options are more limited. Everything that could go wrong for a team this year has gone wrong. They can't even keep Kim healthy enough to trade him.
This team with babe ruth in right, brooks robinson at third and lou gehrig at first in their prime, still wouldn't reach the world series. This team needs to hang onto their prospects and build for the future. I would bring up Chad Tracy, and let him get his feet wet on the major league level. Williams and Wohack need to sit on their collective a$$'s and let the kids take over. They also need to bring John Patterson up. Since he has started throwing his changeup, he has pitched very well in Tucson. Patterson and Tracy are the future of this team, bring them up now!

 

[RLakin]

I agree. No more Albie Lopez/Elmer Dessens deals. Keep the youth intact. Trade Dessens, the guy really is as Bob Brenly says " Armando Reynoso with better stuff." We just had no idea how little that difference was.

 

[AZZenny]

I half-kiddingly suggested we all wear T-shirts saying "Pay 'em - don't play 'em." But I believe that is the necessary answer. Just consider what they owe Matty and Tony (and maybe a couple others) as an advance on the deferred salaries, and cut them loose. Bring up Hammock, Tracy, and if he's got it under control, Patterson, and do it soon. If I'm not going to see fundamentally sound baseball, at least let it be because I'm watching enthusiastic young players develop their skills and expertise, not because I'm watching cranky aging players in decline.

And Dessens was either the mistake everyone except Joe * Jr saw coming, or else there is a curse in being named our third starter. Like the 13th floor in a building. So in the future, we can have starters 1, 1A, 2, 4, 5.

 

[RLakin]

It's the former of your suggestions about Dessens. People aren't stupid. That's the thing I really resent about some of the organizations around here. They seem to think that they have an entitlement of truth, even when the facts aren't on their side. Anybody that looked at Dessens career stats knew that 2002 was his career year, and even so, his stats still weren't that impressive. The Durazo deal was a bad one. Plain and simple. It was bad then, and it still is now. Elmer Dessens has #4 or #5 stuff on a good baseball team and w/ this staff he's the 6th (or 7th) best pitcher. A little better than Albie Lopez and Armando Reynoso but still not even close to a #3. Not that they even need one w/ Webb, Kim, and Batista. And I'm not even including Patterson, who could be better than Dessens if he gets it together.

And if you make that shirt, put in an order for me.

 

[sly fly]

I give this team 20 games in it's current situation. If no improvement:

- I trade Schilling for some pop at 3rd, and future arms.

- Call up Chad Tracy. Sit Matty Williams.

- Call up Luis Terrero. Sit Steve Finley.

- Insert Alex Cintron permanently at SS. Package Womack to a desperate fringe team looking for speed.

- Let Danny Bautista work himself back into a threat at the plate. I'm not sure why everybody wants to dump him? This guy was possibly their best player on the rise before his shoulder injury.

Rotation to ride out:

RJ - he retires after next year.
Webb - an obvious keeper.
BK - still a work in progress as a starter.
Batista - inning eater
Dessens - better pick it up or he's gone.

??John Patterson - if he'd only be more consistent. The Dbacks have been scrambling with their rotation ever since they decided to insert Villareal as the starter. Insert in Dessens spot possibly.

 

[fielder\'s choice]

Well, enough with the "its early still, lots of baseball left to play" excuses. IMHO, we seen enough games over almost two months to determine the obvious:

(1) Matt Williams cannot hit right handed pitching effectively any more, the outside slider kills him from righties - the batting average differential cannot be ignored any longer. Hammock can play 3B, is a lefty hitter (I think) and should be brought up to platoon w/ Matty (ie., Matty starts against lefties, Hammock vs. righties). With Hammock, like Counsell, I don't think we lose as much defensively as with Baerga. Additionally, Baerga is much more valuable in a bench/pinch hit role and Hammock can fill in at many more positions. IMHO, Chad Tracy is the 3B of the future, in first year at AAA, and is not yet ready to be pushed up to this level.

(2) Tony Womack should be waived and/or sent down to Tucson to make room for Hammock. Yes, I am well aware of Tony's "clutch" hits during the playoff and Series run in 2001 (TWO YEARS AGO, FOLKS!), his historic "slow starts" as the D'back announcers are fond of pointing out, and his $6 million salary for this year. I've been watching Tony for over 4 seasons now and I don't see improvement. He is not better than Counsell, Cintron, Hammock, or some of the other players that have been slotted behind him on the depth chart over the years. After the Series, the D'backs should have traded him while he had some value but they didn't and now they are stuck with his $6 million salary. Tough - if the D'backs want to put a team on the field that has the best chance to win, Tony needs to go to make room for younger, better players on the roster.

(3) Whoever said Dessens was "Armando Reynoso with better stuff [ie., a working sinker] was right on the money. Hope and pray that Elmer Dessens can put a couple of good, quality starts to increase his trade value during Bautista's suspension and Kim gets healthy in the interim. Then dump him at or after the All Star Break for some prospects and six pack of beer. When Johnson, Kim, and Bautista all get back, IMHO the rotation should be Schilling, Johnson, Webb, Bautista, and Kim with Patterson (only if its true that he has regained his confidence and a changeup in Tucson) mixed in.

(4) Danny Bautista has not done the job in RF. Either he, David Dellucci, or Quentin McCracken need to step up to claim the RF job on a permanent basis. If his lineups are any indication, Brenly realizes this. If this position is still unsettled at the All Star Break, the D'backs need to bring up Terrero, Devore, or one of the other kids at the minors to audition for the spot. Trading for this position is a possibility, but money, availability, and age are factors in any scenarios.

 

[RLakin]

Originally posted by sly fly
I give this team 20 games in it's current situation. If no improvement:

- I trade Schilling for some pop at 3rd, and future arms.

- Call up Chad Tracy. Sit Matty Williams.

- Call up Luis Terrero. Sit Steve Finley.

- Insert Alex Cintron permanently at SS. Package Womack to a desperate fringe team looking for speed.

- Let Danny Bautista work himself back into a threat at the plate. I'm not sure why everybody wants to dump him? This guy was possibly their best player on the rise before his shoulder injury.

Rotation to ride out:

RJ - he retires after next year.
Webb - an obvious keeper.
BK - still a work in progress as a starter.
Batista - inning eater
Dessens - better pick it up or he's gone.

??John Patterson - if he'd only be more consistent. The Dbacks have been scrambling with their rotation ever since they decided to insert Villareal as the starter. Insert in Dessens spot possibly.

Bautista has been in the league since 93'. It's pretty safe to say that he's not "on the rise" nor a 30 HR type. I would have been fine with him in center, but you need more power production out of RF.
With Finley, he’s here for another year. That’s why I really wonder if this organization has learned anything from Bell and Williams. You can’t keep locking up money in older players. Especially given the fact that there are several players in the minor league system that deserve a look.
Williams needs to sit, but won’t. Lyle Overbay needs to play everyday, but won’t. Chad Tracy needs to get called up, but won’t.
Strap yourself in for a long season. The fact of the matter is that D-Backs need to stop pretending and make up their mind about this season. They either are going to trade for a hitter and try to make this season something or trade Schilling and start rebuilding for the future. Instead, it seems like they are content with mediocrity with the hope that this team will suddenly become something that we have not seen in just over 1 and 1/2 months of baseball.

 

[sly fly]

Bautista has been in the league since 93'. It's pretty safe to say that he's not "on the rise" nor a 30 HR type. I would have been fine with him in center, but you need more power production out of RF.

Yes, he was on the rise before his injury. Some ballplayers don't hit their prime, nor fully mature until later in their career. Bautista seems to be that type of player.

No, he hasn't torn the cover off the ball... but this guy was out of action all last year. Are you ready to give up on him already? After a 1/4 of the season? He's not going to hit 30 HR's, but he will hit over .300, once he regains his power and consistency.

Your other points are well taken, especially about Finley.

However, I'm not sure the Dbacks "are content with mediocrity". Name a year in which they were content with mediocrity. They've gone out and tried to improve the team each year. Some trades have worked, and some have been suspect (atrocious: Albie Lopez).

Yes, it may be a long year. But, this is an important year. It may be time to see what exactly the DBacks have in some of their young bats and arms.

I would rather follow a team of hungry, young players... then slosh through the summer with some malcontent, free-agency driven veterans.

P.S. This team has earned a free pass. World Series titles tend to allow that.

 

[fielder\'s choice]

Free pass for THIS season, my a$$! Last season's rollercoaster ride and playoff debacle used up any free ride notion, IMHO. This is the year they were to make another run. Yes, injuries have played a role again, but as we all seem to agree in this post, improvements can be made and other options explored before the season is out.

The D'backs weren't afraid to sit Bell or Mike Morgan last year, although with albeit mysterious injuries, why not with Williams and Womack this year. Both have had leg problems in the past, so nagging hamstring injuries would not be impossible to believe.

As far as Finley goes, I see your point sly fly. But other than Gonzo, Finley appears to be the only other power hitter, long ball threat in the lineup - in a lineup that desperate needs that type of hitter. Finley has always been streaky anyway and, other than last night's debacle, is a solid CF defensively. To me, the production out of RF is still more of a problem (nothing ever changes, RF has always been a problem for this team) at this point.

 

[sly fly]

fielders/choice,

Let's see what they do before we run them out of town. We know that Trader Joe is not going to stand pat.

I'm sure they are laying out all scenarios.

 

[RLakin]

Originally posted by sly fly
fielders/choice,

Let's see what they do before we run them out of town. We know that Trader Joe is not going to stand pat.

I'm sure they are laying out all scenarios.

C'mon nobody is running anybody out of town. World Series championships are rare , and the D-Backs have an equally rare opportunity w/ Johnson and Schilling to win another one. Is it wrong for honest fans to be angry about the D-Backs not maximizing a winning formula.
Time is running out, and the D-Backs need to make a decision about this year. So far, all I've been hearing is stuff from Garagiola and Brenly about how the current of roster of hitters is better than this. That may be true, but they're still not championship caliber. Another bat is needed, and thus far, the D-Backs insist that one won't be added given their state of economics. If they can't then that's fine, but then quit pretending to be contenders and start the youth movement right now.

 

[Forrestham]

Originally posted by RLakin
C'mon nobody is running anybody out of town. World Series championships are rare , and the D-Backs have an equally rare opportunity w/ Johnson and Schilling to win another one. Is it wrong for honest fans to be angry about the D-Backs not maximizing a winning formula.
Time is running out, and the D-Backs need to make a decision about this year. So far, all I've been hearing is stuff from Garagiola and Brenly about how the current of roster of hitters is better than this. That may be true, but they're still not championship caliber. Another bat is needed, and thus far, the D-Backs insist that one won't be added given their state of economics. If they can't then that's fine, but then quit pretending to be contenders and start the youth movement right now.

Good post Rlakin. Just like the Suns did they need to make a decision on their future. They can't have it both ways. IF Overbay and Cintron are the future, they need to paly every day and not be jerked in and out of the lineup. If the brass feels we have a shot this year then a trade for a bat needs to be doen. Either way Williams needs to go to the bench

 

[AZZenny]

Hammock is a righty. So just jettison Matty.
I think - or maybe I just hope - that when JC gets back from his annual long European vacation soon, he will be the 800-lb gorilla with a scalpel. He was fed up with Williams last year. He knew we needed power bats. He somewhat irritably said "I was assured coming out of ST this was the best team yet. This start comes as a surprise." - As a businessman, he doesn't like self-congratulatory delusions - heck, 75% of the common FANS knew this wasn't "the strongest team yet" by a long shot. How could the GM and manager fool themselves so? I think HE may give a couple more weeks at most, and then, as he has shown repeatedly, loyalty is important, but it only goes so far - and when its decision-time, he makes decisive cuts and doesn't look back.

His own stated commitment is to a younger team, from within our organization to the extent possible - the question is merely when. Now - personally, I think Curt will stay for several reasons (only a few teams can afford him in terms of trade and salary; he has a no-trade and will use it; JC will not deal with a couple teams; Curt is a great mentor and there is the historic aspect of RJ/Curt to consider), but Mantei and possibly BK will go. JC will likely opt for the energy of youth to bring in fannies, along with our more primo and effective veterans, and maybe, maybe he'll just eat a couple bloated salaries to accomplish the goal.

 

[BC867]

As disappointing as our season is, we're just a few moves away from another World Championship. That's what I believe!

(1) Bring back Robby Hammock to back up Barajas, and package Moeller and Kim (and perhaps a throw-in) for a decent Cleanup hitter (at either RF or 3B).

(2) For the time being, realize that Cintron .293 (Wasn't he brought up to play SS?) and Baerga .316 (until Counsell returns) would help the club more at SS and 3B than W-.217 and W-.235?

---- By the way, Williams' 4 errors "lead" the team and Womack's 3 are tied with Moeller for 2nd worst. (When Matty made an error a few games ago, the announcer said, "He should have had a 2nd, and could have had a 3rd, for the game.")

(3) Reallign Robin Yount, Dwayne Murphy, and Eddie Rodriguez on our Coaching staff.

Robin Yount was a hitting legend. He is best suited to be Hitting Coach, not an ornament at 1B.

Dwayne Murphy was, I believe, a pretty good baserunner. Use him as 3B coach. He's better suited for it than Rodriguez

And Eddie Rodriguez, who has had so many problems coaching 3B, belongs back at 1B. (When Danny Bautista disregarded his running sign some time ago, it showed a lack of respect for his judgement.)

Johnson, Schilling, and Webb can win us a World Series. But first, the hitters and Coaches have to get us there!

 

[Smolder]

oh how quickly you forget...

johnson and schilling are the diamondbacks. they're the reason fans like me root for the team. and now you want to trade schill? right...the best thing that ever happened to the dbacks and you wanna break it up. just coz of some injuries and stuff. i hope jc agrees with me. i wouldn't move curt for anyone. and i mean anyone. ditto for rj. if not for their wins, but if only to solidify the legend of "johnson and schilling, the diamondbacks aces" i sure as heck don't want us to wind up a few years down the road like boston, really bitter that the pitcher who used to carry the team banner is pitching living daylights out of us.

schill is a great one, guys. i hope you realize that. he helps us just by being here. and i don't mean that in a matbatross or jay bell or mark grace sense. schill is part of the dbacks legend. let's keep him, if only to have a tradition of pitching excellence to build on. remember how they kept on harping about yankee mystique and aura in the world series? schill (and johnson) will be our mystique and aura when the time comes...

and don't get me started about curt's production. hell, the guy just had two shutout games. what more do you want?

 

[BC867]

Originally posted by Smolder
oh how quickly you forget...

johnson and schilling are the diamondbacks. they're the reason fans like me root for the team. and now you want to trade schill?

I assume you were reacting to slyfly's post. I agree with you, Smolder!

The idea is to add to our three superstars -- Johnson, Schilling, and Gonzo . . . and keep the window of opportunity open.

And with guys like Webb and, hopefully, Patterson, plus our Tucson infield talent, we'll be ready to open another window when this one closes in a few years.

 

[Skkorpion]

I heard Jerry Colangelo on the radio during spring training elaborate on how NEXT year would be the big transition year between being an ageing team and a younger team.

The only thing keeping the changes at bay this year is the worry about falling attendance and money woes. I get the impression that Jerry thinks if he goes fully into the youth movement this year by benching Williams and Womack and trading Schilling, that BOB will empty out of patrons. Maybe he's right.

 

[BOB_Man24]

They wont trade Schilling. Not now, not next year...Unless we can get Barry Zito, which we cant....he wont be traded.

 

[Skkorpion]

Originally posted by BC867
I assume you were reacting to slyfly's post. I agree with you, Smolder!

The idea is to add to our three superstars -- Johnson, Schilling, and Gonzo . . . and keep the window of opportunity open.

And with guys like Webb and, hopefully, Patterson, plus our Tucson infield talent, we'll be ready to open another window when this one closes in a few years.

This window is already closed. And Gonzo is a good player but no superstar. Like it or not, rebuilding is upon us and it might not be prettty.

 

[AZZenny]

well it can't be much uglier. I've been surprised that most of the folks I go with to BOB agree we'd prefer to be watching some developing youth, if we're not going to start contending real soon.

 

[BC867]

Originally posted by Skkorpion
This window is already closed. And Gonzo is a good player but no superstar. Like it or not, rebuilding is upon us and it might not be prettty.

OK, D'backs fans. How many feel that the window is CLOSED?

With a surplus of Catchers and Starting Pitchers to trade for a Cleanup hitter, one trade by Joe, Jr., and we're there.

Would you want to bat against Johnson, Schilling, and Webb starting 6 of 7 games in a post-season series?

CLOSING but not CLOSED. It's up to management!

 

[mark1]

This team most definately needs a cleanup hitter, I don't think anybody would argue with that. My concern is who they have to give up to get one. The minor league talent we have developed is good, and I don't want the D-Backs to throw away their future. It's my opinion that even if the D-Backs would go out and get somebody like Richie Sexson or Lowell, they still won't make the playoffs. Of course I hope I'm wrong, and they make this season a memorable one.

 

[Smolder]

so you'd rather dump schill coz you think more fans would come if we had younger pitchers? no offense, but are you guys serious about this? you mean to tell me, i'm supposed to be excited over seeing "john patterson, star of AAA Tucson," over Curt Schilling, a guy who'd probably end up in the hall of fame? egad!

i'm a fan dude. you lose people like me when you ditch people like schilling. they're the reason i'm here in the first place, i came to see them. what, you guys think i love the dbacks coz i love JC's mug? come on! we're there. we just need offensive help.

i couldn't agree more that we need to ditch womack, matbatross, elmer phudd and mark grace (well, at least keep him in the bench or turn him into a batting coach, whatever, he's still a good clubhouse presence).

we're right in this people. curt's gonna carry us, until we get the offensive help we've been dying for. btw, bautista's been hitting 3/4 or so last night.

 

[Smolder]

*ahem*

By BOB BAUM, AP Sports Writer
May 24, 2003

AP - May 24, 12:44 am EDT
More Photos


PHOENIX (AP) -- The right-handed hitter the Arizona Diamondbacks sorely need is coming alive.

Danny Bautista hit a tiebreaking three-run homer in the eighth inning for his first longball in more than a year as the Diamondbacks handed the San Diego Padres their ninth consecutive loss, 5-3 Friday night.

Bautista also had a pair of singles, one driving in a run, for the second four RBI-game of his career and first since 1993, to help the Diamondbacks beat the Padres for the eighth time in a row at home.

``I've been feeling my swing a few weeks,'' Bautista said. ``I know right now I'm hitting the ball harder than the month before. I'm feeling a lot better.''

Arizona manager Bob Brenly pitched batting practice and said Bautista seemed ready for a big game.

``Danny Bautista had one of the best rounds of batting practice I've ever witnessed,'' Brenly said, ``and we were all just keeping our fingers crossed it would carry over into the ballgame. I thought Danny swung the bat tonight as well as he has all year.''

ADVERTISEMENT


Bautista, who was lost for the season almost exactly one year ago -- May 22 -- with a dislocated shoulder, had not homered since May 3, 2002, a span of 152 at bats.

from
here

 

[Skkorpion]

Originally posted by Smolder
so you'd rather dump schill coz you think more fans would come if we had younger pitchers? no offense, but are you guys serious about this? you mean to tell me, i'm supposed to be excited over seeing "john patterson, star of AAA Tucson," over Curt Schilling, a guy who'd probably end up in the hall of fame? egad!

i'm a fan dude. you lose people like me when you ditch people like schilling. they're the reason i'm here in the first place, i came to see them. what, you guys think i love the dbacks coz i love JC's mug? come on! we're there. we just need offensive help.

i couldn't agree more that we need to ditch womack, matbatross, elmer phudd and mark grace (well, at least keep him in the bench or turn him into a batting coach, whatever, he's still a good clubhouse presence).

we're right in this people. curt's gonna carry us, until we get the offensive help we've been dying for. btw, bautista's been hitting 3/4 or so last night.

The point is that trading Schilling could make us better by bringing in multiple young starters.

I have nothing against Schilling. He's just our most marketable player, so lets get something good for him.

And, by the way, with Schilling on the mound last night, we got hammered by the worst team in basball. Personally, watching us get two hits in 9 innings won't get me to BOB, regardless of which pitcher goes for us.