Week 17 Snap Counts and Thoughts

[DVontel]

DYK Brian Urlacher played at New Mexico?

Or Fred Warner at BYU? Or Darius Leonard at South Carolina State(!!)?

 

[DVontel]

Really small sample size, but it feels like Zaven is already our best front 7 run defender.

 

[Stout]

Really small sample size, but it feels like Zaven is already our best front 7 run defender.

I thought I was the one for hyperbole lol He did okay when called upon. I only really noticed him flash on one play. That play was nice, but...

Then again, our front 7 run defenders are rather puke worthy!

 

[juza76]

I thought I was the one for hyperbole lol He did okay when called upon. I only really noticed him flash on one play. That play was nice, but...

Then again, our front 7 run defenders are rather puke worthy!

He didn't say Collins is good, but very likely our best run defender, and it says a lot about the subpar players we have
Lawrence is the other guy who showed some promises
Hicks and golden are horrible against the run cause their slowness, hicks use to allow 4/5 extra yards to the runner
Foku has some potential but looks pretty raw
Zach Allen doesn't have the strength to be effective in 3/4, especially against the run
Peters had a good game last week but his plays had a big fall
Jones is not good vs the run, slow too
Simmons quite often doesn't have a clue where to go

 

[Krangodnzr]

I thought I was the one for hyperbole lol He did okay when called upon. I only really noticed him flash on one play. That play was nice, but...

Then again, our front 7 run defenders are rather puke worthy!

Talk about hyperbole.

They just mostly shutdown one of the top offenses in the NFL.

 

[Stout]

Talk about hyperbole.

They just mostly shutdown one of the top offenses in the NFL.

We have an abysmal front 7 re: run stoppers. That doesn't mean the defense as a whole can't shut down an offense.

Tell me which of those front 7 would start on good teams based on their ability to stuff the run? I'll wait.

 

[overseascardfan]

Could Collins be a repeat of the mistake made with Reddick. Maybe Collins is an OLB who should focus on pass rushing. Trying to get him to master the duties of an NFL ILB his rookie year is asking a lot.

 

[Krangodnzr]

We have an abysmal front 7 re: run stoppers. That doesn't mean the defense as a whole can't shut down an offense.

Tell me which of those front 7 would start on good teams based on their ability to stuff the run? I'll wait.

There are multiple players that can stop the run. Stopping the run is a function of 7+ guys playing in concert and being in the right scheme to stop the run.

I'd argue that the Cardinals have run way too much two deep and that has given opposing offenses way to many light boxes to run against.

 

[Stout]

There are multiple players that can stop the run. Stopping the run is a function of 7+ guys playing in concert and being in the right scheme to stop the run.

I'd argue that the Cardinals have run way too much two deep and that has given opposing offenses way to many light boxes to run against.

That can be part of it. You skirted the question, though, because we don't have good run-stuffing personnel. JJ Watt is good at it, but his health can't be trusted year-in, year-out.

 

[Krangodnzr]

That can be part of it. You skirted the question, though, because we don't have good run-stuffing personnel. JJ Watt is good at it, but his health can't be trusted year-in, year-out.

Allen, Peters, Lawrence, Hicks.....there are quite a few decent run stoppers in this group.

I think the biggest issue is the damn scheme, not individual players. Vance is much more concerned (rightfully) about stopping the pass than the run.

 

[Stout]

Allen, Peters, Lawrence, Hicks.....there are quite a few decent run stoppers in this group.

I think the biggest issue is the damn scheme, not individual players. Vance is much more concerned (rightfully) about stopping the pass than the run.

Peters used to be, for sure, but I think not this year. It might've passed him by. Hicks has fallen off a lot recently, but has been a decent run stopper. Allen? Our best DL isn't a ringing endorsement. I don't think they start anywhere else in a top-10 defense.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Peters used to be, for sure, but I think not this year. It might've passed him by. Hicks has fallen off a lot recently, but has been a decent run stopper. Allen? Our best DL isn't a ringing endorsement. I don't think they start anywhere else in a top-10 defense.

The Cardinals have a top ten defense and all of these players have contributed to that.

Like I said, I think it's more scheme than individual players.

 

[cardpa]

DYK Brian Urlacher played at New Mexico?

No I did not, however one also needs to realize Collins played in the lowest level of high school football in Oklahoma. His high school was Class A. The highest in OK is 6A. Collins has played at lower levels his entire career until he met the NFL. In high school he was a QB and defender. Those small HS have players going both ways quite often due to numbers. He was a TE his first year in college. What I am saying is Collins was not ready to play in the big leagues out of college and is going to need quite a bit more seasoning before he will contribute at a meaningful level.

Unless you're a team that has the comfort and depth to draft for the future and sit players for a year or two, you don't use a first round choice on those types of players and the Cardinals are certainly not one of those teams. Right now Collins is chewed up almost $9 million in cap space for 2021 and will use over $10 million in 2022 and over $12 million in 2023. I would rather have drafted a player who would contribute in year one. There were offensive tackles, Dline, and CB that went after Collins and are starting for their teams. All positions that were a need in 2021 for the Cardinals.

MAybe Vance is the problem, I don't know but you would hope that a first round pick would eventually rise to the top over time and Collins hasn't to this point, at least not to Vance's satisfaction.

Urlacher got a break when Barry Minter the starting MLB for the Bears got injured and he excelled there. He had been the SSLB and lost that job after just one game. Urlacher at least played at the highest HS level 3A in Washington.

 

[football karma]

I think the biggest issue is the damn scheme, not individual players.

thats a portion, but not all.

Offenses love rolling 11 personnel out, and the Cards often match with nickel, taking a DL off the field -- with Zach Allen being one of remaining DL, a lighter, pass rush lineman. Without a difference making DL on the active roster, i think that tilts the advantage to the offense on running plays. I think Vance is okay with that -- figuring that if an offense starts at the 25, over the course of the offensive series the D will win a enough running plays to put them in 3rd down a few times and get off the field.

Even in base, the 3 DL the team has in the game at any point in time are average at best.

i think Simmons still misses gaps and/or tackles. Hicks gets hung up on blocks as well.

There is only so much a coordinator can do without totally compromising the pass defense

 

[Zeem_Freeze]

We have an abysmal front 7 re: run stoppers. That doesn't mean the defense as a whole can't shut down an offense.

Tell me which of those front 7 would start on good teams based on their ability to stuff the run? I'll wait.

very dramatic... I see you're having trouble gripping reality that the sky is not falling... our run defense can improve for sure but it is far from abysmal, especially given what their are asked in our scheme, as noted by Krang.

 

[Krangodnzr]

thats a portion, but not all.

Offenses love rolling 11 personnel out, and the Cards often match with nickel, taking a DL off the field -- with Zach Allen being one of remaining DL, a lighter, pass rush lineman. Without a difference making DL on the active roster, i think that tilts the advantage to the offense on running plays. I think Vance is okay with that -- figuring that if an offense starts at the 25, over the course of the offensive series the D will win a enough running plays to put them in 3rd down a few times and get off the field.

Even in base, the 3 DL the team has in the game at any point in time are average at best.

i think Simmons still misses gaps and/or tackles. Hicks gets hung up on blocks as well.

There is only so much a coordinator can do without totally compromising the pass defense

I see it too, but there are times that Vance doesn't adjust quickly when an offense starts rolling. I'd argue that a few of the losses, Vance didn't adjust until the score was tilted heavily (Lions game?!?! Panthers game?!?!).

I'm not a fan of Vance, but I wouldn't argue he is incompetent, I just feel that he doesn't change his approach at times until it's way too late.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

We have an abysmal front 7 re: run stoppers. That doesn't mean the defense as a whole can't shut down an offense.

Tell me which of those front 7 would start on good teams based on their ability to stuff the run? I'll wait.

That's an iffy argument at best. Look at the Redskins this year. Their defense was abysmal at the beginning of the year and then all of their best players started getting injured. Somehow their D started playing much better with the reserves. Alot of it is guys playing their roles and doing their job within the scheme.

 

[DVontel]

That's an iffy argument at best. Look at the Redskins this year. Their defense was abysmal at the beginning of the year and then all of their best players started getting injured. Somehow their D started playing much better with the reserves. Alot of it is guys playing their roles and doing their job within the scheme.

Because they started playing against backups & washed up has-beens.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Talk about hyperbole.

They just mostly shutdown one of the top offenses in the NFL.

Sure, we shut down Henry in Week 1 and Zeke last week, because the other team just decided they were going to stop running. Sure, Tennessee was down early so that one makes sense. Dallas called a terrible offensive game for the first 2/3rds of the game. Other than that, our run defense has been garbage.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

There are multiple players that can stop the run. Stopping the run is a function of 7+ guys playing in concert and being in the right scheme to stop the run.

I'd argue that the Cardinals have run way too much two deep and that has given opposing offenses way to many light boxes to run against.

Completely agree. The Cards have always played their best defense when Budda has been in the box. They did that a lot against Dallas.

 

[kerouac9]

I see it too, but there are times that Vance doesn't adjust quickly when an offense starts rolling. I'd argue that a few of the losses, Vance didn't adjust until the score was tilted heavily (Lions game?!?! Panthers game?!?!).

I'm not a fan of Vance, but I wouldn't argue he is incompetent, I just feel that he doesn't change his approach at times until it's way too late.

To be fair, against Carolina the Cardinals offense gave up the ball on their own 15 and 41 and the score was 14-0 before the Panthers even started a possession with the ball in their own territory.

Against the Lions the Cards held Detroit to a field goal on their opening possession and under 10 points through the 2-minute warning while the offense went Punt-punt-punt-downs in the first half.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Sure, we shut down Henry in Week 1 and Zeke last week, because the other team just decided they were going to stop running. Sure, Tennessee was down early so that one makes sense. Dallas called a terrible offensive game for the first 2/3rds of the game. Other than that, our run defense has been garbage.

In the CLE and first LA games we jumped on them early, and both went away from the run too. I agree with what you're saying to a certain extent.

But for all the gnashing of teeth about our Run D, we're still 11th in the league in yards allowed per game at 109.4. And that's through 16 games now.

IND I'm sure wanted to run it all over us, and had the opportunity to do so, but didn't really succeed. 33 carries for 126 yards.

GB was a bad game for our run defense for sure though, and the most costly example since all of their WRs were out for that game. If I fault Vance, it's for not stacking the box vs. the Packers, and making those 5th and 6th string receivers beat us.

So kind of a mixed bag for VJ this year vs. the run.

The SEA back Penny just went for a buck seventy against the Lions last week, and you can bet Carroll and Wilson will try to ride him to victory against us. Let's see how he does.

 

[Stout]

very dramatic... I see you're having trouble gripping reality that the sky is not falling... our run defense can improve for sure but it is far from abysmal, especially given what their are asked in our scheme, as noted by Krang.

Thanks for your dramatic response.

 

[Stout]

That's an iffy argument at best. Look at the Redskins this year. Their defense was abysmal at the beginning of the year and then all of their best players started getting injured. Somehow their D started playing much better with the reserves. Alot of it is guys playing their roles and doing their job within the scheme.

Guys that don't have overall talent can still come together to form a cohesive unit that, as a whole, can excel. That still doesn't make them top starters at the position.

 

[Stout]

The Cardinals have a top ten defense and all of these players have contributed to that.

Like I said, I think it's more scheme than individual players.

A lot more goes into defense than just run defense; pass defense is arguably much more important than run defense. Also, we've gotten some bad coaching against us where the opposition stops pounding the rock. I realize that's part of VJ's plan--the bend but don't break plan that hopes the other team gets impatient. That helps a defense. It also helps the defense if a scheme is put together to help them in their individual deficiencies. I agree that VJ hasn't done that well. That does not, however, mean that these players are all good run stuffers. I think we have below average run stuffers in the front 7. The secondary has done a LOT of work to save their asses on many, many occasions.