What about Jake Voskuhl?

[Chaplin]

From East Valley Tribune, here's an article about the "forgotten man" in all our discussion about acquisitions. Personally, I think he has made a huge leap, and he still can get better, even at the ripe old age of 26. I wasn't aware in the breadth of improvements he has made, especially in the area of minutes per game.

Suns See Value of Voskuhl Growing


By Mike Tulumello
East Valley Tribune
Feb. 2, 2004
For a guy only 26 years old, Jake Voskuhl had been typecast, as if the book on him already was written, with no chance of changing anything more than the punctuation.

Voskuhl was an “energy” player, as opposed to a “skilled” one, a guy whose boundless energy made him a natural reserve, a guy who could help spark a team off the bench. Or at worst, he could help prevent a team from nose-diving when a coach starts sending in the reserves.

Yet lately, he's looked an awful lot like a real, live-in-the-flesh, starting center. Saturday night in New York, for example, he was the best big man on the floor, putting up numbers roughly equal to both the Knicks' best interior players, Dikembe Mutombo and Kurt Thomas, with 18 points and eight rebounds.

More definitively, in the 19 games since he's become the starter at center, Voskuhl has averaged 8.4 points and 6.5 rebounds, while shooting 55 percent in 28 minutes per game.

“Sometimes we put a ceiling on players when we probably shouldn't,” acknowledges coach Mike D'Antoni.

The thought on Voskuhl was that he plays with so much energy, that he was good only for about 20 minutes a game. “But he's shown he can handle 30 minutes, even in back-to-back situations, with no problem,” D'Antoni points out.

It helps that Voskuhl is improving his skills, particularly on offense, so much so that it's no longer shocking when he hits a mid-range jumper.

“Your goal as a player is to get better and to do it consistently,” Voskuhl says. “I've been fortunate. I've gotten to play more. That helps a lot.”

The increased time has been a “big adjustment,” he says. “I haven't done this, playing 30 minutes consistently, over a long stretch.”

So he's trying to take care of himself off the floor more than ever, so that when he becomes fatigued, he can stay mentally sharp.

“When you get tired, you start getting a little sloppy.” Voskuhl says he's been inspired by Joe Johnson, who now plays 40 minutes a game, never misses a practice, “And he doesn't complain,” Voskuhl says.

“You're going to respect a guy like that.” Voskuhl's value was never more obvious in the only game he's missed this season: on Jan. 13, a home game vs. Denver, when he sat out because of the birth of his family's second child.

“That was a huge loss for us,” D'Antoni said of Voskuhl's absence.

No kidding. The Suns were blown out. The bottom line: Next to the Big Three of Johnson, Shawn Marion and Amare Stoudemire, Voskuhl has become the club's most valuable player.

BONUS SHOTS: By releasing the 35-year-old Scott Williams, the Suns now have the NBA's youngest roster. The Suns’ 13 players average 25.2 years, younger than Cleveland (25.5), the Los Angeles Clippers (25.9) and Utah (25.9). . .

The Rockets recently released ex-Sun Alton Ford.

 

[sunsfn]

Jake is going to be a sun for a long time. I like how he plays, but probably the one thing he does not have is shot blocking skills. I am not sure he can develop that, but maybe he can. Only thing is that he does not seem to be able to jump like many other big men. With Jake and another center that can block shots and bang people we could get very good play from the center position. Not sure White is that guy, but if he is currently overweight and that is stopping him from blocking shots (jumping) then maybe White will improve at that.

 

[George O'Brien]

Jake has improved a lot. He knows the Suns system and he can actually catch passes without fumbling half the time. He gets into the right position and makes somewhat fewer mistakes.

But Jake's limitations are still pretty glaring.

1. He cannot defend the post without help.

2. He cannot block shots.

3. He does not have enough anticipation to get into position to take charges.

4. He has no concept of where the inner circle is and is constantly getting called for blocking fouls.

5. He makes an inordinate number of charges when he catches the ball and turns.

6. He makes at least one or two "dumb" fouls every game like pressing a non-shooter beyond the arc, challenging a layup even though he can never block them, etc.

Jake IS getting better and will continue to improve. But he is a long way from being the answer for the Suns.

 

[scotsman13]

most people believe that centers take 5 years to develop. this is jake's 4 season in the nba and really a young developing player. i dont think that he will turn into a outstanding shot blocker over night but i do think that he is going to turn into a very good player on this team. you know something that is funny how fast some of these players are developing now that marbury has left.

 

[elindholm]

But Jake's limitations are still pretty glaring.

1. He cannot defend the post without help.

Compared to who? Sure, he struggles against O'Neal and Duncan, but who doesn't? When he gets the chance to defend his man one-on-one -- instead of constantly being dragged out of position for double teams or missed assignments -- he usually does fine.

2. He cannot block shots.

True, he's very unlikely ever to be an intimidating shot-blocker.

3. He does not have enough anticipation to get into position to take charges.

I disagree. He anticipates quite well but gets there just a little bit late. Right now, it is a problem, but I definitely see room for improvement. If you compare him to White or Tsakalidis there is no contest.

4. He has no concept of where the inner circle is and is constantly getting called for blocking fouls.

This ties in with (3). He doesn't get any "respect" calls, but that will change with time. In general he needs to get into position a little more quickly, but it's far from hopeless.

5. He makes an inordinate number of charges when he catches the ball and turns.

Actually, no. Most of his offensive fouls are on moving picks.

6. He makes at least one or two "dumb" fouls every game like pressing a non-shooter beyond the arc, challenging a layup even though he can never block them, etc.

And other centers don't?

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by scotsman13
most people believe that centers take 5 years to develop. this is jake's 4 season in the nba and really a young developing player. i dont think that he will turn into a outstanding shot blocker over night but i do think that he is going to turn into a very good player on this team.

He is getting better, but he is physically limited. He is not espcially long, he is listed at 245 which may be high, he is not especially strong, he has limited jumping ability, he is not especially quick, and his hands are no more than average size.

It is like the problem of having Marion or Jacobsen guarding Van Horn. No matter how hard they work on footwork, timing, anticipation, and the like; neither is ever going to be 6'11".

 

[elindholm]

He is getting better, but he is physically limited. He is not espcially long, he is listed at 245 which may be high, he is not especially strong, he has limited jumping ability, he is not especially quick, and his hands are no more than average size.

But the centers you offer as improvements have problems of their own. The reincarnation of Goliath ain't out there, so all you have to do is get a center who is competitive with the rest of the league. (O'Neal doesn't count, since he is a unique freak of nature and retiring soon anyway.) If I wanted to make a full-time pursuit out of pointing out imperfections in Dampier or Camby, I could.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Originally posted by George O'Brien
Jake has improved a lot. He knows the Suns system and he can actually catch passes without fumbling half the time. He gets into the right position and makes somewhat fewer mistakes.

But Jake's limitations are still pretty glaring.

1. He cannot defend the post without help.

2. He cannot block shots.

3. He does not have enough anticipation to get into position to take charges.

4. He has no concept of where the inner circle is and is constantly getting called for blocking fouls.

5. He makes an inordinate number of charges when he catches the ball and turns.

6. He makes at least one or two "dumb" fouls every game like pressing a non-shooter beyond the arc, challenging a layup even though he can never block them, etc.

Jake IS getting better and will continue to improve. But he is a long way from being the answer for the Suns.

7. He still does not know how to set a pick without moving.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by JCSunsfan
7. He still does not know how to set a pick without moving.

Same could be said for White, except his moving screens puts guys into the seats.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by elindholm
He is getting better, but he is physically limited. He is not espcially long, he is listed at 245 which may be high, he is not especially strong, he has limited jumping ability, he is not especially quick, and his hands are no more than average size.

But the centers you offer as improvements have problems of their own. The reincarnation of Goliath ain't out there, so all you have to do is get a center who is competitive with the rest of the league. (O'Neal doesn't count, since he is a unique freak of nature and retiring soon anyway.) If I wanted to make a full-time pursuit out of pointing out imperfections in Dampier or Camby, I could.

This is very, very strange. Not only do Eric and I pretty much agree on the Camby issue, we agree on this one as well.

What is this, The Twilight Zone??

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by elindholm
But Jake's limitations are still pretty glaring.

1. He cannot defend the post without help.

Compared to who? Sure, he struggles against O'Neal and Duncan, but who doesn't? When he gets the chance to defend his man one-on-one -- instead of constantly being dragged out of position for double teams or missed assignments -- he usually does fine.

2. He cannot block shots.

True, he's very unlikely ever to be an intimidating shot-blocker.

3. He does not have enough anticipation to get into position to take charges.

I disagree. He anticipates quite well but gets there just a little bit late. Right now, it is a problem, but I definitely see room for improvement. If you compare him to White or Tsakalidis there is no contest.

4. He has no concept of where the inner circle is and is constantly getting called for blocking fouls.

This ties in with (3). He doesn't get any "respect" calls, but that will change with time. In general he needs to get into position a little more quickly, but it's far from hopeless.

5. He makes an inordinate number of charges when he catches the ball and turns.

Actually, no. Most of his offensive fouls are on moving picks.

6. He makes at least one or two "dumb" fouls every game like pressing a non-shooter beyond the arc, challenging a layup even though he can never block them, etc.

And other centers don't?

This is what I affectionately call "nitpicking". The good things in Jake's game outweigh the bad, and there is ample reason to believe that the bad things will fade away given time.

 

[frdbtr]

Just think how good Jake would be if Kobe were here.


For more info, See my last post under the JJ thread.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by Chaplin
This is what I affectionately call "nitpicking". The good things in Jake's game outweigh the bad, and there is ample reason to believe that the bad things will fade away given time.

I am not talking about getting rid of Jake, just finding someone who is better at things he isn't.

From what I can tell, the big problem is that the guys who might be an improvement are either injury prone or have poor work ethics. The rest are either too short or too slow or too old.

Maybe the answer is just hope that Lampe will mature quickly. I think he has the potential to be a great high post center and a decent inside presence on defense. My problem is that I'm not convinced it is going to happen until his fourth year.

After watching how much impact Ratliff had on JJ in the paint, I keep hoping the Suns can get someone who can block shots and discourage guys from driving the paint. (White does it some because they think he's going to kill them ). As it is, the Suns get killed whenever teams decide to attack the basket.

The main problem I see is that the guys that might help want long term contracts, while I would prefer to have one or two year contracts that would expire when Lampe is ready to take over.

In some ways, Divac is the best choice for a short term "caretaker" center. If Voskuhl keeps getting 25 minutes and Lampe gets 10, then Divac could play 13 minutes a game and be a big help in training Lampe to be tricky.

 

[elindholm]

This is very, very strange. Not only do Eric and I pretty much agree on the Camby issue, we agree on this one as well.

And we agree on Bryant!

 

[elindholm]

From what I can tell, the big problem is that the guys who might be an improvement are either injury prone or have poor work ethics. The rest are either too short or too slow or too old.

Yep, I'd say that about sums it up. Almost every team in the league has a problem at center. But those problems will, in my opinion, basically disappear when O'Neal retires, because then everyone can go back to using players at center who are, well, more normal. From a size standpoint, it's a lot easier to match up with Yao or Duncan than with O'Neal. (Just look at how Voskuhl does against them.)

There has never been a time in league history where most teams had a 6' 11", 260+ hulk in the middle. Most centers from the 60's, 70's, or even 80's would be considered power forwards in today's game (hmm, just like most of today's centers are "really" power forwards). Even the great Bill Russell was, what, 6' 8"?

Maybe the answer is just hope that Lampe will mature quickly.

I think that the answer is to look at players instead of stereotypes. There are lots of different ways that a center can be effective.

 

[F-Dog]

Voskuhl is a pretty good player, and he's improving.

But, the Suns are in last place, they have cap room to chase a free agent, and where else do they need help?


I mean, Casey Jacobsen is looking pretty good as a starter, too, but who has any problem with him coming off the bench next year?

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by George O'Brien
I am not talking about getting rid of Jake, just finding someone who is better at things he isn't.

From what I can tell, the big problem is that the guys who might be an improvement are either injury prone or have poor work ethics. The rest are either too short or too slow or too old.

Maybe the answer is just hope that Lampe will mature quickly. I think he has the potential to be a great high post center and a decent inside presence on defense. My problem is that I'm not convinced it is going to happen until his fourth year.

After watching how much impact Ratliff had on JJ in the paint, I keep hoping the Suns can get someone who can block shots and discourage guys from driving the paint. (White does it some because they think he's going to kill them ). As it is, the Suns get killed whenever teams decide to attack the basket.

The main problem I see is that the guys that might help want long term contracts, while I would prefer to have one or two year contracts that would expire when Lampe is ready to take over.

In some ways, Divac is the best choice for a short term "caretaker" center. If Voskuhl keeps getting 25 minutes and Lampe gets 10, then Divac could play 13 minutes a game and be a big help in training Lampe to be tricky.

There you go! I think you pretty much described my stance on the whole center issue right there. I agree, a shot-blocking presence would help, but there isn't any real reliable options out there. (Our last shotblocking "presence" didn't last too long, and doesn't look to be lasting long in Memphis either)

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by F-Dog
Voskuhl is a pretty good player, and he's improving.

But, the Suns are in last place, they have cap room to chase a free agent, and where else do they need help?

So what do you suggest? I am certainly against signing an injury-prone player on the 25% chance that he'll not have an injury next year.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by elindholm
This is very, very strange. Not only do Eric and I pretty much agree on the Camby issue, we agree on this one as well.

And we agree on Bryant!

My God. I'm confused as hell now. It's not supposed to be like this!

 

[F-Dog]

Originally posted by Chaplin
So what do you suggest? I am certainly against signing an injury-prone player on the 25% chance that he'll not have an injury next year.

You laughed off my suggestion a while back, remember?

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by F-Dog
You laughed off my suggestion a while back, remember?

Refresh my memory and I'll eat crow if I'm mistaken.

 

[F-Dog]

Originally posted by Chaplin
Refresh my memory and I'll eat crow if I'm mistaken.

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23466&perpage=15&pagenumber=2

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by F-Dog
http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23466&perpage=15&pagenumber=2

Oh yeah. I definitely won't eat crow about someone who wants to sign Mehmet Okur for 11/mil per.

 

[cardsunsfan]

yeah sorry but that is too much!

 

[F-Dog]

Hey, you're the one who wants to spend $20-$25m/yr on shooting guards...