Warner a Fraud?

[Russ Smith]

Graves also said that the trip to SF got both sides to get the deal done.

The trip just re-balanced the scales in negotiations. Warner screwed up his side of things by being openly loyal to the Cardinals last year and they tried to use it against him. And wouldn't budge on it thinking they had him over a barrel with no options. He just showed them that he did have options.

If Warner and his agent were true *****, they would have done everything the same but with the Rams instead of the 49ers. Imagine that for just a minute.

If Warner truly wanted to stick it to the Cardinals and stroke his own ego the Rams would have been the choice for such games. No one ever thought that Warner would end up with the 49ers but it still got Graves and the Cardinals to budge. And I still don't think Warner was using the 49ers in the sense that they didn't know what the situation was.

From all accounts, he only went to find out if playing somewhere else would appeal to him at this stage of his career. He knew right away that the 49ers wouldn't be a fit and after being schmoozed, he told them that he was going to have to sleep on it and went back to Arizona. If the 49ers are butt-hurt about that then they are overreacting. If Warner and Bartlestein made promises that they never intended to keep then I agree that it's wrong. Nothing in Warner's past would indicate him doing such a thing though.

Even after all is said and done he didn't get something that is earth shattering and crippling to the Cardinals salary cap.

The media here says that "sources" said the 49ers offered 2 years 30 million, 20 guaranteed. When those rumors broke, that's when McCloughan started emailing reporters to tell them we absolutely did NOT make that offer, there was no formal offer just discussions of general salary parameters.

If we take Kurt at his word, the minute god told him to stay in Arizona he should have told the 49ers to stop the limo and take him back to the airport. At that point it was over, god had told him what to do so what's the point of continuing? the only reason to stay and listen is to try and drive up the Cards offer because god has already told him where to go so that question is completely answered.

Unless god also told him to wait and he'd get a better offer.

 

[moklerman]

If we take Kurt at his word, the minute god told him to stay in Arizona he should have told the 49ers to stop the limo and take him back to the airport.

I thought Kurt's word was 45 minutes into the talks he had decided that the Cardinals would remain the better fit. This is in retrospect too. While one is having that talk, I don't see it too hard to believe that he was hearing them out. Not to mention, he probably wanted to talk to his wife about it afterward.

I know you won't agree with any of that by the mocking tone you set with your post but I thought I'd present the possibilities.

Seems like the QB of one's team would be given a little more slack. It sure seems like Warner has been outspoken about how much he likes, appreciates and sticks up for the Cardinals. At worst, I would think at least Cardinals fans would "want" to believe it was all true.

If this were a 49ers MB I could understand some of the venom but I've never seen such altruism toward another team like this. A division opponent no less.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

If this were a 49ers MB I could understand some of the venom but I've never seen such altruism toward another team like this. A division opponent no less.

I'd say that is one thing that sets us apart from other message boards.

 

[moklerman]

I'd say that is one thing that sets us apart from other message boards.

I suppose there has been a consistent blasting of players who are trying to get better contracts.

I can't recall other situations where this board sides with the opposing team's reports of a situation over the Cardinals side of things though.

 

[Russ Smith]

I thought Kurt's word was 45 minutes into the talks he had decided that the Cardinals would remain the better fit. This is in retrospect too. While one is having that talk, I don't see it too hard to believe that he was hearing them out. Not to mention, he probably wanted to talk to his wife about it afterward.

I know you won't agree with any of that by the mocking tone you set with your post but I thought I'd present the possibilities.

Seems like the QB of one's team would be given a little more slack. It sure seems like Warner has been outspoken about how much he likes, appreciates and sticks up for the Cardinals. At worst, I would think at least Cardinals fans would "want" to believe it was all true.

If this were a 49ers MB I could understand some of the venom but I've never seen such altruism toward another team like this. A division opponent no less.

Kurt said 45 minutes into his visit, while sitting in the limo, he told Brenda that god had told him to stay with the Cards. Apparently Brenda wasn't sure God knew best because she told Kurt to "keep an open mind and listen to their offer don't be hasty." Later during teh limo ride Kurt again told her god keeps telling me to stay in Arizona.

So if we take Kurt at his word, less than hour into the visit he already knew he was not going to sign with the 49ers yet he continued to meet with them for several hours as they did their dog and pony show, and let his agent leak reports of a huge offer which the 49ers deny.

And yes I do get tired of athletes doing the it's not the money it's principle thing, and then using one team to get more money from another. Kurt just one upped that by going out and saying I took less money, the 49ers said they never made him an offer, and now he's claiming god told him where to sign.

Why not just be honest, I have a good thing with the Cards, I just wanted more money. I would respect someone being honest like that.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I suppose there has been a consistent blasting of players who are trying to get better contracts.

I can't recall other situations where this board sides with the opposing team's reports of a situation over the Cardinals side of things though.

Only because it is rare when the Cards' players are using another team for leverage, not vice versa.

 

[Russ Smith]

I suppose there has been a consistent blasting of players who are trying to get better contracts.

I can't recall other situations where this board sides with the opposing team's reports of a situation over the Cardinals side of things though.

The Cards confirmed that SF offered 30 million 2 years 20 guaranteed?

I don't see anybody confirming that, even on NFL Network they said their sources claim no such offer was made.

I already explained why I believe the local media, becuase they cover the 49ers for a living, they deal with McCloughan and Singletary and others all the time. They have good working relationships with them. john Clayton was the ESPN guy breaking all the rumors and it's been widely reported he talks directly with Warner's agent. It seems pretty obvious what was going on, everytime Bartlestein wanted to change the status quo, he just called up Clayton and fed him another story to leak.

I have no problem with Kurt playing the game to get more money, I just don't like that he keeps denying he played it and is even using god as part of his story.

Do you REALLY believe god told Kurt Warner to sign with the Cards? Do you really believe god cares what NFL team Kurt plays for?

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Do you REALLY believe god told Kurt Warner to sign with the Cards? Do you really believe god cares what NFL team Kurt plays for?

Ding. Ding. Ding!

 

[moklerman]

Do you REALLY believe god told Kurt Warner to sign with the Cards? Do you really believe god cares what NFL team Kurt plays for?

I believe he believes it. And I know for a fact that Warner said they received an offer from the 49ers in his press conference. Maybe he's a liar but I don't have any reason to think so.

I don't believe in any of that stuff. For me, there is no God or Odin or Poseidon or any of that stuff. But I know a lot of people truly believe there are. I would guess that Warner isn't saying that God spoke directly to him but that the decision was God's will.

It doesn't really matter because I think the fact that he is outspoken about such things is the real thorn in the sides of many people. Those getting this worked up and hateful about the situation would seem to have something else going on.

I could understand it a little more if people were upset that he gave the 49ers the time of day. Like being betrayed or something but this is about Warner not treating the 49ers the right way(in their opinion)?

Warner's agent may have been doing all of this just to play games but I can honestly say that I think Warner wouldn't have gone if he had absolutely no intention of listening to what the 49ers had to say. He obviously didn't like what he heard but I don't think he was misleading them in any way. If he didn't have the option to come back to the Cardinals I think he would play for them over retiring.

 

[Russ Smith]

I believe he believes it. And I know for a fact that Warner said they received an offer from the 49ers in his press conference. Maybe he's a liar but I don't have any reason to think so.

I don't believe in any of that stuff. For me, there is no God or Odin or Poseidon or any of that stuff. But I know a lot of people truly believe there are. I would guess that Warner isn't saying that God spoke directly to him but that the decision was God's will.

It doesn't really matter because I think the fact that he is outspoken about such things is the real thorn in the sides of many people. Those getting this worked up and hateful about the situation would seem to have something else going on.

I could understand it a little more if people were upset that he gave the 49ers the time of day. Like being betrayed or something but this is about Warner not treating the 49ers the right way(in their opinion)?

Warner's agent may have been doing all of this just to play games but I can honestly say that I think Warner wouldn't have gone if he had absolutely no intention of listening to what the 49ers had to say. He obviously didn't like what he heard but I don't think he was misleading them in any way. If he didn't have the option to come back to the Cardinals I think he would play for them over retiring.

I'm playing a little devils advocate here but if Kurt believes God told him to pick the Cards, why did Brenda tell him to keep an open mind and listen to what the 49ers had to offer? Wouldn't Brenda be convinced when her husband says "god told me?" Can't we assume that what Brenda meant was ok you want to stay in Arizona but lets still at least pretend we're interested since they flew us here on a private jet?

As for why I believe McCloughan over Warner and his agent, simple, the reason for Warner's side to lie is obvious, they kept saying we're not using the 49ers but might have done so. McCloughan really has no reason to lie he was going to be criticized no matter the outcome. Even if he got Warner he'd be called irresponsible with money. Kurt had every reason to say there's a bigger offer out there, it allows him to say I'm such a good guy I took less money. There's really not any reason for SF to deny making an offer, it doesn't make them look bad if Kurt turned down more cash, everyone assumed Kurt wanted to be here all along. A lot of their fan base didn't want Warner, it wasn't exactly something the Bay Area was excited about, most assumed it was Kurt wanting leverage, and most didn't think a 38 year old pass happy QB fit their team anyways.

 

[DemsMyBoys]

Do you REALLY believe god told Kurt Warner to sign with the Cards? Do you really believe god cares what NFL team Kurt plays for?

Yes, I really believe that God told Kurt to sign with the Cards and I really do believe that God cares what NFL team Kurt plays for.

I don't know Kurt. Have only had the pleasure of seeing him play. But as a Christian I prayed to God to ask Him to guide Kurt and Brenda and his agent and the F.O. It's what we Christians do. It's how we roll.

No apologies.

 

[phillycard]

How bout the Niners being frauds here?! They attempt to sign Kurt Warner for the sole purpose of weakening us. They knew damn well they had no one for him to throw too, have a run predicated offense, and have a scheme that doesn't favor Kurt. Not to mention they squawked last year down the stretch about how well Shaun Hill played. FOH! If the $$ was reasonable, I think they would have done it, and that would have spoke volumes about their incompetence.

 

[moklerman]

As for why I believe McCloughan over Warner and his agent, simple, the reason for Warner's side to lie is obvious, they kept saying we're not using the 49ers but might have done so.

I still have a hard time with the idea of Warner outright lying through his teeth. The press conference posted on the official site has him definitively saying yes, the 49ers made him an offer.

I also don't know why, if it was in question at all why Graves and Co. couldn't have just called the 49ers to ask them. We don't really think the Cardinals relied solely on Warner and his agent in their decision to bump up their offer?

Although I see your point of view I think it's just as understandable that the 49ers are now trying to save face. You don't want to play for us? Well, we didn't really want you anyway. Why roll out the red carpet, keep him there for 9 hours, have him take a physical, sit him down with the coach, take him out to dinner, etc. if they weren't going to make him an offer? It sounds a lot less reasonable to go through all of that and then not make a pitch.

Add that to the Cardinals giving him $19M in guarantees and I think it's fairly obvious there was something being offered, verbally or in some fashion, by the 49ers.

No one will ever truly know of Warner's actual motivations but I doubt that he's lying about there being some kind of offer.

 

[Redbird 78]

I also don't know why, if it was in question at all why Graves and Co. couldn't have just called the 49ers to ask them. We don't really think the Cardinals relied solely on Warner and his agent in their decision to bump up their offer?

C'mon. If I'm an employer and Joe Blow is interviewing for a job and tells me that company x has an outstanding offer to him for $150K, you don't seriously think I can call company x and ask, "This is company y. We're thinking of hiring Joe Blow. Did you give him an offer for $150K?"

Seriously?

 

[Russ Smith]

I still have a hard time with the idea of Warner outright lying through his teeth. The press conference posted on the official site has him definitively saying yes, the 49ers made him an offer.

I also don't know why, if it was in question at all why Graves and Co. couldn't have just called the 49ers to ask them. We don't really think the Cardinals relied solely on Warner and his agent in their decision to bump up their offer?

Although I see your point of view I think it's just as understandable that the 49ers are now trying to save face. You don't want to play for us? Well, we didn't really want you anyway. Why roll out the red carpet, keep him there for 9 hours, have him take a physical, sit him down with the coach, take him out to dinner, etc. if they weren't going to make him an offer? It sounds a lot less reasonable to go through all of that and then not make a pitch.

Add that to the Cardinals giving him $19M in guarantees and I think it's fairly obvious there was something being offered, verbally or in some fashion, by the 49ers.

No one will ever truly know of Warner's actual motivations but I doubt that he's lying about there being some kind of offer.

Collusion is against the rules, both teams could and would get in big trouble if they were comparing contract notes to keep Kurt's salary down.

I'm sure you are having a hard time believing Kurt would lie, much easier for you to believe McCloughan is lying than Kurt, you're not a fan of McCloughan.

Both sides were playing a game here, SF trying to make us weaker if they could, if not make it harder for us to sign Warner. Warner and his agent using SF to up the offer.

In the end I'm glad Kurt chose to stay but it doesn't mean I believe everything he and his agent say.

 

[Dayman]

http://blogs.mercurynews.com/49ers/...peaks-49ers-gm-does-not-shut-door-on-to-talk/

Murph: The report was that you guys offered $20 million guaranteed, at least in a ballpark conversation. He took $19 million guaranteed from Arizona. Does that make you guys feel somewhat jilted that he would take less money than your guys’ generous offer?
McCloughan: “It’s not correct. Again, no formal offer was made. And even with our discussions, $20 million guaranteed was never talked about. So that’s wrong. They stepped up and they had a player they wanted and they guaranteed a lot of money to an older player, which, good for them if they think that gives them the best chance to win. But again from our standpoint, there was no formal offer. I don’t feel shamed at all by what we went through here. I don’t feel Kurt was playing us to get more money at all. I think, again, it was a win-win for us. I’m excited we did it. I’m glad we did it.”

Much more at the link.

 

[moklerman]

Collusion is against the rules, both teams could and would get in big trouble if they were comparing contract notes to keep Kurt's salary down.

I don't know the letter of collusion rules/laws but "did you offer Kurt a contract" doesn't seem to be crossing any lines. "How much" would cross the line but I don't see a problem with saying they've made an offer or are considering making an offer. Maybe it is, but I don't think it is.

In the end I'm glad Kurt chose to stay but it doesn't mean I believe everything he and his agent say.

I understand the skepticism but Warner has never been one to play games with contracts or in what he is thinking. Maybe he was desperate and broke from his usual way of doing things. It's possible. The thing that's bugging me about the he said/he said is McCloughan keeps denying specifics and saying things like "formal" offer.

Dayman's Mercury News link really makes it looks like McCloughan is practicing spin. It was a win-win? He's glad they did it? Maybe both sides are fudging the truth but Warner's comments seem to be straight forward to me while McCloughan seems to be politicking.

 

[moklerman]

from the link:

We were still kind of working through the process of ‘listen, is there a fit? If there is a fit, what number can we go to, how many years do we want to do it for?’ and go from there. So we were still in the process of doing that, but there was no formal offer made.”

So years and numbers were talked about but no "formal" offer was made. Seems like semantics.

 

[Linderbee]

Do you REALLY believe god told Kurt Warner to sign with the Cards? Do you really believe god cares what NFL team Kurt plays for?

Well, when viewing things from the Christian perspective, why wouldn't God care what team Kurt plays for? I know, we're not in P&R, and I seriously considered sending this via pm...

But, again, from a Christian viewpoint, God loves each & every one of us exactly the same. The fact that Kurt is rich beyond most of our wildest dreams does not make God love him less, or care less about him. God has many gifts for each of us; all we have to do is ask. So yes, if Kurt prayed to God for direction, God surely would have given it to him.

 

[Stout]

Well, when viewing things from the Christian perspective, why wouldn't God care what team Kurt plays for? I know, we're not in P&R, and I seriously considered sending this via pm...

But, again, from a Christian viewpoint, God loves each & every one of us exactly the same. The fact that Kurt is rich beyond most of our wildest dreams does not make God love him less, or care less about him. God has many gifts for each of us; all we have to do is ask. So yes, if Kurt prayed to God for direction, God surely would have given it to him.

The height of hubris, to me, is to think that all you have to do is pray and figure that God will drop everything and speak directly to you. Maybe to his son Jesus, maybe to saints, maybe to people in outrageous circumstances, yes, God might talk to them. Do I believe, if Kurt asked God what to do about his contract, that God personally answered him. Wow, NO!!! Why? Grand scheme of things...it isn't that important.

 

[Linderbee]

The height of hubris, to me, is to think that all you have to do is pray and figure that God will drop everything and speak directly to you. Maybe to his son Jesus, maybe to saints, maybe to people in outrageous circumstances, yes, God might talk to them. Do I believe, if Kurt asked God what to do about his contract, that God personally answered him. Wow, NO!!! Why? Grand scheme of things...it isn't that important.

Again, God loves each of us the same. No one is more important than anyone else, and none of us are worthy, but we're loved by God anyway. If you have kids, do you love any of them more than another? I have 3 of my own, and dcr's 2. What's important to any of them is important to me, regardless of their circumstances.

 

[perivolaki]

I still have a hard time with the idea of Warner outright lying through his teeth. The press conference posted on the official site has him definitively saying yes, the 49ers made him an offer.

I also don't know why, if it was in question at all why Graves and Co. couldn't have just called the 49ers to ask them. We don't really think the Cardinals relied solely on Warner and his agent in their decision to bump up their offer?

I don't know if it was an ouright lie but I do remember Warner saying that he would either come back and play for the Cardinals or retire. Once he says that and then starts shopping himself around I think thats when I started to question if he might have it within him to say one thing while doing another. I don't think he was lying but he was able to twist it ina way that was in his own self interest. Not much different from a lot of people I suppose.

I think what changed in the contract negotiations was a counter offer by the Warner team and the uncertainty of if the 9ers were going to seriously go after him. I also think you're a little naive to think that a team that is in competition with the Cardinals for a player will willingly give over exactly what they are offering in the way of a contract. I mean the Cardinals might as well ask them how high they are willing to go and then we could offer one dollar more.

 

[Stout]

Again, God loves each of us the same. No one is more important than anyone else, and none of us are worthy, but we're loved by God anyway. If you have kids, do you love any of them more than another? I have 3 of my own, and dcr's 2. What's important to any of them is important to me, regardless of their circumstances.

Yeah, but I seriously doubt, if I asked God if I should remain a social worker or get back into acting, that he'd answer me. God doesn't run our lives; we do.

 

[moklerman]

Not much different from a lot of people I suppose.

I won't argue that Warner wasn't foolish. He made a mistake by trusting the Cardinals when he was drunk on Kool-Aid. Now that everything's settled though, didn't he stick to his word? I don't recall him ever saying he wouldn't talk to other teams or see if/what his market value is.

I also think you're a little naive to think that a team that is in competition with the Cardinals for a player will willingly give over exactly what they are offering in the way of a contract.

The debate has been "if" there was an offer from SF. I would think that wouldn't be guarded information between the two teams.

God doesn't run our lives; we do.

Warner said he "felt" God speak to him 45 minutes into the process in SF. Just like much of religion, it's a gloriously ambiguous statement. It sounds a lot like God spoke to him but how does one "feel" being spoken to?

He's a bible-thumper. It's just how he talks. People are trying to look way too deep and trying way too hard to find fault.

I happen to get it. He was in a tough place in his life, prospects looking dim, no money, etc. He met his future wife, got sold on God and things(coincidentally?) started to turn around for him. He became a believer and to him, belief has "led" him to...how many millions of dollars, kids, fame, happiness, etc.? God truly exists for Warner and family.

I think he is a different bird to start with and the uber religion aspect just adds to the story. But I don't think he's a phony. He's been preaching this same message since he was with Amsterdam and I'm pretty sure Iowa. I haven't seen too many of their tapes.

 

[LACardsJoe]

Geez, I thought these Warner threads would have been laid to rest by now. At least they are on the Main Board, time to focus on Dansby, Wilson, Q, and some FA's guys!