Was watching the Christian Kirk interview

[bennyperrin23]

i don’t have a link, cause I don’t know how to do that, if someone can help me that would be great. Christian Kirk said kyler is quick but he could beat him in a race. That’s all we need, I couple of jukes here and there in the pocket and the he finds a wr. If Rosen is the qb of the future he needs a clean pocket and we just don’t have that right now. I was on board to keep Rosen but now after thinking about the last couple of days on this board I want Murray. Any thoughts. Thanks

 

[BirdDroppings]

I think your argument is that mobile QBs keep plays alive longer allowing for more chances for the WR to get open and good things to happen. That may or may not be true, but I think it's interesting that it's typically the pocket/statue QBs that get sacked the least and the mobile ones that get sacked the most.

I'm defining mobile below as guys who had over 50 rush attempts and pocket as guys who had less than 40. I chose those numbers because almost every QB was between 20-60 so they seemed like reasonable cutoffs. Feel free to nitpick, but I think the point is clear regardless.

The most sacked QBs last season:
1. DeShaun Watson - Mobile
2. Dak Prescott - Mobile
3. Russell Wilson - Mobile
4. Derek Carr - Pocket
5. Aaron Rodgers - Hybrid


Least sacked QBs (min 10 starts):
1. Drew Brees - Pocket
2. Andrew Luck - Hybrid
3. Andy Dalton - Pocket
4. Tom Brady- Pocket
5. Alex Smith - Hybrid

 

[LoyaltyisaCurse]

Kyler will not hold up to the rigors of so many hits and I really think Cards would be wise to run away from him. I honestly believe he'll be back in baseball withing 2 to 3 seasons.

 

[The Kraken]

I think your argument is that mobile QBs keep plays alive longer allowing for more chances for the WR to get open and good things to happen. That may or may not be true, but I think it's interesting that it's typically the pocket/statue QBs that get sacked the least and the mobile ones that get sacked the most.

I'm defining mobile below as guys who had over 50 rush attempts and pocket as guys who had less than 40. I chose those numbers because almost every QB was between 20-60 so they seemed like reasonable cutoffs. Feel free to nitpick, but I think the point is clear regardless.

The most sacked QBs last season:
1. DeShaun Watson - Mobile
2. Dak Prescott - Mobile
3. Russell Wilson - Mobile
4. Derek Carr - Pocket
5. Aaron Rodgers - Hybrid


Least sacked QBs (min 10 starts):
1. Drew Brees - Pocket
2. Andrew Luck - Hybrid
3. Andy Dalton - Pocket
4. Tom Brady- Pocket
5. Alex Smith - Hybrid

I am curious, what is the difference between a mobile QB and a Hybrid?

Let me tell you right now, as someone who saw Alex Smith in HS and loosely watched him in college, he is a far better open field runner than Russell Wilson and Dak Prescott...sure aging, broken Smith is a shell of that guy, but in his prime its not even close.

If anything, EVERY NFL QB should be a pocket passer and then they break out on how mobile they are once the play breaks down...

 

[Russ Smith]

What I'm looking for is the next Steve Young, but not the Young that came out of BYU and the USFL but the Young after a couple of years in SF where he figured out if I keep running and not getting down I'm going to be out of the NFL shortly. For a brief stretch, 4-5 years, I'd argue Young was as good if not the best QB in NFL history. But it was a very short run because he started late due to the USFL and then Montana, and it took him a couple of years to figure it out. He was like Rodgers in that he had that perfect happy medium of movement to avoid hits but not just running over and over. Young was a much better runner than Rodgers and had some epic long runs even during the stretch I'm talking about, but he'd really toned it down. I looked it up from about 94-97 IMO is the peak Steve Young. Ran 200-300 yards per year, passing 3500 plus, high 60% completion and around a 2 to 1 or better TD to INT ratio every year.

The problem is Young retired in 99 so what I consider his peak ended 2 years before he retired and took him 10 years to get to. If Murray can be that kind of QB yeah he's a HOFer, but if it took Young 10 years to get there as experienced as he was, playing for Bill Walsh, with Montana etc, how long will it take a kid with 1 year of playing time and a rookie NFL HC?

 

[Chris_Sanders]

What I'm looking for is the next Steve Young, but not the Young that came out of BYU and the USFL but the Young after a couple of years in SF where he figured out if I keep running and not getting down I'm going to be out of the NFL shortly. For a brief stretch, 4-5 years, I'd argue Young was as good if not the best QB in NFL history. But it was a very short run because he started late due to the USFL and then Montana, and it took him a couple of years to figure it out. He was like Rodgers in that he had that perfect happy medium of movement to avoid hits but not just running over and over. Young was a much better runner than Rodgers and had some epic long runs even during the stretch I'm talking about, but he'd really toned it down. I looked it up from about 94-97 IMO is the peak Steve Young. Ran 200-300 yards per year, passing 3500 plus, high 60% completion and around a 2 to 1 or better TD to INT ratio every year.

The problem is Young retired in 99 so what I consider his peak ended 2 years before he retired and took him 10 years to get to. If Murray can be that kind of QB yeah he's a HOFer, but if it took Young 10 years to get there as experienced as he was, playing for Bill Walsh, with Montana etc, how long will it take a kid with 1 year of playing time and a rookie NFL HC?

Can you imagine Young in the modern NFL with QB protections and basically free run WRs?

 

[juza76]

i don’t have a link, cause I don’t know how to do that, if someone can help me that would be great. Christian Kirk said kyler is quick but he could beat him in a race. That’s all we need, I couple of jukes here and there in the pocket and the he finds a wr. If Rosen is the qb of the future he needs a clean pocket and we just don’t have that right now. I was on board to keep Rosen but now after thinking about the last couple of days on this board I want Murray. Any thoughts. Thanks

me and some other users we give u a warm welcome to jump in our murray bandwagon.
not much seats available

 

[Russ Smith]

Can you imagine Young in the modern NFL with QB protections and basically free run WRs?

Yep, and this may be where Kliff is headed with Murray. The problem with a good running QB is it's so damn hard to play man to man defense. If it's man it's just too easy for the QB to take off and run. THe last article I looked at said QB's average about 2.5 yards more per run against man than zone, that's why, unless the defense spies on the QB it's just harder to turn around get back to tackle when he runs. So teams either have to play a spy, which makes it easier to run,or they have to play zone.

If you believe Josh has a chance to be like Brady it doesn't matter, and I love Josh, but I didn't see anything as a rookie that led me to believe he's going to be like Brady.

So you bring in a coach like Kliff and maybe the whole thing makes sense maybe he thinks with my offense and him at QB I can basically dictate what defense people play. If they play man, Kyler will take off for 15 yard runs until they spy him, then they have 10 guys playing defense against David Johnson and we burn them with DJ etc.

But you have to really believe that Murray is that good and in the new era it won't take him anywhere near as long to get there as it did Steve Young.

If he's Russell Wilson with a better arm even, I'm probably ok with the move. But giving up Bosa or a chance to deal the pick, he has to be at least that good and hopefully better.

 

[ARZCardinals]

Cardinals either
A) Replace the entire offensive line
OR
B) Get Kyler Murray and begin on building an O line

Rosen vs Murray college stats

Rosen 61% thrower
Murray 69% thrower

Rosen 8.5 yards per attempt
Murray 11.5 yards per attempt

Rosen rushed for negative 97 yards in his final year
Murray rushed for 1001 yards his final year

Rosen threw for 3756 yards
Murray threw for 4361 yards

total yards last year in college
Rosen 3756 throwing minus 97 rushing total 3659
Murray 4361 throwing plus 1001 rushing total 5362

Watch Rosen throw then watch Murray throw
Murray gets the ball out of his hand a lot faster than Rosen (who's good)

In the end only time will tell...but every stat says Murray will be a much better asset to a team.

 

[DVontel]

Kyler Murray is not going to make a bad OLine look not bad.

Russell Wilson hasn’t.
Cam Newton hasn’t.
Deshaun Watson hasn’t.
Dak Prescott was one of the most sacked QBs in the league last year.

Hell, even when Vick first came onto the scene, he led the league in getting sacked at one point.

I mean, good Lord, what are you guys not getting?

I love Murray, but he’s not going to turn a bad OLine into an even adequate one.

 

[Russ Smith]

Kyler Murray is not going to make a bad OLine look not bad.

Russell Wilson hasn’t.
Cam Newton hasn’t.
Deshaun Watson hasn’t.
Dak Prescott was one of the most sacked QBs in the league last year.

Hell, even when Vick first came onto the scene, he led the league in getting sacked at one point.

I mean, good Lord, what are you guys not getting?

I love Murray, but he’s not going to turn a bad OLine into an even adequate one.

Yep the OL argument is more about running for me. With Josh Rosen at QB, on every running play it's 9 on 11 because josh is not involved after he hands it off and DJ has the ball. So 9 blocking 11. If the QB is Murray that becomes 9 on 10 because they have to account for Murray by spying. It's why Seattle seems to find RB's every year that nobody has ever heard of, because there's one less defender because of Wilson. So it helps your run game. It does NOT prevent sacks. What prevents sacks is either a great OL, or a QB like Brady who reads the defense and gets it out quickly.

 

[Proximo]

I think your argument is that mobile QBs keep plays alive longer allowing for more chances for the WR to get open and good things to happen. That may or may not be true, but I think it's interesting that it's typically the pocket/statue QBs that get sacked the least and the mobile ones that get sacked the most.

I'm defining mobile below as guys who had over 50 rush attempts and pocket as guys who had less than 40. I chose those numbers because almost every QB was between 20-60 so they seemed like reasonable cutoffs. Feel free to nitpick, but I think the point is clear regardless.

The most sacked QBs last season:
1. DeShaun Watson - Mobile
2. Dak Prescott - Mobile
3. Russell Wilson - Mobile
4. Derek Carr - Pocket
5. Aaron Rodgers - Hybrid


Least sacked QBs (min 10 starts):
1. Drew Brees - Pocket
2. Andrew Luck - Hybrid
3. Andy Dalton - Pocket
4. Tom Brady- Pocket
5. Alex Smith - Hybrid

This list is way too simplistic to mean anything. Sack rates depends on the system that is being run - are there a ton of 3 step drops, or is it a system where they are going for the longball, the quality of the oline, the quality of the qb's decision making, and the ability of their receivers to get open.

Deshaun Watson is capable of running, but if you watch the guy, I have never seen a qb hold onto the ball as long as he does. He brings on 60% of the sacks himself for just that reason.

Wilson has had a terrible o-line the last few years, actually it's been worse than the cards except for last year.

As for your least sacked - brees and brady get rid of the ball really fast, especially brady.

 

[BirdDroppings]

I am curious, what is the difference between a mobile QB and a Hybrid?

Let me tell you right now, as someone who saw Alex Smith in HS and loosely watched him in college, he is a far better open field runner than Russell Wilson and Dak Prescott...sure aging, broken Smith is a shell of that guy, but in his prime its not even close.

If anything, EVERY NFL QB should be a pocket passer and then they break out on how mobile they are once the play breaks down...

I based it on rush attempts last year. Guys with 50+ rush attempts were considered mobile. I'm fine with disputing who belongs where to some degree, but I think the general concept of how often guys chose to run vs how often they chose to pass should be the basis for this myself.

 

[BirdDroppings]

This list is way too simplistic to mean anything. Sack rates depends on the system that is being run - are there a ton of 3 step drops, or is it a system where they are going for the longball, the quality of the oline, the quality of the qb's decision making, and the ability of their receivers to get open.

Deshaun Watson is capable of running, but if you watch the guy, I have never seen a qb hold onto the ball as long as he does. He brings on 60% of the sacks himself for just that reason.

Wilson has had a terrible o-line the last few years, actually it's been worse than the cards except for last year.

As for your least sacked - brees and brady get rid of the ball really fast, especially brady.

Yeah, I know. That was kind of the point. Saying we need a little more escapability that Murray will bring is saying that we don't need guys who get rid of the ball quicker like Brees and Brady. I'm not even trying to argue for Rosen here, I'm just trying to argue against the notion that holding on to the ball longer to keep plays alive is inherently a winning prospect. You kind of made my point for me with that so thanks.

 

[Borderrat]

Kyler will not hold up to the rigors of so many hits and I really think Cards would be wise to run away from him. I honestly believe he'll be back in baseball withing 2 to 3 seasons.

This right here!

 

[Krangodnzr]

@Russ Smith

You are nailing my perspective on Murray much better than I have.

I loved hearing Chip Kelly's football concepts explained.

Basically, Kelly's concepts go back to old school smashmouth football where you attempt to overwhelm the defense with superior numbers. If defenses have to account for the QB, it opens up all kinds of opportunities in the pass game AND run game.

Why I like Murray so much is that he is such a good passer for a QB who can run. He has the ability to absolutely shred defenses with his arm and feet.

If Murray was 6'5 and didnt run he'd be the highest rated passer this year bar none. I think people are taking way too much stock in his height. Listen to what people who've played the game say, they say that QBs dont really see over the line, they see between the line.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Kyler Murray is not going to make a bad OLine look not bad.

Russell Wilson hasn’t.
Cam Newton hasn’t.
Deshaun Watson hasn’t.
Dak Prescott was one of the most sacked QBs in the league last year.

Hell, even when Vick first came onto the scene, he led the league in getting sacked at one point.

I mean, good Lord, what are you guys not getting?

I love Murray, but he’s not going to turn a bad OLine into an even adequate one.

You can't make a bad oline look good .

You can overcome a bad oline with a myriad of things like:

Pre snap reads

Great footwork

Quick decision making

Quick release

Great athleticism

 

[Krangodnzr]

Kyler will not hold up to the rigors of so many hits and I really think Cards would be wise to run away from him. I honestly believe he'll be back in baseball withing 2 to 3 seasons.

Kyler Murray doesnt take big hits.

Your comment isnt rooted in anything shown on tape. It's all conjecture and false belief based on his smaller than average size, which is also silly because guys like DeSean Jackson are smaller than him and havent been "injury prone".

Back up your claim if you're so sure of it, because I can pull up 50 runs by Murray where he doesnt take a big hit because he looks to avoid contact.

 

[LoyaltyisaCurse]

Kyler Murray doesnt take big hits.

Your comment isnt rooted in anything shown on tape. It's all conjecture and false belief based on his smaller than average size, which is also silly because guys like DeSean Jackson are smaller than him and havent been "injury prone".

Back up your claim if you're so sure of it, because I can pull up 50 runs by Murray where he doesnt take a big hit because he looks to avoid contact.

He doesn’t take hits...in the Big12.

His team won’t have superior talent protecting him in the NFL where defenses are bigger, stronger, faster and meaner.

 

[Krangodnzr]

He doesn’t take hits...in the Big12.

His team won’t have superior talent protecting him in the NFL where defenses are bigger, stronger, faster and meaner.

Ooooooook.

 

[LoyaltyisaCurse]

Ooooooook.

‘Mmmkay... we certainly shall see who’s right.

Spoiler

It’s me

 

[Krangodnzr]

‘Mmmkay... we certainly shall see who’s right.

Spoiler

It’s me

Not if you are basing your opinion on actual evidence, because Murray is clearly elite at dodging big hits.

 

[LoyaltyisaCurse]

Not if you are basing your opinion on actual evidence, because Murray is clearly elite at dodging big hits.

In the Big12...

 

[Russ Smith]

@Russ Smith

You are nailing my perspective on Murray much better than I have.

I loved hearing Chip Kelly's football concepts explained.

Basically, Kelly's concepts go back to old school smashmouth football where you attempt to overwhelm the defense with superior numbers. If defenses have to account for the QB, it opens up all kinds of opportunities in the pass game AND run game.

Why I like Murray so much is that he is such a good passer for a QB who can run. He has the ability to absolutely shred defenses with his arm and feet.

If Murray was 6'5 and didnt run he'd be the highest rated passer this year bar none. I think people are taking way too much stock in his height. Listen to what people who've played the game say, they say that QBs dont really see over the line, they see between the line.

To be clear I would draft Bosa and keep Rosen because it's the safest thing to do. But I do think it's entirely possible that Kliff is thinking he knows Murray better than anybody else does and that with those feet and that arm he can make a lethal offense.

I guess we'll see, I still have no idea if we're going to pick Murray, apparently we met with Bosa tonight

 

[Krangodnzr]

In the Big12...

Playing football in the Big 12 isnt that different...