Von Miller for me

[kerouac9]

I'm wondering why K9 doesn't use these two games to prove his point about how much Von Miller sucks?

"He was named The Big 12 defensive player of the week after the Aggies victory over Texas During Which he picked off the pass that clinched the win, recorded two QB sacks and an additional tackle for a loss, forced one fumble, recovered one fumble and recorded 3 other QB pressures. Miller recorded 9 tackles against LSU in the Cotton Bowl including 3 for losses and one QB sack."

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=70987&draftyear=2011&genpos=OLB

The 5-7 Texas Longhorns? Man, that is a quality opponent. There certainly aren't any draft prospects who got fat playing Texas.

Sincerely,

Jeremy Beal, 5 Tackles, 2 sacks, 5.1 40-yard dash.

 

[Buckybird]

Scattering a sack here or there against a middling Big XII schedule doesn't do any more for me than not showing up against the little guys early.

Daryl Washington was benched in the middle of 2010 for poor play. I like how now you're qualifying his play by saying, "Well, he played pretty well for a guy who only started one year in college and is (apparently for some reason) learning to play the position" which, of course, is the easiest position on the defense to come in and perform at a high level. But whatever.

I don't care if the draft sites rate Von Miller highly or not. I trust what I see on tape, and I see a guy who gets constantly run out of plays and a guy who quits once the ball is past him or headed away from him. Maybe that changes once you give him $20 million guaranteed. I'm sure it will. Bad fit for the system, one-dimensional player in a system that requires it's OLBs to play the run, pass, and rush the passer with equal ability.

Jot it down right now that I don't think Von Miller is going to work out. And then we'll see in three or four years Shane or someone like him calling me out for being a poor evaluator of prospects, and we can point back here. When the Cards draft him, I hope I'm wrong.

I agree K9.

People here freaked out about a couple of free blitzes DWash blew up the QB in preseason. He's got very good athletic skills, but is a liablity in the run game because he's a chaser. Good player that will never be great IMO.

Miller has some of the same skills & same faults as DWash. Skilled & below average in the run game. IMO Miller, Shoefield, DWash & Lenon will get us lit up in the run game...but we have great athletes!!!

 

[Buckybird]

We already get thrashed in the run game. Why not at least be good at getting after the QB?

Why not get to the QB & get better on the edge in defending the run too?

 

[overseascardfan]

Why not get to the QB & get better on the edge in defending the run too?

Here is what I don't get about people saying Miller and Scofield are going to get killed in the run game. Both are OLB's whose primary job in the run game is to seal off the edge. When a RB is going to the edge he is going side to side at an angle making them easier to tackle because they are not coming right at you. Plus, you have the D-line helping so it doesn't all fall on the LB and Wilson playing around the line of scrimmage will also help. I understand about Washington because he plays inside and power runners are coming right at him, that's why it is important to get another thumper at ILB. I feel Scofield and Miller will be fine in the run game, Miller at #5 folks.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Scattering a sack here or there against a middling Big XII schedule doesn't do any more for me than not showing up against the little guys early.

Daryl Washington was benched in the middle of 2010 for poor play. I like how now you're qualifying his play by saying, "Well, he played pretty well for a guy who only started one year in college and is (apparently for some reason) learning to play the position" which, of course, is the easiest position on the defense to come in and perform at a high level. But whatever.

I don't care if the draft sites rate Von Miller highly or not. I trust what I see on tape, and I see a guy who gets constantly run out of plays and a guy who quits once the ball is past him or headed away from him. Maybe that changes once you give him $20 million guaranteed. I'm sure it will. Bad fit for the system, one-dimensional player in a system that requires it's OLBs to play the run, pass, and rush the passer with equal ability.

Jot it down right now that I don't think Von Miller is going to work out. And then we'll see in three or four years Shane or someone like him calling me out for being a poor evaluator of prospects, and we can point back here. When the Cards draft him, I hope I'm wrong.

Well, I stand with the following list of professionals who viewed a lot more tape than you and who selected Von Miller as the Butkus winner:

http://www.thebutkusaward.com/selectionlist.aspx

 

[Buckybird]

Here is what I don't get about people saying Miller and Scofield are going to get killed in the run game. Both are OLB's whose primary job in the run game is to seal off the edge.

If these guys can't hold the edge in the run game, teams will get 5 yds a pop nearly every play so it's critical they can. Miller had those issues in college & I've seen nearly every A&M game for 2 years. He's thin in his lower body & has problems anchoring & getting off blocks & thats a fact. Schoefield is still an unkown not playing a whole lot last year & him being a converted DE. The combination of Miller, DWash, Shoefield, Lenon as a unit leaves holes in our run D.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Scattering a sack here or there against a middling Big XII schedule doesn't do any more for me than not showing up against the little guys early.

Dear lord, are you going to just continue to pull bs out of your ass in this debate?

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/player/profile?playerId=245254

If you bother to actually look at his stats, the guy didn't have "scattering a sack here or there". The guy had sacks in 8 of the last 9 games he played in and THREE multi sack games.

Daryl Washington was benched in the middle of 2010 for poor play. I like how now you're qualifying his play by saying, "Well, he played pretty well for a guy who only started one year in college and is (apparently for some reason) learning to play the position" which, of course, is the easiest position on the defense to come in and perform at a high level. But whatever.

Source on Washington getting benched for poor play? Or is that just what you assume?

I don't care if the draft sites rate Von Miller highly or not. I trust what I see on tape, and I see a guy who gets constantly run out of plays and a guy who quits once the ball is past him or headed away from him.

I see the same thing, but that's a coachable fix. It's also a function of scheme from Texas A&M.

Maybe that changes once you give him $20 million guaranteed. I'm sure it will. Bad fit for the system, one-dimensional player in a system that requires it's OLBs to play the run, pass, and rush the passer with equal ability.

And you think Brooks Reed will perform better? All I see is an undersized defensive end who has no experience playing in a two point stance, who won't help this team this year and probably won't the year after either. At least Miller has experience, superior physical traits, and has a basis to build on. Other than Justin Houston, all the other prospects are projections, and Justin Houston doesn't have the body of work that Miller does.

Jot it down right now that I don't think Von Miller is going to work out. And then we'll see in three or four years Shane or someone like him calling me out for being a poor evaluator of prospects, and we can point back here. When the Cards draft him, I hope I'm wrong.

Better than evaluating guys based on what their Madden rating is

But seriously, Miller will help the team get to the QB right away. He'll be like Simeon was, a guy that primarily makes plays rushing the passer, but struggles a bit doing everything else.

 

[ARodg]

Geez, I thought I hated Von Miller.

 

[Buckybird]

and Justin Houston doesn't have the body of work that Miller does

I think it's more even than what many here think. IMO Houston's game & size translate to the NFL game better as a complete 3-4 OLB.

Houston Tkls Sacks Pressures Tkls for loss
'09-'10 39/67 7.5/10 18/44 15/18.5


Miller 48/68 17/10.5 not found 21/17.5

 

[Krangodnzr]

Geez, I thought I hated Von Miller.

I'm not his biggest fan, but few players have no warts.

Showing up around 245 at the combine and displaying his elite physical characteristics, IMO proves he belongs at the top of the list of 3-4 playmakers.

I've been a big proponent of Robert Quinn, but I'm starting to come to the realization that we need immediate impact. Quinn won't provide that, and likely, won't be a good starter for 2-3 years down the road. Von Miller could be good right away, and even if he has a little lower upside than Quinn, his downside isn't as extreme.

 

[kerouac9]

Dear lord, are you going to just continue to pull bs out of your ass in this debate?

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/player/profile?playerId=245254

If you bother to actually look at his stats, the guy didn't have "scattering a sack here or there". The guy had sacks in 8 of the last 9 games he played in and THREE multi sack games.

That's fantastic. I'm sure that blowing up the Big XII in a year when the entire conference was down is very impressive to you. Lots of good offensive linemen in the Big XII this year.

Source on Washington getting benched for poor play? Or is that just what you assume?

I swear to God I read it somewhere. A quick Google search doesn't reveal anything, but when you search for "Washington Poor Play" you end up getting a lot of links to articles about the Redskins. I'll dig up the source when someone posts the link where Max Hall's agent says that he was offered a larger signing bonus by the multiple teams who extended him UDFA interest.

I see the same thing, but that's a coachable fix. It's also a function of scheme from Texas A&M.

The function of the scheme at A&M is for players to quit on a play? Isn't run defense more a function of "want to" than it is any scheme to begin with?

And you think Brooks Reed will perform better? All I see is an undersized defensive end who has no experience playing in a two point stance, who won't help this team this year and probably won't the year after either. At least Miller has experience, superior physical traits, and has a basis to build on. Other than Justin Houston, all the other prospects are projections, and Justin Houston doesn't have the body of work that Miller does.

I think that Brooks Reed will perform 85% as well in all three phases of the game for 20% of the salary and we'd still have a player available at the #5 overall pick in the draft. This draft doesn't have a ton of edge pass rushers worth a Top 5 grade; if you are settled on drafting an edge rusher in the Top 10, you're forced to pick Miller (which is part of the problem--I hate being cornered into making draft picks). But if you're looking to give yourself a lot of chances with an edge rusher as well as to develop a similar guy you have on the roster in O'Brien Schofield (I'm not sure why people are ignoring his presence on the roster right now, as DJ explains repeatedly), then don't let yourself be cornered into the only guy available to you.

Better than evaluating guys based on what their Madden rating is

But seriously, Miller will help the team get to the QB right away. He'll be like Simeon was, a guy that primarily makes plays rushing the passer, but struggles a bit doing everything else.

With a Top 5 pick, I don't care if he'll help right away. That's how we ended up with Levi Brown, isn't it? I want a guy who can be a cornerstone for the franchise for the next 10 years. That's why that pick is so valuable. You should never draft for next year's concerns--it's how you end up with Levi Brown, J.J. Arrington, Antrel Rolle, Alan Branch, and Daryl Washington.

You're signing your Top 5 pick to a five- or six-year contract. Don't you want to worry about how he'll be in years 3-6 instead of year 1?

Honestly, seeing how Von Miller rushes the passer, I don't even think he'll be that good right away. This isn't Madden where QBs just keep dropping back into the pocket. You saw it a lot in the Texas game (you can see it on YouTube), but when the QB stepped up in the pocket or away from Miller's side, he just gave up on the play.

I don't want to use my Top 5 pick on that guy. I hate seeing that the Cards have settled on their guy this early in the process.

 

[kerouac9]

Krang, where do you see another 10 lbs coming on this frame?

You must be registered for see images attach

 

[Dr. Jones]

He's #2 for me.... Love the idea of his speed off the end. And you know Graves is man-crushing on his character.

Peterson is the obvious choice though if he is there and we dont get a good trade option. The electricity he provides is perfect for us, and coupled with Toler & DRC can give the pass rush an extra half-second to rush the passer atleast.

My #1 choice though is a trade with Minny for the #12, 4th or 5th, and maybe their #1 next year (No #1 next year then #2 or #3 this year). They can get Newton or Gabbert (1 should be there) and be a contender this year.

 

[TJ]

I think it's a mistake to draft a 40 time instead of a football player with the #5 overall pick

So you'd draft him at #5 if he ran a 5.12?

Seemed to me he did fine against everyone else and had a great Senior Bowl

You must hate him as much as the rest of us hate Cam Newton

 

[TJ]

Peterson is the obvious choice though if he is there and we dont get a good trade option. The electricity he provides is perfect for us, and coupled with Toler & DRC can give the pass rush an extra half-second to rush the passer atleast.

I understand what you're trying to say, but wouldnt it make more sense to draft a linebacker to improve your pass rush? Coverage to improve pressure on the QB is secondary to an OLB shedding blocks and making the QB uncomfortable in the pocket and/or throwing him to the ground. As a matter of fact, a good pass rush can force the QB to make split second decisions, which can end up becoming bad throws and interceptions.

 

[Chopper0080]

I think it's a mistake to draft a 40 time instead of a football player with the #5 overall pick when there are legit football players at the same position available in rounds 2 and 3 who I think will be better.

Stephen F. Austin and Florida International must have pretty good offensive lines, since they shut out Von Miller. You really want your Top 5 pick to have no impact against the lowest level of competition.

Drafting a 40 time in Daryl Washington seemed to work out impressively. Hopefully they'll be the best tandem in the NFL in pushing guys out of bounds following the first down.

Isn't that the entire argument for drafting Robert Quinn at 5?

 

[Chopper0080]

Krang, where do you see another 10 lbs coming on this frame?

You must be registered for see images attach

His upper body will fill out when his muscles fill in. His legs are thick enough to support more upper body strength, which he will need to add.

 

[Bobcat]

Let's see. Who was the NFL Defensive Rookie of the Year for 2010?

Not Daryl Washington as some Las Vegas fellow predicted.

Please Whiz benched him at the Start of the season Guys; this showed others in the league to not think of him as a Rookie of the Year Prospect. Screw Whiz he is our Cancer. The man has no clue how to coach young talent. They first must be Pitts rejects...!!!!

 

[TJ]

Daryl Washington was benched in the middle of 2010 for poor play

There are no reports that he was benched in the middle of 2010 for poor play. I think you are making this up. It had more to do with Hayes coming off the PUP than anything.

Also, even though he spent a good portion of the season coming off the bench, he had a good stat line all things considered (78 tkls, 1 sack, 1 int, 6 TFLs).

I dont find anyone else except yourself who really thinks this guy is going to fail.

 

[187]

Note to self: K9 absolutely hates fast LB's from Texas that don't play for the longhorns. The only downside to drafting VM will be the endless amount of bitching throughout the rest of the offseason.

 

[Krangodnzr]

That's fantastic. I'm sure that blowing up the Big XII in a year when the entire conference was down is very impressive to you. Lots of good offensive linemen in the Big XII this year.

So Miller only played one year? What about his junior year where he posted 17 sacks against a strong schedule? You act as if he played in the MAC, WAC, MWC. I'm not a fan of the Big 12, but it's a pretty ******** argument that it's a weak conference. Many good players come out of the Big 12.

I swear to God I read it somewhere. A quick Google search doesn't reveal anything, but when you search for "Washington Poor Play" you end up getting a lot of links to articles about the Redskins. I'll dig up the source when someone posts the link where Max Hall's agent says that he was offered a larger signing bonus by the multiple teams who extended him UDFA interest.

And when you called me on the Max Hall comment, I fessed up that I couldn't find it and must have heard it from someone else (I think I heard it from Russ Smith). But I don't see you admitting that there is no documentation to back up that claim.

The function of the scheme at A&M is for players to quit on a play? Isn't run defense more a function of "want to" than it is any scheme to begin with?

Quit? Where has he quit? Run himself of out plays? Yes. Quit? No.

I think that Brooks Reed will perform 85% as well in all three phases of the game for 20% of the salary and we'd still have a player available at the #5 overall pick in the draft.

This is the same philosophy people spouted off about for letting Dansby walk. How'd that work out? And you "think" he'll perform at 85% in all three phases even though Reed has NO experience playing standing up, isn't as good physically. Reed weighs 17 pounds more than Miller, but isn't as explosive nor as fast.

This draft doesn't have a ton of edge pass rushers worth a Top 5 grade; if you are settled on drafting an edge rusher in the Top 10, you're forced to pick Miller (which is part of the problem--I hate being cornered into making draft picks). But if you're looking to give yourself a lot of chances with an edge rusher as well as to develop a similar guy you have on the roster in O'Brien Schofield (I'm not sure why people are ignoring his presence on the roster right now, as DJ explains repeatedly), then don't let yourself be cornered into the only guy available to you.

He's not the only guy, he's just the guy best suited for what we need. Justin Houston is another guy well suited for what we need. Schofield still factors into our plans, but let's not bank on a late round pick who missed a good chunk of last season.

With a Top 5 pick, I don't care if he'll help right away. That's how we ended up with Levi Brown, isn't it? I want a guy who can be a cornerstone for the franchise for the next 10 years. That's why that pick is so valuable. You should never draft for next year's concerns--it's how you end up with Levi Brown, J.J. Arrington, Antrel Rolle, Alan Branch, and Daryl Washington.

But teams do.....CONSISTENTLY. Go back 20 years and look at how often a player was not a need pick in the top 5 and you'll see it just doesn't happen often. That's why you can't blow it. All you're mentioning are bad draft picks; every single player you mention there was a good player at the position that we could've drafted that would fill a need and was best player available.

This line of thinking probably strengthens your dislike of Von Miller as a prospect. Overall I'd probably like a trade down and a selection of Miller/Houston.

 

[overseascardfan]

If these guys can't hold the edge in the run game, teams will get 5 yds a pop nearly every play so it's critical they can. Miller had those issues in college & I've seen nearly every A&M game for 2 years. He's thin in his lower body & has problems anchoring & getting off blocks & thats a fact. Schoefield is still an unkown not playing a whole lot last year & him being a converted DE. The combination of Miller, DWash, Shoefield, Lenon as a unit leaves holes in our run D.

I can see having trouble when the OG pulls but Miller and Scofield have the speed to get to the edge, so if a RB tries to bounce outside Miller and Scofield will get to him. On pulls they are going to have to try and make the RB cut back inside and hopefully a DL can get to them. But these guys ability to get to the QB more than compensates.

 

[Cardiac]

K9 did hear that Washington was benched due to "poor play". It happened when Hayes came off the PUP list and was given back his starters job. I forget how many games it took for the coaches to realize that Hayes was worse then Washington so he was given back his starters role.

Same basic thing with Dumpster Dan in that as the season wore on and chances of making the playoffs diminished and the rooks were improving they got more playing time.
Whiz has made similar comments on both Washington and Williams that they really started coming on strong at the end of the year.

IMWO some of this was basic coach speak and we all know how Whiz likes to bring rookies along slowly. The fact that Lenon and Hayes were the starters leads us to 2 conclussions. Washington wasn't playing well or rookies don't get the same chance to play as vets under Whiz.

 

[juza76]

K9 did hear that Washington was benched due to "poor play". It happened when Hayes came off the PUP list and was given back his starters job. I forget how many games it took for the coaches to realize that Hayes was worse then Washington so he was given back his starters role.

Same basic thing with Dumpster Dan in that as the season wore on and chances of making the playoffs diminished and the rooks were improving they got more playing time.
Whiz has made similar comments on both Washington and Williams that they really started coming on strong at the end of the year.

IMWO some of this was basic coach speak and we all know how Whiz likes to bring rookies along slowly. The fact that Lenon and Hayes were the starters leads us to 2 conclussions. Washington wasn't playing well or rookies don't get the same chance to play as vets under Whiz.

rookies don't get the same chance to play as vets under Whiz.is more easy to bench a rookie thena veteran..he said that he likes competitions..washington did some mistakes but he show the talent to be the starter..he made 80 taclkles..and he didnt play 5 games..and in the other 11 he didnt play all the snaps like lenon