Warriors @ Suns

[FutureSuperstar]

I said this in a post earlier in the season, but Hornacek's minute distribution is just terrible. Coaches need to trust the best players + their identity no matter what the 1st few weeks of the season. You shouldn't adapt to the other team. This "going small" stuff at PF/C is not the Suns identity. The strength of the team at the beginning of the season was Knight/Bledsoe and Len/TC as the Center tandem ... The TC/Len advantage - having 1 of them on the floor at all times - is being wasted by coach's decision to try to match up w/ the opposing team. It's a loser's mentality - Winning teams don't "adjust" to what the other team is doing. ESPECIALLY the 1st month of the season - It's all about a mentality and led by the coach's rotation/decision to let the other team dictate matchups, the mentality of this team is weak. There's no consistency/rhythm for several of the players.

For Len specifically, his minutes tonight was a joke. He plays 3 min. when Chandler gets hurt, plays fine, yet doesn't see the court again until 2 min. left in the 3rd Q - wtf? Not to mention Leur - Who had a 20/12 game on Wednesday doesn't see the court until 5 min. left in the 2nd ??? ... Because Teletovic played like 13 straight minutes in between quarters, probably getting worn out playing center AND playing a high pace.

I'm telling you guys - call me biased because some of you love to do that when I talk about Len - coach is wasting an opportunity to really develop Len by not playing him 20+ minutes every night. Players don't go backward - The best the Suns have played in the last 2 years was when Len was starting mid-season last year; he was getting double-doubles and holding his own against the top big guys in the game. He looked a bit rusty to start the season, but he found his groove a bit a week ago ... Only to be barely playing the last few games. Physically (running the court, positioning, etc.), Len looks good. A guy as talented as him should be playing 20+ minutes EVERY game; He is the upside of this team upfront, not Leur/Teletovic who have maxed out their potential.

Len had a 3 game stretch of: 56 m, 11-14 FG, 25p, 15r, 6b ... 4 games after that (included is basically 2 games w/o Chandler): 8.25 mpg ... Makes no sense; it's just silly.

 

[Mainstreet]

It has to happen soon. Warren scored 28 points tonight. That's 1 more point than our starting frontcourt gave us in the past 2 games combined.

We agree about Warren starting. The change should have already been made.

 

[FutureSuperstar]

I'll add this perspective to my previous post, since I just know this is what some of you are thinking:

I can just sense a response to my previous post will be something along the lines of, “Len makes too many mistakes, he looks lost, etc.” … And I’ll just say I disagree. I watch other comparable young centers – Noel, Gobert, Drummond, etc. – And I see those guys make mistake after mistake in terms of fouls, positioning, turnovers, etc. … The difference is they are still given minutes to play through those errors, learn from them, and therefore w/ the minutes – put up pretty decent #’s that mask any youthful errors they make during the games. Len doesn’t look “lost” more than any other young big, and based off his lower foul rate this year he is really improving w/ his positioning anyway.

Again though, it's all about minutes. Len can not prove himself, prove that he's improved unless he's given consistent rotation minutes (20+) every night. It's silly to me it's even a question if Len should be getting 20+ minutes/game.

 

[JCSunsfan]

He got 35 minutes. Not sure what difference starting would make.

 

[Errntknght]

I said this in a post earlier in the season, but Hornacek's minute distribution is just terrible. Coaches need to trust the best players + their identity no matter what the 1st few weeks of the season. You shouldn't adapt to the other team. This "going small" stuff at PF/C is not the Suns identity. The strength of the team at the beginning of the season was Knight/Bledsoe and Len/TC as the Center tandem ... The TC/Len advantage - having 1 of them on the floor at all times - is being wasted by coach's decision to try to match up w/ the opposing team. It's a loser's mentality - Winning teams don't "adjust" to what the other team is doing. ESPECIALLY the 1st month of the season - It's all about a mentality and led by the coach's rotation/decision to let the other team dictate matchups, the mentality of this team is weak. There's no consistency/rhythm for several of the players.

For Len specifically, his minutes tonight was a joke. He plays 3 min. when Chandler gets hurt, plays fine, yet doesn't see the court again until 2 min. left in the 3rd Q - wtf? Not to mention Leur - Who had a 20/12 game on Wednesday doesn't see the court until 5 min. left in the 2nd ??? ... Because Teletovic played like 13 straight minutes in between quarters, probably getting worn out playing center AND playing a high pace.

I'm telling you guys - call me biased because some of you love to do that when I talk about Len - coach is wasting an opportunity to really develop Len by not playing him 20+ minutes every night. Players don't go backward - The best the Suns have played in the last 2 years was when Len was starting mid-season last year; he was getting double-doubles and holding his own against the top big guys in the game. He looked a bit rusty to start the season, but he found his groove a bit a week ago ... Only to be barely playing the last few games. Physically (running the court, positioning, etc.), Len looks good. A guy as talented as him should be playing 20+ minutes EVERY game; He is the upside of this team upfront, not Leur/Teletovic who have maxed out their potential.

Len had a 3 game stretch of: 56 m, 11-14 FG, 25p, 15r, 6b ... 4 games after that (included is basically 2 games w/o Chandler): 8.25 mpg ... Makes no sense; it's just silly.

I'm one of those who think you're a tad biased about Len but I agree with you on this - Len ought to be getting all the minutes he can physically handle. I'd only sit him if he started dogging it. Its one more reason not to like Hornacek's coaching.

 

[Catlover]

I'm one of those who think you're a tad biased about Len but I agree with you on this - Len ought to be getting all the minutes he can physically handle. I'd only sit him if he started dogging it. Its one more reason not to like Hornacek's coaching.

I think he's more than a tad biased but I agree too. I've reached the point where I have serious doubts whether Len will ever amount to much. I thought he had the potential to be a very good center but it's disturbing to see how poorly he still plays at times. But we really need to find out for sure just what he can be.

Play him 25+ minutes every night, same with Warren. We need to know whether the Len experiment is worth sticking with and putting him on the bench in the hopes that we can stumble into a playoff spot is shortsighted IMO.

 

[nashman]

Warren, Booker, Len all need to be playing more we have some good young talent that needs to learn. Wish we could just get rid of Morris. Bled and knight can be good but we need to get the young guys in the floor to know where this team goes in the future. I have the feeling the only reason Morris gets minutes is to hopefully be able to showcase him to move him, hopefully! They can be entertaining to watch but playing the young guys could prove to be more interesting in the long run. On a side note Curry is just beyond ridiculous with his shooting, no one is beating GS if they are hitting 20 something 3's!

 

[Phrazbit]

Tucker's "I think I'm way better than I really am" routine was admirable when he was in a smaller role in previous seasons but as an extended minute player... I'm over it... and him, i really hope Warren officailly supplants him soon. I think it will be good for Tucker as well to get back to his "hustle off the bench" origins.

I'm not ready to complain about Booker's minutes because he is already playing more than I thought he would at this point, but there is a lot to be excited about there, he looks like a sure bet to be a really solid player.

As for Len... I don't care that he isn't playing much because, as been the case for his career, on most nights its hard to tell when he is on the court and when he isn't. The guy is an absolute ghost for the majority of his PT. I cannot wrap my mind around how a guy with such a large physical presence could disappear so frequently in a 5 on 5 game.

I don't get how Lauer's PT has been so erratic. I do think Tele has been improving too but it drives me crazy how we see a lineup absolutely kill it for us one night... and then we won't see that same look again for 3 games. I know there are a lot of guys vying for PT on this team but Hornacek needs to find a clutch lineup and stick with it. Seems like every 4th quarter we have a different group of 3 guys out there alongside Bledsoe and Knight.

And I'm done with Morris. Super done. I don't care that he has played better of late, between him and Tucker it feels like we're a few subtractions away from being a pretty good team.

 

[nashman]

Agree think tucker and Morris screw up the scoring some other can provide given minutes.

 

[slinslin]

It is time to end this Hornacek disaster.

- he does not appear to have a plan for what he is doing
- failure to develop Len and Goodwin
- failure to hold players responsible ( last year Morris twins)


This team with the players we have should be one of the elite defensive teams in the league, yet we give up 135, 120 and 116 in the last 4 games and our centers play basically no minutes.

Why is Ronnie Price playing ? Why is Tucker starting?

 

[Zobaczcie suki]

We lost to the world champ undefeated Warriors. The sky is falling, the sky is falling!

 

[slinslin]

We lost to the world champ undefeated Warriors. The sky is falling, the sky is falling!

We also lost to the Pelicans twice playing no defense whatsoever.

Let me ask you, what has Hornacek done to keep his job so far? The only thing he ever does is deflecting responsibilities to his players.

 

[FutureSuperstar]

The thing, w/ Len, and Chandler too, is that both look invisible almost when they're on the court through no fault of their own in my opinion. They just don't get the ball on offense. I'm not calling for them to get post-ups, but there's plenty of times during games when a guard drives, and there's an opening to pass to them around the basket and the guard shoots instead. Both of their minutes have been down too the past week so that's masking some of your perceptions on them being "invisible" (since they've barely been on the court).

It's funny - If a guy puts up #'s w/ minutes no-one talks about any youthful errors he makes (a bad shot, a bad foul, getting schooled by a vet). But when a guy plays 8 minutes, suddenly those things are huge problems for Len. And really when Len plays small minutes, I think some of you are making stuff up in your head about his mistakes. Honestly, I don't know what game you guys were watching last night to think Len is making those type of errors. I noticed ZERO positioning errors from his last night. He seemed to be in the right position always - didn't have any fouls or TO's. I can't even remember an offensive player scoring over him in the paint (Seemed like GSW just shot 3's when he was in)

Minutes is everything. Len is not an "energy" type big man to be all over the court in limited minutes. He's a guy that can line-up against any center due to his size/skill. I'm not talking out of my a** either - Last season was a thing right? When Len had a 25+ game stretch of starting and the Suns played their best ball? When Len was averaging like 9-9-2 in 25-30 mpg. When Len had great games against D. Jordan, Marc Gasol, Pekovic, etc. I don't think it was a dream, lol.

 

[elindholm]

The thing, w/ Len, and Chandler too, is that both look invisible almost when they're on the court through no fault of their own in my opinion. They just don't get the ball on offense. I'm not calling for them to get post-ups, but there's plenty of times during games when a guard drives, and there's an opening to pass to them around the basket and the guard shoots instead. Both of their minutes have been down too the past week so that's masking some of your perceptions on them being "invisible" (since they've barely been on the court).

It's funny - If a guy puts up #'s w/ minutes no-one talks about any youthful errors he makes (a bad shot, a bad foul, getting schooled by a vet). But when a guy plays 8 minutes, suddenly those things are huge problems for Len. And really when Len plays small minutes, I think some of you are making stuff up in your head about his mistakes. Honestly, I don't know what game you guys were watching last night to think Len is making those type of errors. I noticed ZERO positioning errors from his last night. He seemed to be in the right position always - didn't have any fouls or TO's. I can't even remember an offensive player scoring over him in the paint (Seemed like GSW just shot 3's when he was in)

Minutes is everything. Len is not an "energy" type big man to be all over the court in limited minutes. He's a guy that can line-up against any center due to his size/skill. I'm not talking out of my a** either - Last season was a thing right? When Len had a 25+ game stretch of starting and the Suns played their best ball? When Len was averaging like 9-9-2 in 25-30 mpg. When Len had great games against D. Jordan, Marc Gasol, Pekovic, etc. I don't think it was a dream, lol.

Can you change your screen name to "therealalexlen"? It would help me keep track of things.

 

[JCSunsfan]

We lost to a team playing maybe the best basketball in history and we lost twice to a team with the best young player in the league and our former coach. We also had injuries to key players. It's not the end of the world.

 

[Mainstreet]

The thing that bothers me the most, I'm not expecting the Suns to beat a good team. I'm not talking about GS but good teams in general. Once in awhile the Suns should be able to play up to their ability (or over their heads) and get some good wins. Now looking at the Suns schedule one can almost pencil in wins and losses barring key injuries. I can't get excited about how the Suns play under Jeff Hornacek. A trade might shake things up (like Markieff) but I don't think trading one player is the answer long term.

IMO, there is a sense of apathy growing.

 

[ArizonaSportsFan]

Coaches have a boss. As I am sure you know. It amuses me that you think the coach enjoys watching Morris and Tucker play. I think the young players that show promise are getting valuable time on the floor. We have seen them play some very good defense in stretches. It is not consistent, and that is not ALL on the coaches. Hornacek was a smart player, played alongside one of the best assist men the league has seen. Do you think he enjoys watching, or has coached, hero ball by either Knight or Bledsoe? If I thought changing coaches would do anything, I would be right there with you. Perhaps changing coaches gets them more losses and a better pick if the new coach is told to play the young guys more?

I am not sure where the Len angst comes from. He is an ok backup center. What game have you watched where you thought "More Len would have made a difference"? His "breakout" game was against the Nuggets. Jokic/Hickson. Ok. What other team has gone big to beat the Suns? I think the league is going quicker/smaller, but by all means play Len against power forwards and see how that goes. Power forward is a huge problem on this team, followed by SF. As Warren plays more, the SF may be less of a problem. But Leuer is a nice backup, and valuable as such, and Morris is not carrying the load and is a net negative. As soon as Horny finds a starting PF on the team, things will improve.

 

[Chaz]

I am not disheartened by the recent losses. Disappointed by the Pelicans losses but this team is still figuring things out.
We will know a lot more after this road trip.

In this game they did some good things but ultimately made too many mistakes allowing easy baskets and second chance points.
A good measuring stick game.

For those worried about mediocrity would you rather tank for draft picks and end up the 76ers? I'll take middle of the road with an upward trend over that mess.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I am not disheartened by the recent losses. Disappointed by the Pelicans losses but this team is still figuring things out.
We will know a lot more after this road trip.

In this game they did some good things but ultimately made too many mistakes allowing easy baskets and second chance points.
A good measuring stick game.

For those worried about mediocrity would you rather tank for draft picks and end up the 76ers? I'll take middle of the road with an upward trend over that mess.

The Boston direction would make sense to me. It looks like that's what the Suns are also trying to do. Trade aging assets for picks, accululate assets, try to compete. Do not tank.

Celtics are 9-7, have some quality young players in Sullinger, Smart, Thomas and others.

Have accumulated picks (mostly at the Nets expense). They still own ALL their future first round picks (but have traded away many 2nd round picks) PLUS they have:

2016--Brooklyn 1st (unprotected), Dallas 1st (top 7 protected), Minnesta 1st (top 12 protected, used to be ours), Cleveland 2nd, Dallas 2nd, Miami 2nd, Philadelphia 2nd (better than a late first rounder). Yes, Boston has a potential 8 picks in this summers draft.

2017--Brooklyn 1st (swap rights), Clippers 2nd

2018--Brooklyn 1st, Memphis 1st

2019--Detroit 2nd

2020--Miami 2nd

 

[Covert Rain]

This team is simply hard to watch. I am not expecting much out of them right now but on some nights it's like they are stuck in the mud. JH just doesn't seem to have a plan. This team has defensive talent and yet the team at times plays horrible defense. Honestly, by mid-season if this team doesn't show growth, it might be time to look elsewhere for a coach.

 

[elindholm]

The Boston direction would make sense to me. It looks like that's what the Suns are also trying to do.

Kind of ironic that the Celtics are achieving that more successfully than the Suns now that McDonough has changed affiliations. Or maybe it isn't.

 

[Phrazbit]

Kind of ironic that the Celtics are achieving that more successfully than the Suns now that McDonough has changed affiliations. Or maybe it isn't.

It also helped that when Boston started their tear down they had a group of high profile players to ship out, which yielded a massive return. McDonough took over a franchise coming off a 20 something win season and had just tried to build around Micheal Beasley.

Also if the Suns had the fortune of playing in the East then everything would be different. That 2014 team probably wins 50+ games and is a top 3 or 4 seed in that conference.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Kind of ironic that the Celtics are achieving that more successfully than the Suns now that McDonough has changed affiliations. Or maybe it isn't.

Boston had much more to deal out when they started. I would says the GM's have had a similar level of success given what they had to start with.

 

[FutureSuperstar]

Can you change your screen name to "therealalexlen"? It would help me keep track of things.

Look instead of all these shots/calling out you guys are doing of my posts, specifically quote something that I said that shows my bias or that you disagree with. Like what did I say that you disagree with?

 

[FutureSuperstar]

Coaches have a boss. As I am sure you know. It amuses me that you think the coach enjoys watching Morris and Tucker play. I think the young players that show promise are getting valuable time on the floor. We have seen them play some very good defense in stretches. It is not consistent, and that is not ALL on the coaches. Hornacek was a smart player, played alongside one of the best assist men the league has seen. Do you think he enjoys watching, or has coached, hero ball by either Knight or Bledsoe? If I thought changing coaches would do anything, I would be right there with you. Perhaps changing coaches gets them more losses and a better pick if the new coach is told to play the young guys more?

I am not sure where the Len angst comes from. He is an ok backup center. What game have you watched where you thought "More Len would have made a difference"? His "breakout" game was against the Nuggets. Jokic/Hickson. Ok. What other team has gone big to beat the Suns? I think the league is going quicker/smaller, but by all means play Len against power forwards and see how that goes. Power forward is a huge problem on this team, followed by SF. As Warren plays more, the SF may be less of a problem. But Leuer is a nice backup, and valuable as such, and Morris is not carrying the load and is a net negative. As soon as Horny finds a starting PF on the team, things will improve.

I already wrote a whole paragraph that it doesn't matter who Len (or Chandler, or anybody) is matched up with; Coach should stick with the rotation and players. If Len was like Asik or a big guy who could hardly move, then maybe you'd adjust. But Len isn't slow - He's not the quickest center, but he's quick/agile enough to be out there 20+ minutes regardless of if the other team goes small. Like I said before, when you let the OTHER TEAM dictate the matchups, that's a losing mentality. A mentality that the Suns/Hornacek are apparently embracing this season.

A quick example: Against the Anderson/Davis, coach opted for M. Morris and Leur ... I disagree w/ that. Let Len guard 1 of them, and Leur/Morris guard the other. It's not a mismatch, Anderson/Davis will get their shots off vs. anybody regardless, why change your game-plan/rotations?

There is A TON to be said about the rhythm/chemistry of a team. These random combos coach is putting out there is disrupting the team's flow/chemistry, etc. You maybe throw out random combos, see what works, etc. mid-way through the season or after you see the main rotation/game-plan didn't work. You don't do that to start the season. All my opinion of course.