Warner taregeted by others

[perivolaki]

Very good point. But, players don't normally just fall off a cliff in performance when age becomes an issue. It's a gradual decrease in performance & ability. I see no signs of regression w/ Warner at all, in fact, he seemingly is getting better. An anomaly for sure, but Warner's whole career is an anomaly.

Has Warner lost significant arm strength, accuracy, reading ability, leadership qualities, increase in injuries, inability to recover from hits, and maybe most importantly, has Warner lost the confidence of his teammates and/or coaches? If the answers are no, then we keep riding this horse until it breaks down. Remember, we're talking about a 2 year contract here, not 10 years. If Warner can take us to the SB again, does it really matter how old he is?

Most never thought Warner could take us to the SB this year at age 37! All of the same arguments about his age were being made this last year. In fact, that argument has been made since he left St. Louis. Until I see evidence to the contrary, the whole age ruse is a moot point.

The teams that just keep riding the horse till it breaks down are the teams that fall off the cliff themselves. It sounds harsh but teams have to cut the cord before a player breaks down.

The successful teams figure out when that is going to happen and make the break.

And I do think age is catching Warner. I have season tickets with my son and I remember the last game of the season when Leinart got a chance to come in. He threw a pass on a rope from about 40 yards out into the end zone that the receiver wasn't able to corral but the pass was impressive from a strength standpoint. My son and I remarked how Warner would not have been able to make that throw.

I think there are throws Warner just can't make anymore and it will only get worse. We never see a really deep pass with Warner. Most of our big gains are catch and run type throws. He does however make up for lack of arm strength by being extremely smart and thinking a step or two ahead. As his arm strength continues to decrease all the smarts in the world won't help him. The key is in knowing when one overcomes the other.

 

[Buckybird]

I think there are throws Warner just can't make anymore

name one!!!

 

[Buckybird]

We never see a really deep pass with Warner.

Really? I watched every game this season and we went deep in nearly every game at least once to try and open up the passing game. I'm all in support of Leinart (big fan) being the starter next year but to say Warners skills have lessend the last 2 seasons are ridiculous.

 

[moklerman]

Montana & Elway retired at 38.

No, they played at 38. Montana went to the playoffs with the Chiefs and Elway and the Broncos won the Super Bowl. Elway could have kept playing but he had noting left to prove. Montana was pretty battered and dealing with his back and surgically repaired elbow.

Warner is about as healthy as any 37/38 year old QB has ever been. He might get hurt tomorrow but he hasn't got any lingering issues that would debilitate him. His knees, back, arm and head are all in good physical shape. Maybe his age will make him more susceptable to injury in '09 but I don't know what hit he could take at 37 would knock him out at 38. Any hit that would injure him now would injure most QB's of 30+ years old.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

The teams that just keep riding the horse till it breaks down are the teams that fall off the cliff themselves. It sounds harsh but teams have to cut the cord before a player breaks down.

The successful teams figure out when that is going to happen and make the break.

And I do think age is catching Warner. I have season tickets with my son and I remember the last game of the season when Leinart got a chance to come in. He threw a pass on a rope from about 40 yards out into the end zone that the receiver wasn't able to corral but the pass was impressive from a strength standpoint. My son and I remarked how Warner would not have been able to make that throw.

I think there are throws Warner just can't make anymore and it will only get worse. We never see a really deep pass with Warner. Most of our big gains are catch and run type throws. He does however make up for lack of arm strength by being extremely smart and thinking a step or two ahead. As his arm strength continues to decrease all the smarts in the world won't help him. The key is in knowing when one overcomes the other.

Wow! I've seen 60 yard throws this past season, and whether he has a Cutler like gun is pretty close to irrelevant. The Offence is designed to his strengths and those of his wideouts, and when clicking is virtually unstoppable.

I'm neither a Warnerphile or phobe. I accept the reasoning for him staying and persuasive arguments in favour of moving on at this point. But, the suggestion that his talents are greatly dimnishing is hardly based on the factual evidence seen by most, if not all.

 

[Cards232]

Tell that to the Gannons and Cunninghams of the NFL.

Most felt Gannon could have been very productive for at least a couple more years before a freak neck injury basically ended his career. Cunningham was never a great qb & certainly not a very cerebral one. Kurt is a future HOF'r, Cunningham & Gannon, not so much so.

 

[Buckybird]

Wow! I've seen 60 yard throws this past season, and whether he has a Cutler like gun is pretty close to irrelevant. The Offence is designed to his strengths and those of his wideouts, and when clicking is virtually unstoppable.

I'm neither a Warnerphile or phobe. I accept the reasoning for him staying and persuasive arguments in favour of moving on at this point. But, the suggestion that his talents are greatly dimnishing is hardly based on the factual evidence seen by most, if not all.

stop stealing my thunder!!! see above. LOL

 

[earthsci]

No...

Uhh, yes. They were both 38 when they retired. Yes they played at 38, but they retired at that age too.

My point was that we didn't see a great tailing off of their stats because they left the game.

 

[Cards232]

The teams that just keep riding the horse till it breaks down are the teams that fall off the cliff themselves. It sounds harsh but teams have to cut the cord before a player breaks down.

The successful teams figure out when that is going to happen and make the break.

And I do think age is catching Warner. I have season tickets with my son and I remember the last game of the season when Leinart got a chance to come in. He threw a pass on a rope from about 40 yards out into the end zone that the receiver wasn't able to corral but the pass was impressive from a strength standpoint. My son and I remarked how Warner would not have been able to make that throw.

I think there are throws Warner just can't make anymore and it will only get worse. We never see a really deep pass with Warner. Most of our big gains are catch and run type throws. He does however make up for lack of arm strength by being extremely smart and thinking a step or two ahead. As his arm strength continues to decrease all the smarts in the world won't help him. The key is in knowing when one overcomes the other.

If there were signs of Warner breaking down, I might agree w/ you. When taking everything into consideration, was there a better qb in the NFL last year? Kurt made every throw he has ever made, no decrease in velocity, no decrease in accuracy.

The question really comes down to this, are the odds better that Warner will have yet another good year given all we know at this point, or that Leinart will be able to come in, take the reigns, & perform as Kurt has, baring in mind nobody performed better than Kurt did this year, let alone Matt? Do we stay w/ the hot hand, or do we go w/ the unknown hand? We don't know for sure how Kurt will do next year, but the odds are that he will do better than Matt if nothing else than b/c of experience. As stated in previous threads, I'm a big Leinart homer, but also a pragmatist.

Would you rather have the better potential of a couple more SB appearances the next 2 years, followed by a couple of good but not great years when Matt takes over? It will probably take Matt a year or 2 to cut his teeth w/ game experience before he could potentially get us back to the dance. I'm speaking odds here b/c that's all we can go off of. As for me, I think the odds are far greater for Warner than w/ Matt. I'll take the potential SB's now. Keep in mind, it will undoubtedly take Leinart some time to create the chemistry & confidence w/ his receivers that Warner has developed.

One other thing to take into consideration, in order to keep this going, we will probably need to attract key free agents and/or keep some core players. Are we more apt to do that w/ Warner as the starter, or w/ Leinart taking over the reigns? The relative known vs. the unknown. Therein lies the rub. As for me, I'll put my eggs in the Warner basket. Just my opinion though as someone who has played & coached for decades. Time is the only thing that will tell for sure.

 

[moklerman]

Uhh, yes. They were both 38 when they retired. Yes they played at 38, but they retired at that age too.

My point was that we didn't see a great tailing off of their stats because they left the game.

And I'm perfectly comfortable with the idea of Warner having a good year at 38 years old. Glad you agree. Let him play in '09 and produce at a high level and then make the tough decision in '10. If he has a 4,000 yard 30 TD year at 38 it will still be hard to justify plugging in an unproven guy.

Warner's skills haven't shown any signs of diminishing so age is a non-factor from season to season. The only real argument is he "might" get hurt and he won't be playing for the next 10 years.

No one thought he'd get out of Hyvees grocery store.
No one thought an Arena League QB would get a shot at the NFL.
No one thought his NFL Europe time meant much.
No one thought he'd keep the starting job after Green went down.
No one thought he'd win the Super Bowl/League MVP.
No one thought he'd overcome his thumb problems.
No one thought the Cardinals would be in the Super Bowl.

I didn't think there would be such a strong contingent of Cardinals fans that would be eager to get rid of him after leading the Cardinals to the Super Bowl. It shouldn't be a surprise, the honeymoon was quickly over in St. Louis and success is never enough for some fans. A good year isn't good enough, it has to be sustained for 10+ years to really count.

Of all the fans of the NFL though, I thought Cardinals fans would be a little different and appreciate it more than others would. "The Super was fine but I want years of continued success" seems to be the mantra. I can't help but think of "walk before you run".

Success is fleeting(just ask the Rams) and I'm very hesitant to freely let Warner, Boldin, Edge and JJ just walk and think the offense will continue to flourish. This team is built on offense so it just doesn't seem prudent to blow it all up. At least Pope and Pierre will be back.

 

[Buckybird]

And I'm perfectly comfortable with the idea of Warner having a good year at 38 years old. Glad you agree. Let him play in '09 and produce at a high level and then make the tough decision in '10. If he has a 4,000 yard 30 TD year at 38 it will still be hard to justify plugging in an unproven guy.

Warner's skills haven't shown any signs of diminishing so age is a non-factor from season to season. The only real argument is he "might" get hurt and he won't be playing for the next 10 years.

No one thought he'd get out of Hyvees grocery store.
No one thought an Arena League QB would get a shot at the NFL.
No one thought his NFL Europe time meant much.
No one thought he'd keep the starting job after Green went down.
No one thought he'd win the Super Bowl/League MVP.
No one thought he'd overcome his thumb problems.
No one thought the Cardinals would be in the Super Bowl.

I didn't think there would be such a strong contingent of Cardinals fans that would be eager to get rid of him after leading the Cardinals to the Super Bowl. It shouldn't be a surprise, the honeymoon was quickly over in St. Louis and success is never enough for some fans. A good year isn't good enough, it has to be sustained for 10+ years to really count.

Of all the fans of the NFL though, I thought Cardinals fans would be a little different and appreciate it more than others would. "The Super was fine but I want years of continued success" seems to be the mantra. I can't help but think of "walk before you run".

Success is fleeting(just ask the Rams) and I'm very hesitant to freely let Warner, Boldin, Edge and JJ just walk and think the offense will continue to flourish. This team is built on offense so it just doesn't seem prudent to blow it all up. At least Pope and Pierre will be back.

I think everyone appreciates what Kurt has done for the team. Bottom line, it's business. This isn't the '70's or before, there is cap that limits what teams can spend. We can resign Warner, but there is a cost. What does the team sacrifice? Q, AW, Karlos? Other potential free agents? Matt Leinart's future in AZ? For every reaction there is a consequence. A week ago, everyone thought we had $45 mil in cap space. How much do we have now? Roughly $23 mil and we haven't even added to our roster. I'm supportive on the QB decision either way. Signing Kurt doesn't assure us of returning to the Super Bowl just as letting him walk or retire. Does resigning him give us a better shot? Yes!!! But it also limits what we can add to get better this year and the next few seasons. The Cards had alot of things go right to get to the Super Bowl. The best team with the best talent doesn't always win it all or even make it to the big game. The Cards earned the right to get there, but a little luck never hurts. Only 1 team out of 32 is fortunate to hoist the trophy. The Cards have their faults and weaknesses, particularly on defense.

Bottom line, Business is business. Kurt's looking out for himself and family and the Cards are looking out for their franchise and seasons down the road. What's the right decision? Only time will tell.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

The Cards are trying to improve a team that lost *8* times last season, and want it to be a perennial contender.

Is Kurt the best investment to improve that record...?

Perhaps short term, but certainly not medium and long.

Is the 20 plus million it will cost to retain Kurt better invested in both mid-range FA's and extending the core of this team... is the question in my mind.

 

[moklerman]

A week ago, everyone thought we had $45 mil in cap space. How much do we have now? Roughly $23 mil

The Cardinals have spent $22M in the last week? A backup LB, Pope and Pierre? One other guy I think. What am I missing?

 

[Crazy Canuck]

The Cardinals have spent $22M in the last week? A backup LB, Pope and Pierre? One other guy I think. What am I missing?

Check the spreadsheet....

Dansby, Watson, Pope, St-Pierre, etc...