USA vs Puerto Rico *Spoiler*

[hafey2]

I think the international game is very close to the college game: the short three pointers, true zone defeneses, and shorter game. Like college, the three point line and zone defense allow athletically defeicent teams to stay much closer to athletic teams, and like college the international game is very guard oreinted.

Half of Team USA played one year of less of college ball, and the US roster is overwehelmingly redundant with a lack of strong guard play, IMO.

 

[devilalum]

It's pretty obvious that this team is very poorly assembled but the thing that's really stupid is that this is the second time in 2 years that it happened.

All the deficiencies you've pointed out were observed and noted at the World Championships.

Why did the NBA repeat the same mistakes and expect a different outcome?

Falling on their faces like this is going to do a lot to propel James, Anthony, etc... into the superstar role models the league wants them to be. I'm not saying that it will matter that much once the season starts but it sure won't help with PR.

The NBA used to pride itself on playing the best basketball in the world. Its pretty hard to make that assertion when your best young players get spanked at the World Chamionships and the Olympics in less than a 2 year span.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I find it hard to rip these players too much. At least they were willing to go. Its the pansies sitting at home that I have the real problem with.

There are some reasonable remedies to this problem. The most glaring one would be that we need a full-time national coach. One who is familiar with the international game and who has full authority to choose his own squad.

Larry Brown can't have possibly done alot of preparation for this while coaching the Pistons throughout June.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I find it hard to rip these players too much. At least they were willing to go. Its the pansies sitting at home that I have the real problem with.

exactly! It's not like EVERY OTHER FREAKING OLYMPIAN ISN'T WORRIED ABOUT THEIR SAFETY AS WELL! Just because guys have money doesn't mean they have more to lose - everyone's life is equal - and those guys that DO have money already have so much more than every other freaking olympian out there - so they look even worse. The NBA is just full of crap right now - players who don't really love the game - that era is clearly dead - Magic, Michael, Larry, Charles, Ewing, Drex, Stcokton, Malone, Isiaha (how the hell do you spell that name) - I mean Shaq (the self described MDE - when the hell did any of the above HAVE to annoit themselves ANYTHING?) - McGrady who mnade up an excuse about getting married? The rest of the dreck that had to much too lsoe - give me a freaking break - the guys have WAYYYYY to high an opinion of themselves.

 

[sly fly]

I'm embarassed for these guys. I guess the effort is there (in relative terms), but they got schooled by a better team (today). That's hard for me to say.

Does this just show much much hot air is blown up these guys asses here in the States? Do they "really" deserve the millions that are thrown at them? I mean, I think they're getting paid based on "SportsCenter Highlights" and the "Rather Look Pretty And Lose... Than Look Ugly And Win Factor".

The basic fundamentals that create winning basketball is nowhere to be found with most of these players. (That's stating the obvious.)

Carlos Arroyo can step in the gym and run circles around an Allen Iverson... yet who gets the pub? Allen Iverson can because he launches 34 shots per game. That's easy.

I guess I really haven't said anything witht his rant. It's just plain obvious by looking at their play.

 

[Yuma]

I just have two things to add that I don't think have been addressed:

1. Carlos Arroyo. I was chiming in all off season about how I liked this guy's PG play. We could have got him cheaper than Nash, and then got a decent big man with the price difference. Arroyo is very good fundementally. A nice solid PG we could have had at a low price.

2. If the coaches are allowed to pick players, would they pick a guy like Casey Jacobson. I swear, he is the type of guy you need to augment the star players. A guy who hustles, can hit the spot up jumper, one of the best three shooters, and a decent rebounder, too. I would rather we allow the coaches to pick the players that fit their coaching style. I know it's too much politics, and that's why they have a commitee. But our current setup is NOT working. I think the coaches would pick more Jacobson type players to fill out the squad than a bunch of all stars.

 

[Billythekid]

exactly! It's not like EVERY OTHER FREAKING OLYMPIAN ISN'T WORRIED ABOUT THEIR SAFETY AS WELL! Just because guys have money doesn't mean they have more to lose - everyone's life is equal - and those guys that DO have money already have so much more than every other freaking olympian out there - so they look even worse. The NBA is just full of crap right now - players who don't really love the game - that era is clearly dead - Magic, Michael, Larry, Charles, Ewing, Drex, Stcokton, Malone, Isiaha (how the hell do you spell that name) - I mean Shaq (the self described MDE - when the hell did any of the above HAVE to annoit themselves ANYTHING?) - McGrady who mnade up an excuse about getting married? The rest of the dreck that had to much too lsoe - give me a freaking break - the guys have WAYYYYY to high an opinion of themselves.

I agree man. The individual is defiantley more important to most then the team. Teams like the Jazz are nice examples of the team concept. The Pistons to. They play really well as a team. TMAC annoys the heck out of me. You earn superstardom. You don't label yourself it.

 

[sly fly]

exactly! It's not like EVERY OTHER FREAKING OLYMPIAN ISN'T WORRIED ABOUT THEIR SAFETY AS WELL! Just because guys have money doesn't mean they have more to lose - everyone's life is equal - and those guys that DO have money already have so much more than every other freaking olympian out there - so they look even worse. The NBA is just full of crap right now - players who don't really love the game - that era is clearly dead - Magic, Michael, Larry, Charles, Ewing, Drex, Stcokton, Malone, Isiaha (how the hell do you spell that name) - I mean Shaq (the self described MDE - when the hell did any of the above HAVE to annoit themselves ANYTHING?) - McGrady who mnade up an excuse about getting married? The rest of the dreck that had to much too lsoe - give me a freaking break - the guys have WAYYYYY to high an opinion of themselves.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

I hope this brings the NBA "me-guys" back down to Earth a little bit. How friggin' embarassing it is to get beat by Puerto Rico. This is surely a sign of more humiliating defeats to come.

Style over substance reigns supreme for USA Basketball.

 

[scotsman13]

oh come on how can you not put some blame on the coach? larry brown may have had some success in the nba but can he coach in the international level?

almost everyone on this board nail frank johnsons a$$ to the wall if he came out to a preseason game with a team like this. every time down the court they still put the ball down low for duncan. where are the slashers? iverson and melo can hit the 20". one of marions strong points is the mid range game. why is jefferson stil starting when everytime that marion has been on the floor he has played better? how can it not be the coach's fault when their game plan is so messed up from the start?


this team would make a better showing with D'Antoni as their coach at least he knows how to play the international game.

 

[Cheesebeef]

oh come on how can you not put some blame on the coach? larry brown may have had some success in the nba but can he coach in the international level?

almost everyone on this board nail frank johnsons a$$ to the wall if he came out to a preseason game with a team like this. every time down the court they still put the ball down low for duncan. where are the slashers? iverson and melo can hit the 20". one of marions strong points is the mid range game. why is jefferson stil starting when everytime that marion has been on the floor he has played better? how can it not be the coach's fault when their game plan is so messed up from the start?


this team would make a better showing with D'Antoni as their coach at least he knows how to play the international game.

good lord - every time Marion's been on the floor he's been better than Jefferson - were his two AIRBALL three pointer's better than Jefferson or his wide-open 15 footer in the fourth that he clanked much better? Give me a break - and as far as Marion's "vaunted" mid-range shot - that too I think is a myth propogated by this board.

Iverson can't hit the broadside of a barn unless he's shooting 30 times at it. To consider AI a good shooter is a joke. I do agree with Melo though - he's one of the few guys that does have a mid range game IMO.

 

[Cheesebeef]

larry brown may have had some success in the nba

and IMO you're post lost ALL credibility starting right here. SOME success? that's just a freaking joke - everywhere he's gone he's won - division titles, conference championships, NBA titles - if that's "some" success - what the hell do you call D'Antoni?!

 

[slinslin]

No matter what people say how lost Amare looked in 2 minutes. I bet you he would score more than 7 points in the quarter no matter if they zone up if his teammates actually gave him the ball.

7 points in the 2nd quarter. Ridiculous.

And Larry Brown can't coach offense. If they have any plays that they run I can't see them and I can't see the players being used at what they do best. They should set up Marion for midrange jumpers not play him as a 4 under the basket all the time. Shawn Marion is the best midrange shooter on that team.

Maybe D'Antoni would have been a better choice than Brown or Popovic because D'Antoni has actually won championships under FIBA rules.

 

[Cheesebeef]

No matter what people say how lost Amare looked in 2 minutes. I bet you he would score more than 7 points in the quarter no matter if they zone up if his teammates actually gave him the ball.

7 points in the 2nd quarter. Ridiculous.

And Larry Brown can't coach offense. If they have any plays that they run I can't see them and I can't see the players being used at what they do best. They should set up Marion for midrange jumpers not play him as a 4 under the basket all the time. Shawn Marion is the best midrange shooter on that team.

Maybe D'Antoni would have been a better choice than Brown or Popovic because D'Antoni has actually won championships under FIBA rules.

Larry Brown works with what he's got - His Clipper teams weren't defensive juggernauts - they were scorer's - as were his Pacer teams. I mean are you telling me that Reggie Miller, Marc Jackson and Rik Smits got to the Conference Finals two years running based on their DEFENSE?

As far asnot being able to coach offense - anyone remember how many tiems the Pistons would either come out timeouts are in bounds plays with strict offensive plays that would result in easy baskets?

I don't think Brown is doing a great job out there - but he's been saddled with an atrocious TEAM - plain and simple and more Shawn Marion shying away from contact and airballing three pointers ain't what this team needs - it needs an overhaul. I don't mean to pinpoint Marion because he is only one of a host of problems this squad has - no leaders, very few guys who have won at crunch time or in games that actually matter and not a lot of heart either.

 

[Lars the Red]

Couldn't have said it better myself.

I hope this brings the NBA "me-guys" back down to Earth a little bit. How friggin' embarassing it is to get beat by Puerto Rico. This is surely a sign of more humiliating defeats to come.

Style over substance reigns supreme for USA Basketball.

Thank you, sly, that's the exact thing I've been preaching for way too long.

Dunks are fine, and they have more meaning when they happen in the flow of the game, but guys are using them like they're the offense. Same with nice ball handling moves, or no look passes. All of that is a small part of the big picture, yet you've got guys out there playing for our national team that can't just shoot a simple jump shot without trying to create something special. It's just plain bad basketball.

 

[Lars the Red]

oh come on how can you not put some blame on the coach? larry brown may have had some success in the nba but can he coach in the international level?

He was a successful player at the international level and has been a part of winning coaching staffs 3 times playing international ball. He's been familiar with it for over 40 years. Enough said.

almost everyone on this board nail frank johnsons a$$ to the wall if he came out to a preseason game with a team like this.

You've completely lost me here.

every time down the court they still put the ball down low for duncan.

Everytime? Not from what I've seen, and what good does it do when the pass it to him when a zone is sagged all over him?

where are the slashers?

Running into a zone defense last I checked. You have to hit from the outside in order to have room to slash and these idiots don't take the shots when they have them and couldn't hit them if they did.

iverson and melo can hit the 20".

Iverson has a career percentage slightly worse than Shaq from the line, and why would I want my point guard to start casting up everything? He's supposed to be the distributor. Melo can hit it, but for reasons unknown has decided he needs to pump and drive everytime he gets it on the wing.

one of marions strong points is the mid range game. why is jefferson stil starting when everytime that marion has been on the floor he has played better? how can it not be the coach's fault when their game plan is so messed up from the start?

Marion is doing what everyone else is and not catching and shooting, he's putting it on the floor. The plan is their, the bone heads on the court are obviously above coaching and will enjoy the ridicule they deserve.

this team would make a better showing with D'Antoni as their coach at least he knows how to play the international game.

Ya, right.

 

[Lars the Red]

No matter what people say how lost Amare looked in 2 minutes. I bet you he would score more than 7 points in the quarter no matter if they zone up if his teammates actually gave him the ball.

7 points in the 2nd quarter. Ridiculous.

And Larry Brown can't coach offense. If they have any plays that they run I can't see them and I can't see the players being used at what they do best. They should set up Marion for midrange jumpers not play him as a 4 under the basket all the time. Shawn Marion is the best midrange shooter on that team.

Maybe D'Antoni would have been a better choice than Brown or Popovic because D'Antoni has actually won championships under FIBA rules.

Larry doesn't have dick to do with the pathetic performance of the idiots on the court. These basketball retards don't recognize what they're supposed to do against these types of offenses and defenses. All they know is the NBA game, which is to basketball what the WWE is to Greco-Roman wrestling. Marion has had open looks and done exactly what you aren't supposed to do against a zone....drive. None of these guys would make a college team with their basketball knowledge. Thank God they are fantastic athletes, or they'd be flippin' burgers instead of counting millions.

 

[Cheesebeef]

He was a successful player at the international level and has been a part of winning coaching staffs 3 times playing international ball. He's been familiar with it for over 40 years. Enough said.


You've completely lost me here.
Everytime? Not from what I've seen, and what good does it do when the pass it to him when a zone is sagged all over him?

Running into a zone defense last I checked. You have to hit from the outside in order to have room to slash and these idiots don't take the shots when they have them and couldn't hit them if they did. Iverson has a career percentage slightly worse than Shaq from the line, and why would I want my point guard to start casting up everything? He's supposed to be the distributor. Melo can hit it, but for reasons unknown has decided he needs to pump and drive everytime he gets it on the wing.
Marion is doing what everyone else is and not catching and shooting, he's putting it on the floor. The plan is their, the bone heads on the court are obviously above coaching and will enjoy the ridicule they deserve.



Ya, right.

well that was unmercifully, but succinctly put.

I really hope there is a way for Shawn Marion and picks or something can be packaged together for Magloire (pipedream - I know) - I gotta say I just absolutely hate his game and his absolute shrinkage on the main stage - championship teams can't have that from one of their most important and highest paid players.

Thank God we got Q making Shawn expendable. The Suns need attitude in the worst way. The only guys out there with both TALENT and Tude' or grit are Amare (still has a way to go harnessing all that talent), Nash and Q - I'd throw Little Jake in there because I think he's a warrior - but he just doesn't have the talent. Three guys ain't enough - this team needs to continue to get tougher.

Rip away Marion fans.

 

[Lars the Red]

well that was unmercifully, but succinctly put.

I really hope there is a way for Shawn Marion and picks or something can be packaged together for Magloire (pipedream - I know) - I gotta say I just absolutely hate his game and his absolute shrinkage on the main stage - championship teams can't have that from one of their most important and highest paid players.

Thank God we got Q making Shawn expendable. The Suns need attitude in the worst way. The only guys out there with both TALENT and Tude' or grit are Amare (still has a way to go harnessing all that talent), Nash and Q - I'd throw Little Jake in there because I think he's a warrior - but he just doesn't have the talent. Three guys ain't enough - this team needs to continue to get tougher.

Rip away Marion fans.

The sad thing is I really like Shawn. He's such a talent, but isn't doing the things as a player to take himself to the next level, and yes, he does seem to shrink from challenges. That in it's self is okay if you have other players on your team that rise to the occasion, but the guy makes a boat load of cash and gamewise doesn't seem to be headed in the right direction. If he goes, I really hope they get a couple of solid players for him. With the right guidence, he can still be a truly special player.

 

[Cheesebeef]

The sad thing is I really like Shawn. He's such a talent, but isn't doing the things as a player to take himself to the next level, and yes, he does seem to shrink from challenges. That in it's self is okay if you have other players on your team that rise to the occasion, but the guy makes a boat load of cash and gamewise doesn't seem to be headed in the right direction. If he goes, I really hope they get a couple of solid players for him. With the right guidence, he can still be a truly special player.

that's adefinetly a less vemousous way of putting my thoughts - except for the "with the right guidance part" - I think special players have that in them as an inate quality - it's something that can't be taught or nudged towards - but otherwise - I think you're dead on.

 

[sly fly]

Larry doesn't have dick to do with the pathetic performance of the idiots on the court. These basketball retards don't recognize what they're supposed to do against these types of offenses and defenses. All they know is the NBA game, which is to basketball what the WWE is to Greco-Roman wrestling. Marion has had open looks and done exactly what you aren't supposed to do against a zone....drive. None of these guys would make a college team with their basketball knowledge. Thank God they are fantastic athletes, or they'd be flippin' burgers instead of counting millions.

This paragraph is so beautifully expressed that I'm going to use it as my signature for a few days. Hope you don't mind!

 

[sly fly]

This paragraph is so beautifully expressed that I'm going to use it as my signature for a few days. Hope you don't mind!

There we go...

 

[Southpaw]

'Dream Team' really a nightmare

August 16, 2004

BY RICK TELANDER SUN-TIMES COLUMNIST Advertisement






THENS, Greece -- Let's just say it's over.

That would be the United States and the thing formerly known as basketball dominance.

Those items don't go together anymore.

Just like J-Lo and Diddy don't go together anymore.

Not after Puerto Rico -- yes, the same little American island territory that specializes in rum and cruise ship stops, and even has "The Star-Spangled Banner'' as its official anthem -- laid an ungodly 92-73 butt-whipping on the U.S. men's hoops team.

It was remarkably, stunningly, almost humorously devastating.

This is our "Dream Team.''

This is the flag-sporting, bling-bling-wearing, super-yacht-stylin' crew with The Answer and 'Melo, and King James and Starbury aboard.

They're big and they're bad and they're bustin' and they're BEAT!

Puerto Rico?

Why, that basketball behemoth has Elias Ayuso and Rolando Hourruitiner in its starting lineup!

It has a 6-1 point guard named Carlos Arroyo, who plays quietly for the Utah Jazz, and who lit up A.I. and Starbury like they were mini-Olympic torches.

Arroyo led all players with a game-high 24 points and a game-high seven assists, and he outrebounded Starbury, 'Melo and King James combined.

On one startling second-quarter fake and drive to the rack, he came as close to breaking defender Amare Stoudemire's ankles as a person can do without a baseball bat.

Arroyo feinted Stoudemire nearly to the floor and then left young and wide-eyed LeBron James flat-footed and grasping at vapor.

"We were playing the best team in the world,'' said the modest Arroyo, who pulled his jersey out at the end and held it up from his chest to show fellow Puerto Ricans how proud he was. "I told my guys at the start of the game, 'I'm going to run. Run with me.'''

Was he showing up Team USA by yanking out his jersey there in the festive craziness at the end?

"Oh no,'' he said in near shock. "No, no, no. I wouldn't do that.''

Thing is, he didn't have to.

The United States and its super-dupes showed themselves up, showed what has been growing clear for years: our elite basketball philosophy is wrong, wrong, wrong.

They showed us that all the verticals and facials and clear-outs and one-on-one, show-biz, "And 1'' tour moves don't mean a thing when another team won't let you fly to the rim and you don't know how to shoot from midrange or outside and you sure-as-hell don't know how to play with heart, pride or like a team.

"These Olympic Games are not the NBA,'' said 40-year-old, soon-to-retire Puerto Rican starting center Jose Ortiz. He played briefly in the NBA, so he knows.

Everybody knows.

Except our directionless stylers, who shot more air balls, clangers and side-of-the-backboard bricks than a junior high team.

But the truly pathetic aspect to this loss was that the United States plays stupid basketball.

The international game allows free zones, offensive goaltending, has a bigger lane and a much-shorter three-point line than the NBA.

Only morons would not notice this and adjust.

Way to make it happen, coach Larry Brown, reigning NBA champ, genius du jour, only American to both play and coach in the Olympics.

Take a bow, Larry, and join George Karl as another man who couldn't turn all-stars into anything more than loose bolts in a bucket.

And here is U.S. team captain Allen Iverson -- my God, that is a hard thing to say without gagging -- standing before us, stating after the fiasco, "We have to stop shooting so much from the three-point perimeter and try to get the ball inside, where we are dominant.''

This from a man who had just launched 10 threes, missing nine of them.

This from a man who should have noticed the United States couldn't get inside because Puerto Rico was in a collapsed zone, defying the American brick masons to fire from anywhere outside eight feet.

But then it's possible Iverson never observed any of this.

After all, he's the captain who was suspended by Brown for a training game, along with the last two NBA Rookies of the Year James and Stoudemire, for being late to a meeting.

Iverson said that discipline didn't "sit well with me.''

The operative word there being, of course, "me.''

Guess whom the United States played and beat in that July tuneup without A.I., his bad self?

Puerto Rico.

In fact, the United States had played Puerto Rico six times in official or exhibition contests since the summer of 2002, winning them all. They whupped them 96-71 just two weeks ago. Puerto Rico had never beaten the United States.

Until Sunday night in Greece in the opening round of the 2004 Olympic Games. When it mattered.

It's hard to state how mind-boggling this flagellation was.

But consider that the U.S. men's team was the gold medalist in 12 of the 14 Olympics in which it had played and came to Athens with a 109-2 record, lifetime, in Olympic play.

Since NBA players were allowed to play in 1992, the Dream Teamers had been 25-0 in Olympic matches.

But now the United States has lost to Argentina, Serbia-Montenegro and Spain in recent World Championship play.

And here we have Puerto Rico.

Take it, 'Melo.

That would be Carmelo Anthony, standing here shirtless, a red do-rag on his head, a red New York Yankees cap on top of that, sideways, naturally.

"We're guaranteeing a gold medal,'' he crowed in late July. "We're bringing it back.''

Now he says, "We gotta come back ready to play.''

What would it take to shut them all up?

 

[Joe Mama]

IMO there is far too much animosity towards the players and coaches here. I mean these are the guys who were willing to come to the Olympics. It's the selection committee's job to put a TEAM together. There's no problem with having a Shawn Marion, Richard Jefferson, Carmelo Anthony, or LeBron James on the team, but to have them all there is an inexcusable mistake.

Allen Iverson, Stephon Marbury, and Duane Wade are not the right kind of point guards for the international game. Again, having one of film on the team would have been OK, but have the three of them constitute the point guard rotation is a disaster.

IMO Larry Brown has been placed between a rock and a hard place. So have the players. They realize at this point that they are doomed in the international basketball game. I guarantee Shawn Marion , Richard Jefferson, etc. have been instructed not to take those outside shots because Brown knows they cannot hit them with any sort of consistency. Those guys together with Iverson, Marbury, James, Anthony , and Wade can pass the ball and drive all they want, but until they can knock down a few outside shots they aren't going to score on a good , zone defense with any consistency.

good lord - every time Marion's been on the floor he's been better than Jefferson - were his two AIRBALL three pointer's better than Jefferson or his wide-open 15 footer in the fourth that he clanked much better? Give me a break - and as far as Marion's "vaunted" mid-range shot - that too I think is a myth propogated by this board.

No cheesebeef, Shawn Marion's vaunted midrange shot is not a myth that was propagated by this board. Before last season he had one of the most consistent midrange shown shots in the NBA. It was unbelievable considering his lack of proper shooting technique. Nonetheless he was a very , very consistent midrange shooter.

Some people blame the extra muscle he added before last season. Some people blame it on a lack of practice before last season. Whatever it was , Shawn Marion's shot was just off much of last season. Quickly he lost all confidence in the shot. In previous years he could come down on a fast break, stop on a dime and about 10-15 feet and drill a jump shot every time. The last season he would do the same thing, but he knew and we knew the shot was not going in the basket.

Without that midrange shot Shawn Marion is just not nearly as effective. I still wouldn't trade him at this point unless the Suns can get a good big man in return. That's not going to happen.

Joe Mama

 

[elindholm]

I'm going to side with cheesebeef on this one. I never saw what others did in Marion's midrange game, and I made some posts to that effect more than a year ago. He goes through stretches where he makes a lot of shots, but he goes through longer stretches where he misses most of them. I could be wrong, but I don't think anyone outside of Suns-land has ever talked about Marion being a particularly good mid-range shooter.

Statistics don't tell you everything, but they can tell you something. Last year, Marion's FG% on two-point shots (.465) was basically the same as it was in '02-'03 (.473). So that means either that his mid-range shots were just as good (or bad) as they always were, or that somehow he was getting a lot more layups to make up the difference. And since he went to the line even less last year than he did in '02-'03, I'm not too persuaded by the more-layups theory.

I probably agree with Joe Mama that the Suns are not going to get a "good" big man in a trade for Marion, depending on where the bar is set for "good." I have a sneaking suspicion, however, that the Suns may end up settling for a mediocre solution, Majerle/Williams style.

 

[Joe Mama]

I just have to say one quick thing before I get to Shawn Marion's jump shot. If Peter Ramos is only 19 years old than Mutombo is only 35. That guy looks like he's in his late twenties.

I really can't argue with the statistics except to say that he must of he must have made more shots around the basket than in the previous year or two. In the first two seasons with Marbury Shawn Marion's jump shot was very good. I have no way to statistically show it, but I believe that's where the majority of his points came from those seasons.

I can just tell you that as someone who watches every single game and has done so over the last two or three years that there was a noticeable difference in Shawn Marion's consistency and confidence with his jump shot last season. It's as if he is thinking about it too much.

That's my $.02 anyhow.

Joe Mama