Vick or Kolb

[Russ Smith]

If he were to mess up, we are right back where we started. I, for one, think he will be fine.

Huh? So you're saying we could get Vick for free? Obviously to get Vick we'd either have to make some sort of trade, or if'/when he's a free agent outbid others for him. So if we do that and then he screws up and gets expelled, we're not right back where we started, we're worse off.

I'm not sure what you based you're "he'll be fine" on, you haven't really given any indication as to why you think he won't get in any more trouble. Right now the 2 most risky big name players in the NFL IMHO are Vick and Roethlisberger because they probably have the shortest leashes(pun intended) with the commish.

 

[Russ Smith]

It's not an opinion, the court dealt the punishment and he paid in full. The media made more of this crime than any other player who killed or harmed a HUMAN BEING. That isn't opinion, that is a fact. He lost all of his future earnings as well as go through bankruptcy. Out of all the players convicted, he paid the biggest price. Mind you, part of that had nothing to do with the actual killing of the dogs, it was a federal charge (interstate dog fighting) that carried a lot more weight than the actual killing of the dogs.

You'd be surprised at how little time an person or owner will do for killing a dog or dogs.

Like I said, I am a dog lover, animal lover but you shouldn't get the electric chair for something like this. The court dealt the punishment and as soon as he walked out a free man, he paid his debt to society. No ifs and buts about it.

Totally untrue, he's not a "free man" he's a man with a very large target on his back because if he does the wrong thing they can and will remove him from the NFL.

If you told me you can have Vick or Kolb same trade I'd absolutely take Kolb, not necessarily because I think he's a better player, or because he's younger, but because the odds are much greater he'll never be suspended or barred from the NFL.

Vick isn't on a level playing field anymore. If Tom Brady goes on national tv next week and utters a profanity while Pam Oliver is interviewing him people will say it was bad, if Vick did it, he'd probably get fined. Vick has a different set of rules now because of what he did, and it's not just because of the dog fighting it's because he was actively involved in GAMBLING.

 

[Joe L]

Totally untrue, he's not a "free man" he's a man with a very large target on his back because if he does the wrong thing they can and will remove him from the NFL.

If you told me you can have Vick or Kolb same trade I'd absolutely take Kolb, not necessarily because I think he's a better player, or because he's younger, but because the odds are much greater he'll never be suspended or barred from the NFL.

Vick isn't on a level playing field anymore. If Tom Brady goes on national tv next week and utters a profanity while Pam Oliver is interviewing him people will say it was bad, if Vick did it, he'd probably get fined. Vick has a different set of rules now because of what he did, and it's not just because of the dog fighting it's because he was actively involved in GAMBLING.

You're figuratively speaking, I was making a literal statement. Once he walked out a free man ( from confinement), he paid his debt to society...that's not in question. In regards to his career, that is a different story. He is on a leash so to speak, but he has just as much freedom as any player in the league.

 

[Black Jesus]

Huh? So you're saying we could get Vick for free? Obviously to get Vick we'd either have to make some sort of trade, or if'/when he's a free agent outbid others for him. So if we do that and then he screws up and gets expelled, we're not right back where we started, we're worse off.

I'm not sure what you based you're "he'll be fine" on, you haven't really given any indication as to why you think he won't get in any more trouble. Right now the 2 most risky big name players in the NFL IMHO are Vick and Roethlisberger because they probably have the shortest leashes(pun intended) with the commish.

I'd say Pac Man Jones or Donte Stallworth.

I never said he would be free. I would definitely trade a 2nd or 3rd round pick for him.

With our offensive line, we need someone mobile and given that we lost Boldin and Warner, we need another playmaker since Beanie and Hightower have been rendered worthless.

The only reason I prefer him to Kolb is that I have seen what our offensive line does to immobile QBs. They get hammered. I would prefer Kolb due to the presence of Fitz and Breaston, however our O-Line can't protect.

We all complained about not getting McNabb, well guess what, Vick is a rich-man's McNabb.

 

[Russ Smith]

You're figuratively speaking, I was making a literal statement. Once he walked out a free man ( from confinement), he paid his debt to society...that's not in question. In regards to his career, that is a different story. He is on leash so to speak, but he has just as much freedom as any player in the league.

No I'm speaking in the terms you have to look at it if you're an NFL team considering making a trade. Which player is going to give us the best return on our investment. A HUGE part of that with Vick is that he's essentially a guy with 2 strikes in a state that has a 3 strikes law. Hell it wasn't a few months ago he was in the Commish's office over his birthday party, no evidence he did anything wrong, if that was Tom Brady or Max Hall they probably don't even get called by the Commish, let alone have to have a one on one meeting with him.

In the LEGAL system he did his time and he's free, in the NFL he's a guy who's one bad decision from being banned from the NFL, and he's a guy who has a history of making bad decisions.

Why do you think ESPN and others are so loud today asking why Vick was allowed to show up late to the game in Atlanta? Were they hiding him from the crowd, did he do something wrong and they don't want to tell us. I would bet the commish knows the reason why, I bet the Eagles had to inform him before it happened.

He and Ben are in the same boat they may well stay out of trouble the rest of their careers but if they don't, the consequences to the team they play for are huge.

I don't like what Vick did with his dogs but that's not even the issue for me now the issue is he's a massive risk to trade for. Philly got him essentially risk free, if they trade Kolb now I think they're insane, they're putting all their eggs in a very risky basket.

 

[Russ Smith]

I'd say Pac Man Jones or Donte Stallworth.

I never said he would be free. I would definitely trade a 2nd or 3rd round pick for him.

With our offensive line, we need someone mobile and given that we lost Boldin and Warner, we need another playmaker since Beanie and Hightower have been rendered worthless.

The only reason I prefer him to Kolb is that I have seen what our offensive line does to immobile QBs. They get hammered. I would prefer Kolb due to the presence of Fitz and Breaston, however our O-Line can't protect.

We all complained about not getting McNabb, well guess what, Vick is a rich-man's McNabb.

We just disagree because you're apparently believe there's no chance Vick is going to do anything wrong the rest of his career and I think that's a very risk stance to take as an NFL franchise.

Pac Man and Stallworth are obviously huge risks too but neither is a QB so they would cost less to get, and their impact if lost would be less.

I wouldn't touch either of them either for the same reason, it's too risky they will get in trouble again.

 

[oaken1]

would the rest of the team be cool with having Valtrex as a team sponsor?

 

[Joe L]

No I'm speaking in the terms you have to look at it if you're an NFL team considering making a trade. Which player is going to give us the best return on our investment. A HUGE part of that with Vick is that he's essentially a guy with 2 strikes in a state that has a 3 strikes law. Hell it wasn't a few months ago he was in the Commish's office over his birthday party, no evidence he did anything wrong, if that was Tom Brady or Max Hall they probably don't even get called by the Commish, let alone have to have a one on one meeting with him.

In the LEGAL system he did his time and he's free, in the NFL he's a guy who's one bad decision from being banned from the NFL, and he's a guy who has a history of making bad decisions.

Why do you think ESPN and others are so loud today asking why Vick was allowed to show up late to the game in Atlanta? Were they hiding him from the crowd, did he do something wrong and they don't want to tell us. I would bet the commish knows the reason why, I bet the Eagles had to inform him before it happened.

He and Ben are in the same boat they may well stay out of trouble the rest of their careers but if they don't, the consequences to the team they play for are huge.

I don't like what Vick did with his dogs but that's not even the issue for me now the issue is he's a massive risk to trade for. Philly got him essentially risk free, if they trade Kolb now I think they're insane, they're putting all their eggs in a very risky basket.

I agree with just about everything you're saying, I was just addressing what I meant by free.

Vick is under the microscope but like I said, he has his freedom there, too. His freedom will only be trampled on if he does something wrong and is convicted of it...Just like any other player. Vick is further ahead than most players but I wouldn't go as far as saying he has 2 strikes on him. That is to be determined by the severity of the crime...That is if there ever is another crime/crimes.

I think this year Vick is gaining a lot of respect from the league, colleagues, and media. Most favored him as the starter when Kolb went down. Most wanted him to remain the starer, Reid agreed.

The more he travels the long and narrow, the wider that road becomes. He is doing all the right things right now and I hope he continues cause I passionately believe in second chances.

 

[CardLogic]

Vick or Kolb - nice thought; but you know it's not going to happen...

 

[Osbern61]

Vick or Kolb - nice thought; but you know it's not going to happen...

This. If the Eagles unloaded one or the other, they'd be one injury away from out of the race, and beings both Kolb and Vick have had signifigant injuries this year, they would want that insurance.

 

[Russ Smith]

This. If the Eagles unloaded one or the other, they'd be one injury away from out of the race, and beings both Kolb and Vick have had signifigant injuries this year, they would want that insurance.

That's the other thing on Vick, despite his running ability, or because of it, he's also fairly at risk to injury.

 

[TheHopToad]

Both Vick and Kolb have been injured seriously enough to miss multiple games. Philly would be downright stupid to trade either one of them now.

They have a good type of quarterbak controversy--they have TWO starting quality QBs capable of winning games. Don't we wish we had that "problem"...

 

[Black Jesus]

We just disagree because you're apparently believe there's no chance Vick is going to do anything wrong the rest of his career and I think that's a very risk stance to take as an NFL franchise.

Pac Man and Stallworth are obviously huge risks too but neither is a QB so they would cost less to get, and their impact if lost would be less.

I wouldn't touch either of them either for the same reason, it's too risky they will get in trouble again.

Where did I say there is no chance of Vick doing anything wrong...

The only thing I am saying is there is no chance Max Hall leads us to the playoffs. Read it and weep.

Risk vs. Reward, and the inherent risks (be it injury, legal, chemistry) of acquiring Vick, are well worth the reward that he has the potential to deliver (deep playoff run).

Don't think I can word it any better than that. Twist my words as you will.

 

[Black Jesus]

That's the other thing on Vick, despite his running ability, or because of it, he's also fairly at risk to injury.

Anyone is at risk of injury with our offensive line (ask Warner, Hall, DA, etc) at least Vick has the speed and elusive abilities to avoid some of these hits.

 

[Russ Smith]

Where did I say there is no chance of Vick doing anything wrong...

The only thing I am saying is there is no chance Max Hall leads us to the playoffs. Read it and weep.

Risk vs. Reward, and the inherent risks (be it injury, legal, chemistry) of acquiring Vick, are well worth the reward that he has the potential to deliver (deep playoff run).

Don't think I can word it any better than that. Twist my words as you will.

"I, for one, think he will be fine." That was in direct response to my pointing out he was one mistake away from being banned again.

You also said you'd trade a 2nd round pick for him, that implies a great deal of confidence that he won't screw up. You don't trade a high pick for a guy you don't trust.

In a normal division I agree a rookie Hall can't take us to the playoffs, but this isn't a normal division, we might get there anyways. We'd get crushed when we did, but it wouldn't necessarily be because of the QB, it would be because the defense is terrible and our WR's aren't healthy and our OL sucks, AND an inexperienced QB.

Vick is better than Max Hall, but he's also not available, and if he were available it would likely be in part because Philly doesn't trust him.

 

[Russ Smith]

Anyone is at risk of injury with our offensive line (ask Warner, Hall, DA, etc) at least Vick has the speed and elusive abilities to avoid some of these hits.

Have you looked at how many games Vick missed due to injury before his legal problems? And that was the young Vick who was more athletic and bullet proof. Running QB's get hurt as much or more as guys who stand in the pocket, that's why there aren't more running QB's in the NFL. People always say NFL coaches are afraid of change but the reality is they're afraid of their QB getting hurt running.

Vick has played one full season in his NFL career.

 

[Black Jesus]

Have you looked at how many games Vick missed due to injury before his legal problems? And that was the young Vick who was more athletic and bullet proof. Running QB's get hurt as much or more as guys who stand in the pocket, that's why there aren't more running QB's in the NFL. People always say NFL coaches are afraid of change but the reality is they're afraid of their QB getting hurt running.

Vick has played one full season in his NFL career.

There are not more running quarterbacks in the NFL because there are 240 lb LB's that run 4.4 forties and DEs in the 4.6 range.. Not because they get hurt more in the NFL.

Unfortunately injuries are a part of football, you usually don't avoid someone because their past (ask the Ravens). Obviously elbow or shoulder injuries are worrisome for QBs and hip, knee structure for athletes, however muscle tears (that aren't off the bone) and broken bones doesn't equate to damaged goods.

And my statement was "I think he'll be fine." You skewed it though I had said there was "no chance" of any issue arising. Who knows, Max Hall could be accused of arse raping a transvestite hooker while shooting up crystal meth tomorrow. It COULD happen.

"No chance" is an absolute statement, but I do not want to get into the semantics with you, you are clearly already confused with the football side of this debate.

 

[Black Jesus]

McNabb, Vick, McCown, Garcia, Vince Young, Tyler Thigpen, Tony Romo, David Garrard, Matt Cassel, Seneca Wallace, Tim Tebow may disagree with your not-running aspect.

You have to pick your spots in the NFL. Guys are bigger faster stronger, and you have weapons like 6-5 freaks of nature Andre Johnson, Randy Moss, Larry Fitz, Calvin Johnson you can throw to.

That is why a throwing quarterback is important, because every team has an elusive speedy WR and a physical freak and it is is necessary to get the ball in their hands. Which some of these runners have been able to do.

 

[Russ Smith]

There are not more running quarterbacks in the NFL because there are 240 lb LB's that run 4.4 forties and DEs in the 4.6 range.. Not because they get hurt more in the NFL.

Unfortunately injuries are a part of football, you usually don't avoid someone because their past (ask the Ravens). Obviously elbow or shoulder injuries are worrisome for QBs and hip, knee structure for athletes, however muscle tears (that aren't off the bone) and broken bones doesn't equate to damaged goods.

And my statement was "I think he'll be fine." You skewed it though I had said there was "no chance" of any issue arising. Who knows, Max Hall could be accused of arse raping a transvestite hooker while shooting up crystal meth tomorrow. It COULD happen.

"No chance" is an absolute statement, but I do not want to get into the semantics with you, you are clearly already confused with the football side of this debate.

Agreed no chance is an overstatement. But you responded to 3 paragraphs about why it's risky to assume Vick won't get in trouble again by saying

"If he were to mess up, we are right back where we started. I, for one, think he will be fine."

It's not twisting your words or semantics to say you were suggesting he won't screw up again in your opinion. I even asked you WHY you felt that, what reason did you have beyond you like Vick, you didn't respond. I assume you think because he got counseling and did jail time he's learned his lesson but that's just guess work since your only comment was you think he'll be fine.

NFL QB's who run a lot get hurt, everytime there's a running QB in the draft they ask that question, and the answer is always the same, running QB's are exposed to more open field hits and get injured more. I don't know if it's still true but prior to his reinstatement Vick had missed more games due to injury since becoming a starter than almost any other starting QB over that same timeframe. That wasn't bad luck, he ran so much he got exposed to hits.

And again this year how did he get hurt, running. How did Max Hall(who's not really a running QB) nearly get killed, running. Yes you can get injured in the pocket too but the reason NFL coaches want pocket passers is they believe it reduces injury risk.

Yes the Ravens are getting great play from Boldin(I assume that was your reference), I love Boldin, always did, but the odds are against him not missing a game this year due to injury, because of the way he plays, he takes more hits. 2 full seasons in his NFL career, none since 2006. I'd be very surprised if he doesn't miss at least one game this year, I don't want him to, but the odds are he will.

 

[Russ Smith]

McNabb, Vick, McCown, Garcia, Vince Young, Tyler Thigpen, Tony Romo, David Garrard, Matt Cassel, Seneca Wallace, Tim Tebow may disagree with your not-running aspect.

You have to pick your spots in the NFL. Guys are bigger faster stronger, and you have weapons like 6-5 freaks of nature Andre Johnson, Randy Moss, Larry Fitz, Calvin Johnson you can throw to.

That is why a throwing quarterback is important, because every team has an elusive speedy WR and a physical freak and it is is necessary to get the ball in their hands. Which some of these runners have been able to do.

Some of those guys aren't even in the NFL, most of them have been hurt several times in their careers, hell even Thigpen his one year playing regularly missed one full game and parts of 2 others due to injury. Seneca Wallace has started 14 games in his NFL career, Thigpen not much more.

We're not talking about trading for a guy who will never play we're talking about trading for a guy we want to be our starting QB.

If Philly was dumb enough to trade Kolb I'd take him in a heartbeat, they're probably not.

 

[BigRedRage]

Agreed you won't find me defending Ben, remember when they shortened his suspension I started a thread disagreeing with it.

however you're kind of glossing over what Vick actually did. He wasn't just involved in dog fighting, which is illegal, he was involved in illegal gambling on dog fights(which he financed). He broke state and federal law, he lost a huge portion of his contract because the gambling connection violated terms of his NFL contract, not the dog fighting part the gambling part.

Back in January because of the freedom of information act they released more details on Vick's involvement in the case. He didn't just pay the money and bet on the fights. People involved with him said he personally drowned dogs, shot dogs and killed them with a shovel. Vick had testified that dogs injured in fights were killed to be humane, he didn't mention they were drowned or killed with a shovel or hung.And people involved in the fighting ring claimed that dogs who weren't seriously injured were sometimes killed too, because they lost a fight.

Then we have the DEA agent who testified that in 2006 he heard Vick at a party talking about his fondness for HGH, nothing to do with dogfighting but again it's against NFL rules and again Vick denied it, personally I'm inclined to believe the DEA agent over Vick.

People act like he just dabbled in this, he was so into it he actually bought a property specifically to create a "kennel" to do dog fights. They were doing this from 2002 to 2007, when they got caught, this wasn't some fad, he loved doing it.

But my point was that if it was a legal sport you wouldnt have all the malicious stuff going on. According to the laws he was in the wrong and yes his treatment of the animals was inhumane.

Either way its a fine line, I love my dogs and other dogs and also have nothing against dog fighting - IF - you take out the murder and malicious stuff by sending them to kennels to retire.

the gambling and etc...who cares? gambling shouldnt be illegal anyway.

I want lion vs bear and will pay 45 for the PPV. f watching MMA.

 

[BigRedRage]

Care to take a bet on how I feel about that ?

In my position, i dont care what they do, it is their culture and I am not on this planet to judge how people do things, just keep it away from me and i dont give two cents.

The hindus hate that we eat cows and pigs but it aint stopping me

 

[Russ Smith]

But my point was that if it was a legal sport you wouldnt have all the malicious stuff going on. According to the laws he was in the wrong and yes his treatment of the animals was inhumane.

Either way its a fine line, I love my dogs and other dogs and also have nothing against dog fighting - IF - you take out the murder and malicious stuff by sending them to kennels to retire.

the gambling and etc...who cares? gambling shouldnt be illegal anyway.

I want lion vs bear and will pay 45 for the PPV. f watching MMA.

I'm not trying to be argumentative but I don't get why you and blackjesus don't get I'm not really debating opinions about what should or shouldn't be the law on gambling, dog fighting etc. I don't care what you think with regards to Vick because in this thread we're discussing the Cards trading for him.

All that matters is what the NFL rules are. Every year when someone tests positive for pot at the combine people complain pot should be legal(I agree but am voting against it in California I think it has to be federal to have any teeth), and my point is always the same, the kid knew it was against NFL rules and he risked losing draft stock to smoke pot, that tells me that kid has a big question mark on him.

Same with Vick, he's in a position where anything he does now could result in a long suspension or expulsion. It doesn't matter what you or I or anybody else thinks about what he did in the past, it matters what the NFL rules on it are, and what Goodell thinks, and Goodell made it very clear if Vick screws up again he won't get leniency.

I hate what he did before, I personally can't cheer for the guy because of it, and I used to be a big Vick fan, but in this thread I'm not talking politics at all I'm just saying NFL wise it is VERY risky to trade for a guy who is in the position Vick is with Roger Goodell.

 

[BigRedRage]

im for riding the pine with hall but would not oppose trading for vick for the short term. If he does something wrong, back comes hall.

 

[Black Jesus]

I want lion vs bear and will pay 45 for the PPV. f watching MMA.

Hahaha funny timing on this. PoolBoy(aka SUlax44) and I were at the zoo with our niece and there is one exhibit that has a bunch of different animals grazing all day.

My comment to him was, "I'd go to the zoo more than once every 10 years if they turned this exhibit into a yearly battle royal. Couple bears, couple lions, couple cheetahs, couple rhynos, a few orangutans, couple elephants and toss in a few deathrow inmates with stoneage weapons."

I think this would crush the SuperBowl in terms of world viewership.

Could Call it Battle for Noah's Arch!