Warriors @ Suns 11-9-14

[Superbone]

Close, Steve. I was a Knicks fan raised in NJ, especially during their heyday of two championships in 1970 and '73.

Willis Reed, Dave DeBusschere, Dollar Bill Bradley, Clyde Frazier, Dick Barnett and then Earl The Pearl. Coached by Red Holzman. The most intelligent team in NBA history.

When I moved to Phoenix five years later in 1978, the first game I saw at the Madhouse on McDowell was the visiting Knicks vs. the Suns.

During the first half, I rooted for my longtime favorites, the Knicks. By the second half, I was rooting for my new hometown favorites, the Suns -- finesse ball and all.

I love that story!

And no, it's not the first time I've heard it but I love hearing it every time!

 

[BC867]

I love that story!

And no, it's not the first time I've heard it but I love hearing it every time!

How ironic. It's not the first time I told it. But, hey Steve called me a Celts fan. And one thing led to another.

 

[BC867]

And I've never seen finesse ball. Just that orange thing.

Yes, you have. Just watch the Suns next game.

Being outscored in the paint by quadruple.

Actually the Suns teams that had Westphal and Buse in the backcourt were very similar to now. Except Westphal was a better scorer than either Dragic or Bledsoe and Buse was a better defender than Bledsoe.

That was when the 50-and-fade personality of the Suns took hold.

Finesse ball. 50-and-fade. Small ball. 3 Point Guards. Different names. Same concept 3 1/2 decades later. We've come a long way.

 

[Superbone]

How ironic. It's not the first time I told it. But, hey Steve called me a Celts fan. And one thing led to another.

There's no standing for that!

 

[Errntknght]

BC

Willis Reed, Dave DeBusschere, Dollar Bill Bradley, Clyde Frazier, Dick Barnett and then Earl The Pearl. Coached by Red Holzman. The most intelligent team in NBA history.

Wasn't there a lanky forward on that team named Phil something? Turned out not to be a dummy either...

That really old guy Steve referred to was probably me. My conversion from a Celtics fan to a Suns fan was about as sudden as yours, though I was watching the game on TV.

 

[AzStevenCal]

BC

Wasn't there a lanky forward on that team named Phil something? Turned out not to be a dummy either...

That really old guy Steve referred to was probably me

Yup. I was just having a pre-senior moment.

Steve

 

[BC867]

Yup. I was just having a pre-senior moment.

Steve

Pre-senior? Are you a Freshman? Or a Sophomore? Or a Junior?

Question. What starts with a 6?

 

[BC867]

BC Wasn't there a lanky forward on that team named Phil something? Turned out not to be a dummy either...

Jeanie's live-in snorer missed the 1st Knicks championship in 1970. He was injured. He did play in the second championship in '73.

And no championship since. The Big Apple. What was David Stern thinking? Well, there is always the Russian in that other borough in Kings County.

 

[AzStevenCal]

What starts with a 6

No it doesn't. What starts with a "W".

Steve

 

[AzStevenCal]

While I am glad that other people are coming around to my way of thinking (2PGs and no SG is not an ideal setup) but I wanted to point out one additional thing.

BTW, I'm not really coming around to your thinking. I (and others) made the point frequently last season that Frye was a necessary component to the success of our two combo guard experiment. It would probably also work with a star small forward that can catch and shoot or drive when the defender closes out. But pulling a big man from the lane is key to it succeeding. I don't see how it's going to work the way we're doing it right now.

You're right that it's not an ideal setup but I think it's because of the rarity of a player such as Frye. IMO they should have matched Orlando's offer or they should have searched more diligently for a Bledsoe sign and trade. I love the Thomas acquisition and I think we'll find a way to be reasonably successful this season but I'm not convinced the whole will be equal to the sum of the parts.

Steve

 

[Mainstreet]

BTW, I'm not really coming around to your thinking. I (and others) made the point frequently last season that Frye was a necessary component to the success of our two combo guard experiment. It would probably also work with a star small forward that can catch and shoot or drive when the defender closes out. But pulling a big man from the lane is key to it succeeding. I don't see how it's going to work the way we're doing it right now.

You're right that it's not an ideal setup but I think it's because of the rarity of a player such as Frye. IMO they should have matched Orlando's offer or they should have searched more diligently for a Bledsoe sign and trade. I love the Thomas acquisition and I think we'll find a way to be reasonably successful this season but I'm not convinced the whole will be equal to the sum of the parts.

Steve

Spencer Hawes would have worked out nicely except for his choice of toilet paper.

I'm still not buying Frye was essential to the Suns winning in a two PG (combo guard) system. IMO, it's more like Hornacek has not figured out the guard rotation and how it works best. Maybe the Suns have one PG too many playing drive it to the basket. It is obviously too early to tell as Hornacek may yet figure it out.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Spencer Hawes would have worked out nicely except for his choice of toilet paper.

I'm still not buying Frye was essential to the Suns winning in a two PG (combo guard) system. IMO, it's more like Hornacek has not figured out the guard rotation and how it works best. Maybe the Suns have one PG too many playing drive it to the basket. It is obviously too early to tell as Hornacek may yet figure it out.

Even thought the stats scream otherwise? There may be another way to do it but in our offense last year his role was vital. There's a reason his +/- numbers closely matched our wins. When he was a huge plus, we almost always won. All of our best 3, 4 and 5 man lineups included him. But I'm not giving up on Hornacek finding combination that works.

Steve

 

[Mainstreet]

Even thought the stats scream otherwise? There may be another way to do it but in our offense last year his role was vital. There's a reason his +/- numbers closely matched our wins. When he was a huge plus, we almost always won. All of our best 3, 4 and 5 man lineups included him. But I'm not giving up on Hornacek finding combination that works.

Steve

I have always respected Frye as a player so I'm not one of those who were persistently down on him as a player. Actually I thought he did a decent job on defensive considering his lack of bulk. Also Frye had the ability to shoot the ball and play center so perhaps you are right. However, I think Frye's shooting can be replaced if it is indeed the problem. He was a streaky shooter. I view the Suns present problems more liking stepping over each other in the guard rotation. Dragic and Bledsoe have looked uncomfortable on the court at times with the addition of Thomas. I don't think it is because the loss of Frye. Also Hornacek may have too many players wanting playing time which can create chemistry problems.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I have always respected Frye as a player so I'm not one of those who were persistently down on him as a player. Actually I thought he did a decent job on defensive considering his lack of bulk. Also Frye had the ability to shoot the ball and play center so perhaps you are right. However, I think Frye's shooting can be replaced if it is indeed the problem. He was a streaky shooter. I view the Suns present problems more liking stepping over each other in the guard rotation. Dragic and Bledsoe have looked uncomfortable on the court at times with the addition of Thomas. I don't think it is because the loss of Frye. Also Hornacek may have too many players wanting playing time which can create chemistry problems.

Frye was definitely streaky and I'm not trying to make him out as a star or anything. But Dragic was a different player when Channing was on the court and the twosome of Eric and Goran only seemed to work when Frye was out there. In the long run we're probably better off without Frye as he's just not dependable enough to build around but right now, his absence is felt.

AFAIC, from the final Lakers game on (last season) it should have been obvious to everyone how to beat us. Just don't guard Channing. Well the same thing probably works with whoever we use to try and space the court and that's what we're seeing. Most of our opponents just stand there at the key and dare us to do something and the only time that falls apart is when Green is in the game. I thought we'd solve this by using Marcus as the 4 a lot and I still feel it's our best option. As undersized as we would be with Keef at the 5, I think it's the only way to make this combo guard lineup work.

Steve

 

[Errntknght]

I'm wondering if the players are starting to tune Hornacek out - he clearly wants them to run more than they did last year but they aren't doing it - they're running less. Its early days still so they may come around but I expected to see them sprinting right out of the gate. Its not just the PGs, the rest of the players have slowed as well.

As others have noted our only discernible play seems to be the high pick and roll - same as last year - and our opponents are defending it too well and we are not executing it in a sparkling fashion either. Hornacek said essentially the same thing in one of his last chats with the media which strikes me as bizarre as it is his job to create an offense that is more challenging than a single play. There are so many things they could do that they don't - starting with the fact that our two PGs are never both involved in a play. We have nothing going on along the baseline, we never use staggered screens, or pin down screens or cross screens or back picks. We don't even use a sideline pick and roll/pop. Forget something as complex as a 'pinch post' - which, incidentally, can be converted to a pick and roll on the fly. (A sideline-ish P&R)

Back when Horny was playing Stockton and Malone got a lot mileage out of a two man game - you'd think he'd at least trot that out for, say, Markieff and one of our PGs. Like the pinch post it sets up close to an elbow and for the same reason, you want the big involved to be a serious threat to shoot a jumper if his defender makes a mistake. Likewise for the PG in this case.

 

[Phrazbit]

I don't think they're tuning him out at all. Its not like we're getting smoked out there. If not for our double choke job against the Kings we're 5-2 right now and there is an entirely different narrative going on here.

Its too soon to judge much and most of what we've seen was stuff we could predict. Such as our streak shooting, weak center position and half court struggles. The one marked difference so far is that the Bledsoe/Dragic tandem has not clicked so far like it did last year. And despite the constant grumblings of some posters it did click last year and in a really big way.

I agree that the loss of Frye is a part of that. Teams are collapsing on both Goran and Bledsoe when they attempt to penetrate or run picks, last year teams had to respect Frye, this year they are not respecting the Morrii or Plumblee/Len as threats. That will probably begin to change if the Morrii continue to play at their current level.

I think Tucker's strong play was a huge factor last game, he helps create a lot of our fast breaks and is a threat to hit corner threes. I expect we will see a lot of PG/PG/Tucker/Morri/Morri soon.

 

[Mainstreet]

It is interesting to note:

Tolliver's time

Anthony Tolliver's time often has been spotty in his career but it does not make it any easier.

Tolliver was signed to take some of the spread power forward vacancy left by Channing Frye. Tolliver has played 11 minutes per game, his lowest average since a 16-game rookie season for San Antonio six years ago.

"It's not ideal from a personal standpoint to get into a rhythm and play at my optimum level," Tolliver said. "I'll just try to earn more playing time as time goes."

Tolliver has made 5 of 12 3-point attempts (42 percent) and has the highest rebound rate on the team (9.8 rebounds per 36 minutes).

"It's still a work in progress," Tolliver said. "Coach definitely is still trying to figure out everything. I'm trying to pick my spots. When I get in there, knock down shots, rebound and do what I'm supposed to do and maybe that eight minutes will turn into 18 minutes."

Perhaps Tolliver will fill the void left from the departure of Frye when the Suns determine how to play him. The above quote was taken from a Paul Coro article at azcentral dated 11-12-14.

http://www.azcentral.com/story/spor...suns-gerald-green-isaiah-thomas-nba/18886617/

 

[95pro]

Frye was definitely streaky and I'm not trying to make him out as a star or anything. But Dragic was a different player when Channing was on the court and the twosome of Eric and Goran only seemed to work when Frye was out there. In the long run we're probably better off without Frye as he's just not dependable enough to build around but right now, his absence is felt.

AFAIC, from the final Lakers game on (last season) it should have been obvious to everyone how to beat us. Just don't guard Channing. Well the same thing probably works with whoever we use to try and space the court and that's what we're seeing. Most of our opponents just stand there at the key and dare us to do something and the only time that falls apart is when Green is in the game. I thought we'd solve this by using Marcus as the 4 a lot and I still feel it's our best option. As undersized as we would be with Keef at the 5, I think it's the only way to make this combo guard lineup work.

Steve

I do recall Dragic penetrating and kicking it out to Frye a lot.

 

[95pro]

And the ball movement seemed better when it went through Frye last year.