Watching the Twins succeed from afar.....

[Mainstreet]

Payne is showing some resurgence. Book can do it in spots. We have CP3 and at times Durant acts like a point forward. I don't feel as desperate post KD trade. It sure would have been nice though. I have been with you all season long hoping the Suns could move someone to solidify that spot.

Yeah, it's been two seasons in a row the Suns have depended on Payne. Someone has a lot of faith in him.

 

[Mainstreet]

Yeah, some folks seem to neglect that the demand (and resulting cost) for Durant would undoubtedly have increased in the offseason, not decreased.

I want to revisit this in the off season.

 

[SirStefan32]

How good would the Suns have been if they could have traded for Reggie Jackson or Bones Hyland and a role playing power forward, perhaps like Jarred Vanderbilt?

These are only examples of the type of trades I'm talking about. These players were obtainable.

I have my reservations about the KD trade, but I really think that a couple of role player would not have given this team a shot at the title. I love Booker- probably my favorite Suns of all time, but he is not a great first option on a title contender. He couldn't push them past the Bucks, and he got shut down by Dallas the following year. Chris Paul is slowing down (normal for his age), and he is just not a good second option. I lobe Bridges and Cam, but players like that were not going to be enough to push this team past the best teams in the league. KD is still a top-five player in the league. He is a legitimate first option on a title-contending team. That's what the Suns had to get. All of a sudden Booker doesn't need to be the first option, thus becoming probably THE best second option. CP3 becomes the third option, which he can still do.

Suns had to make this move if they wanted a chance at the title this year, next year, and maybe the year after. This is coming from someone who thinks Bridges may become a star, and is skeptical about KD's health. I really try to stay objective, and my take on this trade is that the Suns are in a better spot for this year and next year with KD, but will likely be worse off for a couple of years after that. Best case scenario is for the Suns to win it all this year or (and?) next, while Mikal becomes a legitimate star. Works out for everyone- we get the damn ring, and I don't care what happens for a few years after that. Suns were NOT going anywhere with the roster they had or with some minor trades.

 

[Mainstreet]

I have my reservations about the KD trade, but I really think that a couple of role player would not have given this team a shot at the title. I love Booker- probably my favorite Suns of all time, but he is not a great first option on a title contender. He couldn't push them past the Bucks, and he got shut down by Dallas the following year. Chris Paul is slowing down (normal for his age), and he is just not a good second option. I lobe Bridges and Cam, but players like that were not going to be enough to push this team past the best teams in the league. KD is still a top-five player in the league. He is a legitimate first option on a title-contending team. That's what the Suns had to get. All of a sudden Booker doesn't need to be the first option, thus becoming probably THE best second option. CP3 becomes the third option, which he can still do.

Suns had to make this move if they wanted a chance at the title this year, next year, and maybe the year after. This is coming from someone who thinks Bridges may become a star, and is skeptical about KD's health. I really try to stay objective, and my take on this trade is that the Suns are in a better spot for this year and next year with KD, but will likely be worse off for a couple of years after that. Best case scenario is for the Suns to win it all this year or (and?) next, while Mikal becomes a legitimate star. Works out for everyone- we get the damn ring, and I don't care what happens for a few years after that. Suns were NOT going anywhere with the roster they had or with some minor trades.

I respect your opinion but I think the Suns were a third point guard and another rotation power forward since the season they made their Finals run.

 

[Phrazbit]

The idea that the Suns were not close to contending just doesn't jive. We were in the finals 2 years ago, last year we were the best team in the league until we took the foot off the gas/covid/whatever happened. Lots of great teams have had playoff flops and didn't blow their team up afterwards. This year, when healthy, we were still one of the best teams in the league.

Do I think the Durant trade makes us better when fully healthy? Yeah. I do.

But I think the overall improvement in our title odds is not as great as it is being made out to be. I think we had a decent chance to get through the West without the trade, the west is a cluster-screw, lots of teams have a shot and I think our chances were as good as anyone's, if we emerged I think we would have been defeated by a healthy Bucks or Celtics team in the Finals.

With the trade I think, if we can stay healthy, we're a more serious West contender, but still will be defeated by a healthy Celtics or Bucks team in the Finals.

I think our title chances went from about 5% to maaaaaybe 10%.

That covers this year.

Going forward from this year I think our title odds are diminished. We're now a relatively old team with very limited ability to add talent. If KD continues to miss half the season and if Booker has more seasons of missing 20-30 games, we're going to struggle to avoid the play in. We need our training staff to step it up big time.

Most of all, we need to hit on another Josh Okogie type player or 2. A younger player another team gave up on. The strategy of signing ring chasing vets basically never works.

 

[Mainstreet]

The sad part, the Suns may not even be able to keep Okogie once he hits free agency.

They have to find more Josh Okogie type players every season into the foreseeable future.

 

[Phrazbit]

The sad part, the Suns may not even be able to Okogie once he hits free agency.

They have to find more Josh Okogie type players every season into the foreseeable future.

We will have to dip into the MLE but I don’t see a team breaking the bank for a dude who shoots under 30% from three.

 

[Mainstreet]

We will have to dip into the MLE but I don’t see a team breaking the bank for a dude who shoots under 30% from three.

The taxpayer MLE is only about $7 million next season, so the Suns can't do a lot of dipping.

Maybe they have enough to keep Okogie and a solid addition, but the Suns will not have a lot of cash to add players no matter how one looks at it beyond the veteran minimum.

 

[Hoop Head]

The sad part, the Suns may not even be able to keep Okogie once he hits free agency.

They have to find more Josh Okogie type players every season into the foreseeable future.

I doubt Okogie will get more than the bi-annual exception. I'd be ok using that on him, or part of it. That is projected to be about $4.4 million which is 60% or so of the Tax Payer MLE, which is $7 million. Not exact figures but those are the numbers from Spotrac and they're pretty close in their estimates. Okogie's shooting woes are a blessing for our future but not necessarily his own. Getting bird rights for him is imperative and will be with any free agents we sign going forward, even early bird rights with the changes to the CBA.

 

[Mainstreet]

I doubt Okogie will get more than the bi-annual exception. I'd be ok using that on him, or part of it. That is projected to be about $4.4 million which is 60% or so of the Tax Payer MLE, which is $7 million. Not exact figures but those are the numbers from Spotrac and they're pretty close in their estimates. Okogie's shooting woes are a blessing for our future but not necessarily his own. Getting bird rights for him is imperative and will be with any free agents we sign going forward, even early bird rights with the changes to the CBA.

Even though Okogie is not the best shooter, I hope the Suns will be able to keep him for his hustle and defense. He is a clutch player.

The Suns are going to have to walk a tight rope to keep under the tax apron.

Early on, I was afraid the Suns would lose the bi-annual exception, but it looks like they will keep it if they stay under the apron.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I respect your opinion but I think the Suns were a third point guard and another rotation power forward since the season they made their Finals run.

We need to start living in reality here. Our run to the finals was marred with opponents injuries. The Lakers were without Davis for most that series (yes I know CP wasn't 100%, but Davis being out hurt them badly on both ends), Denver was down some key players and Kawhi missed most of the Clippers series. We took a 2-0 lead on the Bucks and then they seemed to flip a switch and matched our intensity and we essentially never had a shot after that. We finally play two mostly healthy teams in last year's playoffs and are pushed by the Pels and lost to the Mavs. We were a very good regular season team, but were absolutely beatable when up against another team that is talented, healthy and matched our intensity. Some minor upgrades were not going to push us to the finals because we weren't a legit title contender as is, unless things broke our way like they did in that finals run.

We needed a big change if we were going to make another run to the finals and especially if we are going to win it all. The KD trade maybe didn't have to be the specific trade, but it had to be something that added a key piece of some sort that would take pressure off Booker. Essentially it needed to be someone that could at a minimum be the 1B on offense to Booker's 1A.

 

[Phrazbit]

We need to start living in reality here. Our run to the finals was marred with opponents injuries. The Lakers were without Davis for most that series (yes I know CP wasn't 100%, but Davis being out hurt them badly on both ends), Denver was down some key players and Kawhi missed most of the Clippers series. We took a 2-0 lead on the Bucks and then they seemed to flip a switch and matched our intensity and we essentially never had a shot after that. We finally play two mostly healthy teams in last year's playoffs and are pushed by the Pels and lost to the Mavs. We were a very good regular season team, but were absolutely beatable when up against another team that is talented, healthy and matched our intensity. Some minor upgrades were not going to push us to the finals because we weren't a legit title contender as is, unless things broke our way like they did in that finals run.

We needed a big change if we were going to make another run to the finals and especially if we are going to win it all. The KD trade maybe didn't have to be the specific trade, but it had to be something that added a key piece of some sort that would take pressure off Booker. Essentially it needed to be someone that could at a minimum be the 1B on offense to Booker's 1A.

We were going to beat that Laker team regardless. If CP3 doesn't get dinged up I think we sweep them.

And we bulldozed Denver, Denver had been cruising.

Luck is always a part of a deep run. We will need it this year and any other year we want to compete too.

 

[Mainstreet]

We need to start living in reality here. Our run to the finals was marred with opponents injuries. The Lakers were without Davis for most that series (yes I know CP wasn't 100%, but Davis being out hurt them badly on both ends), Denver was down some key players and Kawhi missed most of the Clippers series. We took a 2-0 lead on the Bucks and then they seemed to flip a switch and matched our intensity and we essentially never had a shot after that. We finally play two mostly healthy teams in last year's playoffs and are pushed by the Pels and lost to the Mavs. We were a very good regular season team, but were absolutely beatable when up against another team that is talented, healthy and matched our intensity. Some minor upgrades were not going to push us to the finals because we weren't a legit title contender as is, unless things broke our way like they did in that finals run.

We needed a big change if we were going to make another run to the finals and especially if we are going to win it all. The KD trade maybe didn't have to be the specific trade, but it had to be something that added a key piece of some sort that would take pressure off Booker. Essentially it needed to be someone that could at a minimum be the 1B on offense to Booker's 1A.

Remember when Dario Saric went down in the Bucks series? The injury story runs both ways.

Something happened ln the playoffs last season for which I don't have an explanation, but it wasn't because of a lack of talent in the Dallas series.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Remember when Dario Saric went down in the Bucks series? The injury story runs both ways.

Something happened ln the playoffs last season for which I don't have an explanation, but it wasn't because of a lack of talent in the Dallas series.

I am talking about other team's star players being out. Dario is simply not a difference maker. The thing that changed is that Giannis started to be relentlessly aggressive after game two and there was literally nothing we could do about it, with or without Dario.

 

[Mainstreet]

I am talking about other team's star players being out. Dario is simply not a difference maker. The thing that changed is that Giannis started to be relentlessly aggressive after game two and there was literally nothing we could do about it, with or without Dario.

I know you were talking about the injuries to other teams but Dario counts as well.

If Saric didn't go down in the Finals, who is to say the Suns don't win that series. It was a devastating loss to the Suns interior defense and momentum.

 

[Phrazbit]

I am talking about other team's star players being out. Dario is simply not a difference maker. The thing that changed is that Giannis started to be relentlessly aggressive after game two and there was literally nothing we could do about it, with or without Dario.

We lost game's 4 and 5 and, literally, one basket made by us could have been the difference. Dario easily could have made that small of a difference.

The Bucks easily could have missed the finals entirely if Trey Young had not wrecked his ankle.

Almost all the Warriors titles came with opposing players going down against the Warriors... often from cheap shots by the Warriors.

As I said, luck will always be a factor.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

We were going to beat that Laker team regardless. If CP3 doesn't get dinged up I think we sweep them.

And we bulldozed Denver, Denver had been cruising.

Luck is always a part of a deep run. We will need it this year and any other year we want to compete too.

Denver was down their 2nd and 3rd best players. Who knows what that series is with them playing and we were fully healthy.

Calling sweep against the Lakers with a healthy CP is a bit of a stretch as Davis was just as if not more important to their success than CP was to ours. He carried them to wins in game 2 and 3 before getting injured and then we won the next 3 games.

Luck is absolutely a part and I am not saying that the finals appearance should be asterisks, but I think is safe to look at that run and say that it probably won't happen again.

 

[Phrazbit]

Denver was down their 2nd and 3rd best players. Who knows what that series is with them playing and we were fully healthy.

Calling sweep against the Lakers with a healthy CP is a bit of a stretch as Davis was just as if not more important to their success than CP was to ours. He carried them to wins in game 2 and 3 before getting injured and then we won the next 3 games.

Luck is absolutely a part and I am not saying that the finals appearance should be asterisks, but I think is safe to look at that run and say that it probably won't happen again.

Denver was not down their 2nd and 3rd best players. Porter played in that series and we worked him over.

Murray was out, but they'd been cruising for months without him and Will Barton missed one stinking game.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

To reiterate here. I am not trying to downplay the finals run, but to say that when we look at that whole run objectively while also looking at last years playoffs and the even further decline of CP it is safe to say that we were not close to making another run to the finals. The CP of that finals run could take advantage of other teams focusing too much on Booker, but the CP of this year is simply not capable of that.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Denver was not down their 2nd and 3rd best players. Porter played in that series and we worked him over.

Murray was out, but they'd been cruising for months without him and Will Barton missed one stinking game.

This is all true, overlooked Porter playing, but TBF Murray was the guy on their team that always seemed to torch us, but a decent chance we still comfortably win that series even with him playing.

 

[Hoop Head]

I am talking about other team's star players being out. Dario is simply not a difference maker. The thing that changed is that Giannis started to be relentlessly aggressive after game two and there was literally nothing we could do about it, with or without Dario.

Giannis' secondest highest scoring game in the finals was game 2. He didn't flip a switch after it. He had 42 points. The only time we contained him was when we had Dario to throw at him in game 1 and Frank also saw time. Why Frank wasn't used more is another issue but without Dario, Giannis ran rampant. Those 5 games he averaged 38, 12 boards, and 5 assists. The 1 game he played against more of a big rotation, 20 points, 17 boards, and 4 assists. So he gobbled up rebounds but at least he didn't beat us scoring. Dario was a difference maker.

To be clear though I don't think Dario specifically leads us to a title. We needed another big to play in his place and Monty didn't trust Frank so Ayton had virtually no rest. Had we had Javale, Jock or Biyombo then I believe we win that series. The Bucks didn't demolish the Suns, the Suns were within seconds and 1-2 possessions of winning games 4 & 5. Game 3 was the only game Milwaukee truly beat the Suns without the game coming down to the final minute.

 

[SirStefan32]

To reiterate here. I am not trying to downplay the finals run, but to say that when we look at that whole run objectively while also looking at last years playoffs and the even further decline of CP it is safe to say that we were not close to making another run to the finals. The CP of that finals run could take advantage of other teams focusing too much on Booker, but the CP of this year is simply not capable of that.

This is exactly right. Booker can be taken out of the game, at least at this stage of his career. Paul is just not capable of consistently leading a team when Booker gets taken out of the game. Now, KD cannot be taken out of a game, and if he is double-teamed, Booker is probably the best second option in the league. CP3 gets to be the third option, which he may still be capable of doing with some consistency. Suns just did not have enough to make a serious run at the title this year prior to the trade.

I accept the arguments about Durant's heath, Mikal's potential, etc, However, I can't accept arguments that the Suns had a shot to win it all with what they had, or with minor tweaks to the roster. They needed a Superstar, and they got the best one available.

 

[nashman]

The difference being, the Suns were loaded for a title run, perhaps into the foreseeable future if they played their cards right.

Why throw the present and future up for grabs when the Suns were already setting there with a pile of chips.

I want the Suns to win a championship.

Perhaps where we differ, I saw other paths to achieve it. This is what is frustrating.

But they didn’t have a pile of chips, we had an at the end Paul, solid Bridges, walking injury CJ, no Crowder, arguably a big in DA that would rather be elsewhere? So where is this core that was shaping into a championship team? All of this and they have failed in epic fashion the last two years, were they all of a sudden gonna get better and the rest of the NBA worse? I mean the draft picks are trash anyways as they are late round and Suns wouldn’t use them anyway just trade fodder. With Book and KD and Ayton you can almost interchange the 5 spot and PG and be a very good team for years. KD can jump shoot his way for years not like relies on athleticism for his game. New owner willing to spend get a solid young PG and we good for years…

 

[nashman]

I respect your opinion but I think the Suns were a third point guard and another rotation power forward since the season they made their Finals run.

When they made the run the west wasn’t the same let’s be real! The Warriors, Lakers, others were all down that year or in the playoffs at least. Last year we struggled with the Pelicans then got embarrassed by a hot shooting Dallas team, and Brdiges and Cam and many honestly disappeared in the playoffs. Shoot we don’t get past the Pels if CP3 doesn’t put up a historic performance and run himself out of gas … This team NEEDED Durant fact! No minor moves were putting us into honest contention.

 

[Phrazbit]

But they didn’t have a pile of chips, we had an at the end Paul, solid Bridges, walking injury CJ, no Crowder, arguably a big in DA that would rather be elsewhere? So where is this core that was shaping into a championship team? All of this and they have failed in epic fashion the last two years, were they all of a sudden gonna get better and the rest of the NBA worse? I mean the draft picks are trash anyways as they are late round and Suns wouldn’t use them anyway just trade fodder. With Book and KD and Ayton you can almost interchange the 5 spot and PG and be a very good team for years. KD can jump shoot his way for years not like relies on athleticism for his game. New owner willing to spend get a solid young PG and we good for years…

You're wildly undervaluing every aspect of what the Suns surrendered. Sure, the first round pick this year and maybe the first round pick in 2025 are going to be of marginal value, but Cam, Bridges, the picks in 27 and 29, the pick swap in 28... those are all going to be premium assets. Each individual part is likely to be worth more than Durant, in trade value, within 2 years... and I don't think that is even a remote exaggeration.

If we don't win a title in the interim, then it's a disaster.