Upgraded Draft and Trades Plan

[Skkorpion]

I'm still with Mitch and now Mainstreet in three things:

1. Thinking St. Pierre can play and is important to Whisenhunt to keep;

2. Buying into the obvious that Leinart was not chosen by Whisenhunt and thus his standing with this staff remains insecure;

3. Bringing back St. Pierre, rather than making room for a raw developmental QB signals again lack of total faith in Leinart.

Every coach's long term security is tied directly to his choice of QB to ride for 8 to 10 years. Whisenhunt may believe he does not have that guy yet.

 

[Assface]

It keeps getting brought up that Whisenhunt didn't bring in Leinart but he didn't bring in Warner either.

 

[Syracusecards]

Do you guys have blinders on? Seriously. Leinart is not Whiz's guy. If he was, would have started Warner over him? Would he have promised St. Pierre a legitmate shot at winning the #2? That was not a token gesture...look at the timing of it: the eve of free agency with the Chiefs and Haley making overtures at St. Pierre.

I think it's another motivational ploy from Whiz to Leinart. It doesn't make sense as far as trading him. Why would you devalue someone prior to trading him? In a nutshell, that would be Whiz telling potential trade partners that "I think our 3rd string QB could beat this guy out....so whaddya think??? How about a 2nd rounder???"

Doesn't add up to me. That's like when someone is eating something and says "THIS TASTES HORRIBLE!!! Want a bite?"

 

[Skkorpion]

It keeps getting brought up that Whisenhunt didn't bring in Leinart but he didn't bring in Warner either.

Absolutely correct. Warner gave Whisenhunt short term breathing room. And Leinart could still be the answer. Whisenhunt had to completely alter his preferred style of play to accomodate Warner.

Point being, Mitch has not gone off the deep end on this. Many of you are not seeing the possibilities, in my opinion. That's all. Making fun of a QB who has not played is easy. Easier than considering some real signals may be out there.

 

[Skkorpion]

I think it's another motivational ploy from Whiz to Leinart. It doesn't make sense as far as trading him. Why would you devalue someone prior to trading him? In a nutshell, that would be Whiz telling potential trade partners that "I think our 3rd string QB could beat this guy out....so whaddya think??? How about a 2nd rounder???"

Doesn't add up to me. That's like when someone is eating something and says "THIS TASTES HORRIBLE!!! Want a bite?"

You spin wrong. Whisenhunt has done only one thing that devalues Leinart and that was extending Warner. If Ken also told St. Pierre he has a chance to compete for #2 QB that would be good motivation for both backups (as you mention). Ken has made it clear the best player at every position will play. No favoritism.

 

[DoTheDew]

I will give you this at leas Mitch- I could see the Jets giving up a 2nd and 7th for Leinart. Thank you for not saying we get a first for him. I also like your draft for the most part. I think Freeman will be a much better pro than his colleague Lauranitis, but I am not sure if he has the size to play in a 3-4?

McCoy/Johnson/Wood/Bruton would be an A+ draft in my book for where we are picking.

 

[joeshmo]

Brooks has the speed to get to plays before they can get on track. And you're not losing anything in coverage with him there.

Dansby doesnt have that? If you like Brooks their, there is no reason at all that you wouldnt like Dansby there either.

Also If this was 3-4 years ago maybe but the guy is 36, slow, and bad in coverage. Get past the name and look at his current body of work.

 

[DoTheDew]

Do you guys have blinders on? Seriously. Leinart is not Whiz's guy. If he was, would have started Warner over him? Would he have promised St. Pierre a legitmate shot at winning the #2? That was not a token gesture...look at the timing of it: the eve of free agency with the Chiefs and Haley making overtures at St. Pierre.

You might be right that Whiz doesn't like Leinart, but your reasoning is flawed. First of all, last year he promised Leinart that the starting job was his to lose, does that mean at this point last year Whiz didn't like Warner and wanted to get rid of him? Also, any good coach who is trying to re-sign a player SHOULD tell him that he has a chance to compete for a move up on the depth chart. Had he not said that, BSP likely would have left for the Chiefs and Whiz would have had to find a new QB to teach his system to. Whiz does like BSP, but just because he told him he can compete for #2 doesn't mean he doesn't like Leinart, if he didn't like Leinart he would have said "#2 is your job to lose" and Leinart would have already been demoted.

Don't believe everything coaches and GMs tell to players and put out in the media, especially this time of year.

 

[joeshmo]

He has proven that the Cardinals wanted him back badly enough to promise him a legitmate shot at #2.

Says St. Pierre in one article. You notice that Wiz hasnt said anything about it. Even when asked about it at his press confrence for Warner he deflected the question and gave his usual I like both guys/I will always promote competition speech. Its the same thing he tells all of his players, if "you compete you can get a job."

 

[joeshmo]

Do you guys have blinders on? Seriously. Leinart is not Whiz's guy. If he was, would have started Warner over him? Would he have promised St. Pierre a legitmate shot at winning the #2? That was not a token gesture...look at the timing of it: the eve of free agency with the Chiefs and Haley making overtures at St. Pierre.

Good point look at the timing of it, free agency with another team looking at you. Its a guy you want to sign do you tell him....

A - You can come in and have a shot at running our scout team for another season.

B - You can compete, just like all the other players on our team.

 

[joeshmo]

I'm still with Mitch and now Mainstreet in three things:

1. Thinking St. Pierre can play and is important to Whisenhunt to keep;

2. Buying into the obvious that Leinart was not chosen by Whisenhunt and thus his standing with this staff remains insecure;

3. Bringing back St. Pierre, rather than making room for a raw developmental QB signals again lack of total faith in Leinart.

Every coach's long term security is tied directly to his choice of QB to ride for 8 to 10 years. Whisenhunt may believe he does not have that guy yet.

Your last sentence is an excellent point. Kurt two year deal, for age of course but two year deal regardless, one year deal for Pierre, uncertianty of Matt. Wiz as you say may not believe his QB of the future past Warner is not on the team, and may be bidding his time until a better QB class comes available in the draft, because lets face it this QB draft class coming up is nothing to shake a stick at.

 

[joeshmo]

It keeps getting brought up that Whisenhunt didn't bring in Leinart but he didn't bring in Warner either.

And Matt had a legit shot at starting all the way up to after the last preseason game. Wiz said the deciding factor was Warner being a veteran. Not sure why people think Wiz hates Matt, except for the one reason that he didnt draft him or that he picked a super bowl QB over him the week leading up to the start of the 08 season.

 

[joeshmo]

Doesn't add up to me. That's like when someone is eating something and says "THIS TASTES HORRIBLE!!! Want a bite?"

Is it blue cheese, because a lot of people dont like blue cheese but if it was blue cheese I think I would still want a bite.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

You spin wrong. Whisenhunt has done only one thing that devalues Leinart and that was extending Warner. If Ken also told St. Pierre he has a chance to compete for #2 QB that would be good motivation for both backups (as you mention). Ken has made it clear the best player at every position will play. No favoritism.

Skkorp how does he NOT extend the guy that just took him to the SB? Maybe the fact that he lowballed Warner should indicate the opposite. That even though that was the case he was comfortable with Matt taking the reins from this point on and Kurt looking elsewhere.

Mitch is in love with a player that he has close regional ties too. Like Canuck said why is it so crazy that Wiz wanted to generate both backups playing hard going into the offseason and have a guy who knows his system in place? You keep clinging to Wiz telling BSP during negotiations there would be a competition. OF COURSE HE IS GOING TO TELL BSP THAT. And who made that public exactly? BSP. Not Wiz.

Also Warner was actually demoted to #2 for Matt here last offseason. What was the point of that if he didn't like Matt? Why is one offseason move from LAST offseason that doesn't advance your point, so conveniently forgotten Mitch? It makes no sense. And you ask why he went with Warner last year if he liked Matt so much - well it was all reports are from fans here at TC, to the coaching staff, to Kurt himself it was a close competition and Kurt took us very far obviously. Is it that much of a discgrace to sit behind the NFC Pro Bowl starting QB?

Its obvious you have a preoccupation with this Mitch or you would throw up at least ONE plan that would acknowledge the likelihood of Leinart being here next offseason. He has said he wants to stay, the FO has sais that as has Wiz. But you keep pushing it and pulling at strings to show why the F.O. is aligned with you.

Well they aren't. It's okay to have a opinions but its also possible to consider the possibility you have a bias and are not recognizing it. Even though you ignore 99% of real evidence and harp on the two or three partial points that may advance your agenda.

You don't like getting bashed Mitch but don't you see where others are coming from when they question you on your preoccupation to send Leinart elsewhere?

My theory is you hate the fact that Leinart (who from all indications is actually better built to run the common thought of the "Wiz offense" then Warner is - despite your claims) is going to be the guy once Kurt goes down or retires and your boy BSP won't get a chance. You have to ddmit you love a good underdog story and pull for guys like BSP over the higher rated guys at all costs. Just like with Marcell Shipp and a half dozen other practice squad guys you have grabbed on to and fought the good fight for.

I am not trying to be disrespectful in the least. I am just pointing out the fact that you are putting your own personal observations on Matt into what you think Wiz thinks and try to advance your point by bringing up arbitrary evidence that may or may not back your point.

You have done this before with PS players. Could maybe - just maybe - this be the same thing again?

 

[abomb]

I'm mostly just bustin' chops Mitch. Keep up the good work.

I do believe the talent in the NFL is such that a Tom Brady or Matt Cassell or Kurt Warner in STL or Kurt Warner in ARI can occur.

I wonder if we wont see St Pierre run with the first team late in the preseason.

 

[Skkorpion]

Finest, I was not against extending Warner. I trusted Whisenhunt to make the choice and he did: Warner over Leinart, if only for one more year. By doing so, he devalued Leinart. Fact of life.

On your side though is Jeff Gollin's first law of Football management: All it takes is one GM to fall in love with (insert name here) Leinart and his value may be quite high.

 

[ajcardfan]

Point being, Mitch has not gone off the deep end on this. Many of you are not seeing the possibilities, in my opinion. That's all. Making fun of a QB who has not played is easy. Easier than considering some real signals may be out there.

I think he'd be taken more seriously if we haven't had almost a decade of him pushing the #3 QB constantly. Let's review. He said many of the same things about Chris Greisen, Preston Parsons and Shane Boyd. He did move up to a #2 QB in Josh McCown, between Parsons and Boyd, along the way there.

I guess by the "spaghetti theory", sooner or later, he'll be 'right' about one of these backups. I actually thought Greisen could play, but I can't see what he sees in St. Pierre. Just like i couldn't see what he saw in those other backups.

 

[Zeno]

3. Bringing back St. Pierre, rather than making room for a raw developmental QB signals again lack of total faith in Leinart.
Every coach's long term security is tied directly to his choice of QB to ride for 8 to 10 years. Whisenhunt may believe he does not have that guy yet.

You don't think it had anything to do with his first season as a head coach? Carrying 2 QBs both getting hurt and having to scramble to find TWO back-ups? Don't you think it has to do with him being experienced enough(now) to recognize that bad things can happen and him having faith in a late round QB over a guy who at least has some NFL training camps under his belt is a better bet?

St Pierre is what he is, a career 3rd stringer. I doubt he'll ever be a #2 anywhere without an injury ahead of him on the depth chart.

 

[bg7brd]

This is the way I see the whole QB thing. It's all Warner's fault. Leinart was drafted to be the QB of the future but he's had to take a back seat because Warner is playing lights out. From most accounts, their training camp competition was close but Whiz gave the nod to Kurt "because he gave us the best chance to win". Of course he did. An experienced QB with a Super Bowl ring, league MVP, and Super Bowl MVP playing at that same level again. It's a no brainer. The fact Leinart is the back up has nothing to with his talent or capabilities. Also, I think it's quite plausible that Whiz telling St. Pierre that he has a shot at the number 2 spot has a lot to do with pushing Leinart since it's pretty much a foregone conclusion that Warner will start next year.

 

[bg7brd]

You don't think it had anything to do with his first season as a head coach? Carrying 2 QBs both getting hurt and having to scramble to find TWO back-ups? Don't you think it has to do with him being experienced enough(now) to recognize that bad things can happen and him having faith in a late round QB over a guy who at least has some NFL training camps under his belt is a better bet?

St Pierre is what he is, a career 3rd stringer. I doubt he'll ever be a #2 anywhere without an injury ahead of him on the depth chart.

That's a very good point Zeno.

 

[CardsFan88]

I like St. Pierre, I think he has some pretty good tools. I would actually be more comfortable having St. Pierre as backup than Leinart (imo). Doesn't mean he won't end up being a career 3rd stringer, but If I had my choice of 3rd stringers, he'd be at the top (although I am limited in the knowledge of current nfl 3rd stringers)

Last preseason I kept telling my friends this St. Pierre guy looks fairly good to me. Of course we saw Josh McCown have all the tools as well, but St. Pierre doesn't have the deer in the headlights look. But as of last preseason I was starting to get the feeling that St. Pierre has a good shot at having a better career and be a more effective NFL QB than Leinart.

Of course I still hoped for Leinart to pan out, and although I have my feelings, I always want the Cards to do well, so if Leinart eventually becomes our QB, good luck to him.

I also have to say that while not concrete, the logic is pretty sound behind Mitch's statement. Even if I didn't think what I thought about St. Pierre, the moves made and highlighted by Mitch could very well be strong indicators of what direction we're going.

TBH a 2nd and a 7th is a pretty good deal for a good player. With all the ???? marks about Leinart, I'd cash in for a 2nd and a 7th, like I would've cashed in my stocks in October/November had I had any. If you can get value now, I say go for it. 2nd and a 7th, I'm all over it. By the end of the year if Leinart doesn't drastically improve, his value might be 0 (via being cut) or a 6th rounder. I'd cash out now (or the day of the draft) and smile.

Brooks imo would be a good signing. I'd be very happy with that. Guy isn't everything he used to be, but he's more of his 'old' self than Ray Lewis is of his. I.E. The dropoff from Ray Lewis in his prime to Ray Lewis now is more than Derrick Brooks at his prime and Derrick Brooks now. Ray Lewis is still the better player, in certain ways, but I think Brooks might be had quite a bit cheaper than Ray Lewis.

All the mentioned signings I would find acceptable

Warrick Dunn is amazing. He may never of been the best rb, but man what a career. A small rb no less. He keeps surprising me every year, and I wouldn't mind taking advantage of low expectations thrown upon him again.

I know it's a funny reason, (because it's fantasy football), but every year I never draft Warrick Dunn, but by the end of year, he's always on one of my fantasy teams and I'm selecting him because he's the best of a decent bunch available. I don't think he's done.

Can't wait to see who they bring in for assistant GM or whatever the title.

 

[Sandan]

Just for once abomb, you should give me some credit for being right about a dark horse such as St. Pierre. I predicted the Chiefs would go after him. They did. I predicted Whiz would make it a priority to have him back. Done.

The problem is St. Pierre didn't win a Heisman, an NCAA Championship, nor was he drafted #10 in the first round. But...he's a better fit than Leinart in Whiz's system. This is not to denigrate Leinart, per se. He'll be a good fit somewhere else.

You have a point Mitch, I can see the reasoning. Is it correct who knows but there is logic to it

 

[binkar]

And Matt had a legit shot at starting all the way up to after the last preseason game. Wiz said the deciding factor was Warner being a veteran. Not sure why people think Wiz hates Matt, except for the one reason that he didnt draft him or that he picked a super bowl QB over him the week leading up to the start of the 08 season.

I agree. This notion that Whiz doesn't like Matt and that Matt doesn't fit this system baffles me. There are still a lot of variables that hadn't played out when St. Pierre signed and some that still need to play out in the next couple of years.

A. Let's not act like we paid St. Pierre millions of extra dollars to stay around (what was it $200K?)

B. The team may have been unsure as to what Matt's reaction would be to signing Kurt to an extra 2 years.

C. Although Kurt signed a 2 year deal, there is still the possibility that this is Kurt's last year. If Kurt nearly walked away from the game this year, who is to say he might not next? If he was injured (which is always a decent possibility), had a poor season (I don't think he will), or simply decides it's time to retire than it is well worth it to have 2 QB's on your roster you are still confident in. I know St. Pierre only signed a 1 year deal, but if he walked this year the chances of getting him back when the team is ready for him to be the #2 are very slim.

$200,000 (extra) is a small price to pay to keep another QB on your roster who you are confident in, wether it's the #1, #2, or #3. Especially when your starting QB is definitely in the last 2 years of his career. So you do whatever it takes to keep St. Pierre in the organization so that when the Warner era is over and the Leinart era is started, you still have a backup who you like and who knows the system ready to step in if needs be.

I guess to sum up what my thought are, I think this team has future plans for both Leinart (#1) and St. Pierre (#2), and it's not a "one or the other" situation like some of you seem to be implying.

It's a great move by the organization on playing the best player now while still building your team for the future.

 

[binkar]

Just for once abomb, you should give me some credit for being right about a dark horse such as St. Pierre. I predicted the Chiefs would go after him. They did. I predicted Whiz would make it a priority to have him back. Done.

The problem is St. Pierre didn't win a Heisman, an NCAA Championship, nor was he drafted #10 in the first round. But...he's a better fit than Leinart in Whiz's system. This is not to denigrate Leinart, per se. He'll be a good fit somewhere else.

Mitch,

Please explain to me your reasoning for this. I am not trying to be rude, challenge you, or arguing I am just puzzled why you think Leinart is a poor fit and what tools you see in St. Pierre that makes him a good fit.

You may have posted this somewhere before, but I am not finding it. I am not hating on you for your love of St. Pierre I just want to know what you see in him that made you so confident in him.

So if you would, give me a "scouting report" so to speak on St. Pierre and also an analysis on how St. Pierre's tools apply to Whiz's system versus why Leinart's don't.

Thanks.

 

[perivolaki]

So, Whis wants to keep his 3rd string QB who knows the system and offers some continuity in case of an extreme emergency - i.e. - both Kurt and Matt go down... what a surprise!

I think it just might be that simple.

1. Warner might have just won the job because of the years of experience at his disposal.

2. Whis likes Leinart and sees him as the QBOTF so he holds on to him and if Warner goes down he feels comfortable with Matt. Hes not going to let go of Leinart if he seems him this way.

3. After going without a quarterback after last yearinjuries he finds a guy like BSP that knows the system and if god forbid both Warner and Leinart go down he wouldn't have to start from ground zero teaching a new quarterback the offense.