Two-Minute Drill: Coaching Search

Mitch

Crawled Through 5 FB Fields
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Posts
13,405
Reaction score
2,982
Location
Wrentham, MA
* Card-teasers: Peyton Manning, Andy Reid, Norv Turner...

* Reality is MB, as much as I and others like the guy, has no real sense of what it takes to land a big fish---he even nearly blew it with the biggest fish whom he already had on the line: Kurt Warner.

* Why even bother mentioning Andy Reid if you naively think that Reid would sign on the Cardinals terms. Reid was never going to come here without a GM in tow.

* it's like MB thinks he can make it look like he is going after some big names when, in reality, it's wishful thinking, poor understanding of what it would take---which winds up looking like window dressing.

* This is why we haven't signed a big name free agent either.

* MB calls his delays in the the GM and HC searches doing his "due diligence"---and there's some merit to that---however, in relation to how the Cardinals normally do business, it seems more like continued "due indecisiveness."

* These GM and HC searches are much like CKW's handling of QBs---stall and stall and stall---evaluate, evaluate, evaluate = last second decision.

* For once can't there be some strong conviction and no waffling?

* The key domino in the McCoy interest is the Chicago Bears---if the Bears make a HC signing, then the Cardinals have a decent chance---however, if the Bears wait for McCoy, the Cardinals have a slim to none chance with slim leaving town in a BMW.

* Not buying the "I did my due diligence and then learned that the right guy was in the building all along."

* Stringing Ray Horton along does two very troubling things: (1) it lessens the impact of his signing when it occurs after losing out on other candidates---because it looks very clear that Horton wasn't THE top candidate and now when others spurn the Cardinals suddenly "Horton was the guy all along"?---I mean look at what stringing out Kurt Warner did---it had a lot to do with Warner's exasperation and frustration with the franchise; it took a lot of wind out of his sails; (2) it means that if he doesn't get the job, and he is passed over for a candidate that has fewer years of experience that he is going to have to swallow his pride for a year and try to cope mentally with the fact that he was here through the toughest times and got very good results during the troubled times---and still, all to lose the job to a newbie OC candidate---what that means is Horton will be out of here as fast as he can in 2014. A raise likely won't appease him.

* Even the handling of the Todd Haley situation is a joke---a secret meeting---woo, wow, woo---there's no integrity in it. if Haley was the guy he should have been hired by now.

* I think Haley is an excellent candidate---largely because I trust in his abil-ties as an offensive mind, schemer and play-caller---but most of all because I know he would put Fitz back in the place where Fitz belongs...we all love Fitz, but Fitz has become larger than the team in many respects---and that has to stop. No one has motivated Fitz more in his time here than Todd Haley. Haley raises the bar for everyone on the roster. He raises the expectations---and he raises the level of accountability, which, imo, is exactly what the Cardinals need.

* Just the same, if not more, Ray Horton does that---he raises standards, expectations and levels of accountability. He does it in a more controlled style, which may be even better, who knows?

* All I know is Horton deserves the job. Plain and simple. And he deserves the job more than anyone else.

* Now that GM Steve Keim is in place---appoint Horton and open up an OC search that Keim, Licht and Horton can conduct in unison---there could be some nice surprise candidates---there could be some hidden gems---that part of it they all could take more time with.

* I love everything that Steve Keim had to say---which was more to the point and informative than anything we've heard in a Cardinals' press conference in ages---he said: he will always remember the NFC Championship confetti that was "sticking to my sweaty head" and the feeling he had watching the Cardinals lose 58-0 to the Seahawks and making sure "that never happens again."

* When asked about Kevin Kolb he was perfectly candid: he mentioned the progress, but the lingering concerns about Kolb's consistency and his durability.

* I got the clear sense that Keim knows exactly what needs to be done and that he and Jason Licht have the plans in place.

* Therefore, get Horton situated---engage in a full-scale OC search---then when the OC is in place, hire the rest of the offensive staff.
 
Last edited:

JeffGollin

ASFN Icon
Joined
May 14, 2002
Posts
20,472
Reaction score
3,056
Location
Holmdel, NJ
Or..maybe it's a lot simpler. Maybe they're just interviewing dudes when available, are doing their due diligence and when they're ready they'll hire the guy they like best.
 

Mulli

...
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 16, 2004
Posts
52,529
Reaction score
4,603
Location
Generational
In the last 5 years, there have been 33 head coach hires. Just 7 took place before January 11th, and two of those were interims.

No harm in stalling.
 

Russ Smith

The Original Whizzinator
Supporting Member
Joined
May 14, 2002
Posts
88,160
Reaction score
39,757
In the last 5 years, there have been 33 head coach hires. Just 7 took place before January 11th, and two of those were interims.

No harm in stalling.

And the main reason for that is most teams looking for a coach look at playoff teams and wait for those coaches to be available. Which means if McCoy is a legit candidate we are probably going to wait until Denver either loses, or wins it all.
 

overseascardfan

ASFN Addict
Joined
Apr 9, 2005
Posts
8,807
Reaction score
2,096
Location
Phoenix
I think ARZ should hire Arians. Look at what he did with an IND roster that has a lot of question marks. He will fix this offense, allow ARZ to keep Horton at DC and find his OC. Right now it doesn't matter who gets the coaching gig, there aren't really any good OC's left to bring in.
 

ASUCHRIS

ONE HEART BEAT!!!
Joined
Sep 2, 2002
Posts
16,664
Reaction score
14,994
Seems likely at this point that they're stalling for McCoy, which I'd be fine with as long as Horton remains DC.
 

kerouac9

Klowned by Keim
Joined
Feb 14, 2003
Posts
38,628
Reaction score
30,377
Location
Gilbert, AZ
Why are people freaking out right now? Is it going to matter in October or December or February whether the Cards signed a coach January 15th or February 4? Of course not.

Relax. Keim was the only GM candidate all along, unless Reid had legitimate interest. We had to wait to interview Morrocco Brown before we could announce the signing.

There are coaching candidates still in the playoffs that we'd like to talk to. R-E-L-A-X.
 

Buckybird

Hoist the Lombardi Trophy
Joined
Nov 11, 2002
Posts
25,296
Reaction score
6,310
Location
Dallas, TX
I agree Mitch, I'm afraid the Cards are going to blow it on the Horton front. :bang:

Obviously mgmt thinks the world of Ray because he's had 2 meetings with them. Is the only reason he's not the HC today, because of his OC choice? They should be open with Ray & tell him that IMO...don't let "your best candidate" get away because of one flaw! :bang:

IMO if Michael & Keim believe Horton is the "right guy", hire him!!! If he's not the new HC, why would he want to be in Az past next year & IMO would be playing out the string until greener pastures come his way.
 

az jam

ASFN Icon
Joined
Mar 6, 2004
Posts
12,996
Reaction score
5,240
Location
Scottsdale, AZ
I think they are going after McCoy and are willing to wait for him. Horton will be the DC as he is under contract for 2013.
 

Buckybird

Hoist the Lombardi Trophy
Joined
Nov 11, 2002
Posts
25,296
Reaction score
6,310
Location
Dallas, TX
I think they are going after McCoy and are willing to wait for him. Horton will be the DC as he is under contract for 2013.

How long have you waited to see the brand of defense in Az, your seeing today? Because IMO Horton likely shops his services elsewhere after 2013.
 

perivolaki

perivolaki
Joined
Apr 19, 2004
Posts
943
Reaction score
95
Location
Surprise
I agree Mitch, I'm afraid the Cards are going to blow it on the Horton front. :bang:

Obviously mgmt thinks the world of Ray because he's had 2 meetings with them. Is the only reason he's not the HC today, because of his OC choice? They should be open with Ray & tell him that IMO...don't let "your best candidate" get away because of one flaw! :bang:

IMO if Michael & Keim believe Horton is the "right guy", hire him!!! If he's not the new HC, why would he want to be in Az past next year & IMO would be playing out the string until greener pastures come his way.

Maybe they have decided to hire Horton and now they are just picking the brains of some of the brightest up-and-coming offensive minds in the league.

I've heard several veteran GMs say you shouldn't waste this opportunity to find out what good coaches say about your personnel, schemes, and what they would do different, or do to fix things.

This is your one chance to get many unvarnished opinions about things you may not have thought of.

They might just be learing something.

Be patient.
 

LarryStalling

Hall of Famer
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Posts
1,144
Reaction score
112
Maybe we are waiting to hire the last man standing because he will be the cheapest :D

I kind of agree with this. His dilatory moves could be to hire a coach at a cheaper rate, but it sure does seem risky to me.

A second possibility exists. Does he have an eyeball on someone that he expects to go deep into the playoffs like Whiz did with Pitt? I think realistically that is a possibility. I remember how everyone wrung their hands during the last coaching search while we waited on the Steelers to finish their run.
 

Reddog

ASFN Lifer
Joined
Jan 8, 2003
Posts
2,807
Reaction score
323
Location
Scottsdale
I love Horton but he is not ready for the job and his ideas for the OC reinforce that.
 

binkar

ASFN Lifer
Joined
Dec 24, 2002
Posts
2,672
Reaction score
52
* Card-teasers: Peyton Manning, Andy Reid, Norv Turner...

How did they tease Norv Turner?

* Reality is MB, as much as I and others like the guy, has no real sense of what it takes to land a big fish---he even nearly blew it with the biggest fish whom he already had on the line: Kurt Warner.

You frequently refer back to this Kurt Warner thing. The fact is we didn't lose him. It's just all part of the negotiation process. The 49ers did it with Alex Smith, the Saints did it with Drew Brees etc. It's just part of the business and unless you lose them, it doesn't matter.

* This is why we haven't signed a big name free agent either.

How frequently do these turn out well? Seems like for every Peyton Manning there are 5 Mario Williams or Nmamdi Asomugha.

* MB calls his delays in the the GM and HC searches doing his "due diligence"---and there's some merit to that---however, in relation to how the Cardinals normally do business, it seems more like continued "due indecisiveness."

How do you have any evidence it is "due indecisiveness" as opposed to actual due diligence.

* These GM and HC searches are much like CKW's handling of QBs---stall and stall and stall---evaluate, evaluate, evaluate = last second decision.

Last second? It's January 11th.

* For once can't there be some strong conviction and no waffling?

Where is there any evidence of waffling?

* The key domino in the McCoy interest is the Chicago Bears---if the Bears make a HC signing, then the Cardinals have a decent chance---however, if the Bears wait for McCoy, the Cardinals have a slim to none chance with slim leaving town in a BMW.

So why not wait it out? No one is banging down the door to hire Horton and there are a number of qualified candidates still coaching playoff teams.

* Not buying the "I did my due diligence and then learned that the right guy was in the building all along."

Why not? Isn't it irresponsible to not even check who else is out there and make sure you are hiring the right person?

* Stringing Ray Horton along does two very troubling things: (1) it lessens the impact of his signing when it occurs after losing out on other candidates---because it looks very clear that Horton wasn't THE top candidate and now when others spurn the Cardinals suddenly "Horton was the guy all along"?---I mean look at what stringing out Kurt Warner did---it had a lot to do with Warner's exasperation and frustration with the franchise; it took a lot of wind out of his sails; (2) it means that if he doesn't get the job, and he is passed over for a candidate that has fewer years of experience that he is going to have to swallow his pride for a year and try to cope mentally with the fact that he was here through the toughest times and got very good results during the troubled times---and still, all to lose the job to a newbie OC candidate---what that means is Horton will be out of here as fast as he can in 2014. A raise likely won't appease him.

So again, you would rather they just hurry up and hire Horton even if they aren't positive he's their best option? What happened to the strong conviction you were seeking?

* Even the handling of the Todd Haley situation is a joke---a secret meeting---woo, wow, woo---there's no integrity in it. if Haley was the guy he should have been hired by now.

Again, what if they don't know he's the guy? Doesn't it make sense that they wanted to talk to him to see what he learned from his first experience as a head coach? What things he will change, his plans at QB, etc.? What happened at KC that's caused him to not only get fired, but have his contract terminated with refusal of the Chiefs to pay the balance. Also, it's possible they like multiple candidates. It's possible they would like to bring McCoy in for a second interview. There are a lot of things out there that are still possible.

* I think Haley is an excellent candidate---largely because I trust in his abil-ties as an offensive mind, schemer and play-caller---but most of all because I know he would put Fitz back in the place where Fitz belongs...we all love Fitz, but Fitz has become larger than the team in many respects---and that has to stop. No one has motivated Fitz more in his time here than Todd Haley. Haley raises the bar for everyone on the roster. He raises the expectations---and he raises the level of accountability, which, imo, is exactly what the Cardinals need.

And he also raises a lot of red flaggs that need to be fully evaluated before assuming that risk.

* All I know is Horton deserves the job. Plain and simple. And he deserves the job more than anyone else.

Just a couple days ago you were giving someone a hard time (which I agreed with) about them saying Horton should get the job because we didn't know his OC, DC, QB coach etc.

* Now that GM Steve Keim is in place---appoint Horton and open up an OC search that Keim, Licht and Horton can conduct in unison---there could be some nice surprise candidates---there could be some hidden gems---that part of it they all could take more time with.

It's also possible that they wouldn't be able to attract the same type of OC that some of the other coaches could. This is speculative on my part, but Horton has a seemingly very limited coaching network whereas some of the other guys may have better OC candidates prepared to join their staff should they get a HC job.

Sorry, but all these arguments just wreak of impatience. There are still a number of talented coaches out there, and I'm glad Bidwill is taking his time to make one of the most important decisions in his career. I have no problem with the way Bidwill has operated his search. If anything, I just wish he would speak with a few more candidates than he has (though Somers today said it's "highly likely" he has spoke with candidates we aren't aware of).

.
 
Last edited:

binkar

ASFN Lifer
Joined
Dec 24, 2002
Posts
2,672
Reaction score
52
How long have you waited to see the brand of defense in Az, your seeing today? Because IMO Horton likely shops his services elsewhere after 2013.

Horton's got a pretty dang good gig here in AZ. He has a defense with an incredible young core, a star at every level (DL, LB, CB), and the possibility of it just getting better. If the Cardinals went back to Horton and offered him an extension with a significant raise, I think he'd have to seriously consider it. The guy wants to be a HC, plain and simple, but his best chances of doing that are remaining with a team where his defense is implemented, he knows his players, and he knows they can be successful. Will Horton likely get a job next year? I'd bet yes, but people have been saying that about Mike Zimmer for years and it hasn't happened. Horton didn't get much serious interest outside of the Cardinals this year. Neither Buffalo nor Cleveland seemed to have him near the top of their choices.

Grass isn't always greener...
 

binkar

ASFN Lifer
Joined
Dec 24, 2002
Posts
2,672
Reaction score
52
I love Horton but he is not ready for the job and his ideas for the OC reinforce that.

Don't forget that was a reporting from Jurecki, who has since said Horton contacted Norv Turner. I honestly don't know if he's ready or not, but I definitely wouldn't judge that based off Jurecki's comments.
 

52brandon

ASFN Lifer
Joined
Oct 30, 2011
Posts
3,407
Reaction score
0
I think they are going after McCoy and are willing to wait for him. Horton will be the DC as he is under contract for 2013.
they're at least trying to talk to him. I still believe Horton is our dude, but McCoy was the only other guy I would have considered. He could really impress the mgmt to the point he passes Horton in their eyes, or he may not. But I would definitely interview the guy before just pulling the trigger on Horton. Let's not act like the Chiefs and jump all over the guy that talked to us first
 

BACH

Superbowl, Homeboy!
Joined
May 14, 2002
Posts
6,120
Reaction score
1,908
Location
Expat in Kuala Lumpur
I think ARZ should hire Arians. Look at what he did with an IND roster that has a lot of question marks. He will fix this offense, allow ARZ to keep Horton at DC and find his OC. Right now it doesn't matter who gets the coaching gig, there aren't really any good OC's left to bring in.

Arians is a Norv Turner clon. Briliant OC, but I don't have much faith in him as a HC.

Did he do a great job with Indy? Yes. But to be honest, Pagano getting cancer united the team and he didn't have to act a HC - in the traditional role.

I'm with Mitch on this one. We need a HC to raise the bar - whether that's Haley or Horton and then surround him with strong X's and O's guys especially at OC.
 

schutd

ASFN Addict
Joined
Oct 15, 2002
Posts
6,246
Reaction score
2,175
Location
Charleston, SC
IMO...don't let "your best candidate" get away because of one flaw! :bang:

If reports are true, thats an ENORMOUS FLAW. If the FO doesnt like the HCs choice for OC, you cant hire him. The OC will be everything next year. EVERYTHING.
 
OP
OP
Mitch

Mitch

Crawled Through 5 FB Fields
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Posts
13,405
Reaction score
2,982
Location
Wrentham, MA
Horton's got a pretty dang good gig here in AZ. He has a defense with an incredible young core, a star at every level (DL, LB, CB), and the possibility of it just getting better. If the Cardinals went back to Horton and offered him an extension with a significant raise, I think he'd have to seriously consider it. The guy wants to be a HC, plain and simple, but his best chances of doing that are remaining with a team where his defense is implemented, he knows his players, and he knows they can be successful. Will Horton likely get a job next year? I'd bet yes, but people have been saying that about Mike Zimmer for years and it hasn't happened. Horton didn't get much serious interest outside of the Cardinals this year. Neither Buffalo nor Cleveland seemed to have him near the top of their choices.

Grass isn't always greener...

What is at the core of this argument has nothing to do with impatience and everything to do with timing and perception.

I will always go back to the Kurt Warner debacle because in essence it manifests how poorly the Cardinals treated the most important and pivotal decision they had to make in the last 10 years.

You can say---yeah, but they signed him---but---how different would things have been if they had made the commitment to Warner quickly and emphatically, rather than to have had Warner and everyone else twisting in the wind. I maintain that it would have made a world of difference because Warner would have felt duly appreciated by the organization---and he wouldn't have had to go through the season with a bad taste in his mouth.

With Warner it wasn't so much about the money---it was about the recognition and the commitment.

Remember that to that point, Warner hadn't even gone into one of the last few season as the named starter.

Remember too that Warner and his agent tried to get a new deal done the previous off-season and the Cardinals were not interested in doing so. The Cardinals still believed that Matt Leinart was the man, not Warner...even after Warner had lit up the scoreboard in ways the Cardinals hadn't seen in ages....with one arm, no less.

What we had in Warner was special---not the type of thing you want to flirt with.

We now have the same in Ray Horton---what he has done with the once pathetic and hapless Cardinal defense is special.

The vibe surrounding the defense is now special---and should not be flirted with.

I am not sure if you have considered this, but there's a chance that if the Cardinals want to hire McCoy or some other OC candidate that he would insist on hiring his own people and his own staff.

It actually is smart for a new head coach to think that way---

I accepted a head coaching position once where I was told that the incumbent DC would be retained---and the DC had been one of the finalists for the HC job.

That was a huge mistake on my part---the DC, feeling spurned by the school and the AD for not getting the HC job did all he could to divide the team and to question every decision I made. He even went to all kinds of parents to lobby for their support.

Now---we would assume that Ray Horton is professional enough not to do something like that---but---let's be real---he will be bitterly disappointed if he does not get the job---and he will feel indignant about it, seeing as he has the players' trust and he's been slugging it out with them in the trenches while the newbie HC was coaching somewhere else.

We are talking about human nature here.

Then---we are talking about player allegiances---many of Horton's players will be siding up with him on this...especially if the new HC doesn't command their respect the way Horton does.

The Cardinals could become more divided as a team than ever---

Again it is only human nature---it's called having someone's back.

Lastly---you may not have finished reading my post because I proposed that the Cardinals hire Horton and then engage in a full-scale OC search that they can conduct as a team (Keim. Licht and Horton).

I did not think Horton's choices (if MJ was accurate) were the best he or the Cardinals could do.

But at this point I do think that Ray Horton is the best candidate for the HC position. He brings special to the table---and I believe he would galvanize all the players on the team, offense and defense---which is exactly what we need.

Waiting and losing out on McCoy would, imo, be a mistake---timing wise, because Horton then would appear to be what he appears to be right now: a fall-back option.

That doesn't work for holding onto "special."

Special needs to be treated as such.
 
Last edited:

mrbyte

Be careful what you wish for.
Joined
Sep 5, 2008
Posts
649
Reaction score
18
Location
Coventry, England
Or..maybe it's a lot simpler. Maybe they're just interviewing dudes when available, are doing their due diligence and when they're ready they'll hire the guy they like best.

:yeahthat:

Its like having an itch you cant scratch waiting for an announcement, but maybe the old adage is true here
'make a decision in haste and repent at leisure'

maybe MB is doing it right? we wont know for a year or two...but we shouldnt judge him or his measured approached yet..
 

Garthshort

ASFN Addict
Joined
Aug 11, 2002
Posts
9,507
Reaction score
5,785
Location
Scarsdale, NY
Mitch, thanks. And I'd be verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry surprised that come Tuesday if Ray Horton is not announced as the new HC.
 

GuernseyCard

ASFN Icon
Joined
Dec 29, 2012
Posts
10,123
Reaction score
5,681
Location
London UK
When someone says that "it's not about the money... it's about the money!"

Consider what Warner was asking for when he hopped onto the plane for San Fran, and what he signed for in AZ.

It was business, pure and simple.

If Horton gets the job in the end, he won't be complaining about how many came through the door before he was hired. He'll see it, IMO, as validation whenever it comes.
 
Last edited:

Staff online

Forum statistics

Threads
556,132
Posts
5,433,751
Members
6,329
Latest member
cardinals2025
Top